WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #2

[Old Dominion]

the "red" faced man probably didn't know what video KOIN was going to show him, or did he?

Are you suggesting, it is the "old s***, they are gaining strength with the TEd story"

Or, oops, what shall I say?

Or, will anyone put this together?

What is the other problem that you mentioned?

left

What I'm saying is that I think that prior to 2001, H-B was always comfortable with any angle anyone wanted to discuss, "Big Splat", McCoy as Cooper, Weber as Cooper, even List as cooper. IIRC you mentioned headlights in the eyes of a deer when you mentioned Mayfield's name. I saw something similar on the KOIN interview where he was confronted with
this in front of a TV audience. So yes to numbers 1 and 3 above.

I still find it unbelievable that he could have told you that it was up to the "ground" crew to have investigated Teddy's domicile. What "ground" crew? I thought he was the only agent on the case, and as the main investigator this would certainly have been his business, regardless of who else was helping out.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

What I'm saying is that I think that prior to 2001, H-B was always comfortable with any angle anyone wanted to discuss, "Big Splat", McCoy as Cooper, Weber as Cooper, even List as cooper. IIRC you mentioned headlights in the eyes of a deer when you mentioned Mayfield's name. I saw something similar on the KOIN interview where he was confronted with
this in front of a TV audience. So yes to numbers 1 and 3 above.

I still find it unbelievable that he could have told you that it was up to the
"ground" crew to have investigated Teddy's domicile. What "ground" crew?
I thought he was the only agent on the case.

OD

OD

You hit the nail on the head. I totally agree. July 13, 2001 changed this case forever.

I remember seeing H-bach on tv during my introduction to this case. He was so relaxed, with his gun collection in the background of the shot, as he explained the Cooper case.

Then, during our meeting in 2001, I saw a look like "a deer in headlights", when I mentioned Mayfield.

Especially, when I told him Mayfield was not wealthy, just the opposite. And that Mayfield was a truck driver, and ran his skydiving business on nights and weekends. (Well, that is, before he miraculously became independently wealthy in 1971).

It is true, when I mentioned that Mayfield was living across from the airport in 1971, that H-bach quickly responded "that would have been the responsibility of the "perimeter" team".

What he meant by that is while the flight was circling Seattle, all available FBI agents converged on the Portland airport. Some agents interviewed the ticket agent, cabbies, insurance sales, some wrote down license plate numbers of all cars at the airport, etc. In addition, these agents were responsible for getting any leads related to any eyewitnesses, canvassing the area, etc.

So, to blame the above agents for not finding some guy who lived on a boat on the Columbia river is simply ridiculous. There would have been a "ton" of things the agents would have had to check out. Hotels, nearby houses, etc, so, I think finding out who owned every boat at the varius marina's in the area is farfetched.

Also, if Mayfield had the best alibi of anybody, it would be a moot point.

I do agree that H-bach doesn't enjoy talking about the case as much anymore, especially when it turns to Mayfield. H-bach's quotes such as "

"he didn't sound like a hijacker"
"I've never known Ted to smoke, have you"?
related to the armed robbery "he told me he was drunk"
"well, it was his voice on the phone"
"I guess I'll just have to live with the fact that I'm Ted's alibi"

these are NOT statements that an agent who is completely satisfied with his decision to clear Mayfield, based solely on a telephone call, and a judgement regarding a physical description.

No doubt about it, this case is no longer fun to talk about, when it is very, very, likely that "you" could have blown the case by not following SOP's.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

Especially, when I told him Mayfield was not wealthy, just the opposite. And that Mayfield was a truck driver, and ran his skydiving business on nights and weekends. (Well, that is, before he miraculously became independently wealthy in 1971).

I can't understand why you had to tell him that. Every suspect on Columbo has an "airtight" alibi, but he methodically solves the case. Why does he check out a logger's alibi and not Teddy's? If he REALLY wanted to clear Teddy he'd have investigated him and then and only then maybe he could have eliminated him. Even the laziest agent could hope for a quick solve by taking a bunch of skydiver photos to Tina and Flo.

It is true, when I mentioned that Mayfield was living across from the airport in 1971, that H-bach quickly responded "that would have been the responsibility of the "perimeter" team".


So, to blame the above agents for not finding some guy who lived on a boat on the Columbia river is simply ridiculous. There would have been a "ton" of things the agents would have had to check out. Hotels, nearby houses, etc, so, I think finding out who owned every boat at the varius marina's in the area is farfetched.

That's BS. The perimeter team is a catch-all for minutia the night of the jacking and not in-depth investigators. Again photos in front of the stewardesses would have resulted in Teddy's life under a magnifying glass.
Simple as that.

I do agree that H-bach doesn't enjoy talking about the case as much anymore, especially when it turns to Mayfield. H-bach's quotes such as "

"he didn't sound like a hijacker"
"I've never known Ted to smoke, have you"?
related to the armed robbery "he told me he was drunk"
"well, it was his voice on the phone"
"I guess I'll just have to live with the fact that I'm Ted's alibi"

What's interesting here is that H-B admitted he is aware that Teddy was charged with armed robbery. I thought he told you that he was unaware of this. Was he aware of this in 71? If so, why would someone who he believed was "wealthy" commit armed robbery? Doesn't add up.

No doubt about it, this case is no longer fun to talk about, when it is very, very, likely that "you" could have blown the case by not following SOP's.

left

Or didn't WANT to follow SOP's, at least not consistently. THAT...is how you bury a case .

OD

 

[leftcoast]

OD

Yes, I believe that H-bach was aware of Ted's armed robbery conviction at the time of the hijacking in november of 1971.

I asked h-bach, and he said, yes, I know.

H-bach also knew that Mayfield was popped for stealing an airplane in 1976.

Then, H-bach said that "ted told H-bach that he was "drunk" , and that is why he put a 45 on two people (grocery store)" in 1971.

You are correct. Why would a wealthy man hold up a grocery store. It doesnt' add up.

Yes, at the time of the hijacking, h-bach was aware of the armed robbery conviction of TEd.

Funny that Ted told us "someone put acid in his drink", and Ted tells H-bach he was "drunk". Does anybody see a "pattern" of drinking. ie Cooper.

Yes, it is amazing that "I" had to tell H-bach about Ted's finances.

AS an CPA, I know a thing or two about financial statements, especially which businesses are profitable, etc.

But, that didn't stop H-bach from arguing with me. I told H-bach that the skydiving business is very tough to make a profit, since airplanes, fuel, insurance, pilots, leases, chutes, begin to add up.

H-bach told me he knew more. H-bach said that the place where he keeps his plane, the guy teaches "skydiving" and that he just bought a new plane. (this is in 2001)

Fast forward to 2007. I asked Ted about the skydiving business, and he said it "stinks". It is very difficult just to break even.

Ted told us about a guy who opened a school in Mollala, and had tons of capital, and that Ted told him "not" to open the school because they are not profitable.

Well, it turns out the guy declares bankruptcy related to the skydiving school within 2 years. And guess what, he is the same guy where h-bach stores his plane.

So, once in a while, it may benefit a 'certain agent" to "listen" to people who have more expertise in certain areas.

Then again, a little more listening, just may have solved this case back in 71.

left

 

[leftcoast]

I can't understand why you had to tell him that. Every suspect on Columbo has an "airtight" alibi, but he methodically solves the case. Why does he check out a logger's alibi and not Teddy's? If he REALLY wanted to clear Teddy he'd have investigated him and then and only then maybe he could have eliminated him. Even the laziest agent could hope for a quick solve by taking a bunch of skydiver photos to Tina and Flo.

Agree. It is beyond incompetence that I would have to tell a FBI agent about the finances of a "perfect" suspect in a hijacking, some 30 years later. Even if H-bach didn't think TEd was the hijacker, he should have at least considered the possibility that TEd was "involved" somehow.


That's BS. The perimeter team is a catch-all for minutia the night of the jacking and not in-depth investigators. Again photos in front of the stewardesses would have resulted in Teddy's life under a magnifying glass.
Simple as that.

IT was just a way to save face in front of a fellow agent.


What's interesting here is that H-B admitted he is aware that Teddy was charged with armed robbery. I thought he told you that he was unaware of this. Was he aware of this in 71? If so, why would someone who he believed was "wealthy" commit armed robbery? Doesn't add up.

No, H-bach was fully aware of Ted's conviction for armed robbery. h-bach even added that we "popped" him for stealing a plane in 76, as if it was a major accomplishment. Let's see, two convictions for stealing, hmm, no, he must be wealthy.

Or didn't WANT to follow SOP's, at least not consistently. THAT...is how you bury a case .

PPossibly.

OD

//////

 

[Old Dominion]

No, H-bach was fully aware of Ted's conviction for armed robbery. h-bach even added that we "popped" him for stealing a plane in 76, as if it was a major accomplishment. Let's see, two convictions for stealing, hmm, no, he must be wealthy.

And, no progress on this case in 5 (count 'em...FIVE) years and the man whose alibi you never even tested who you KNEW had been charged with armed robbery now steals a plane and is STILL not considered a suspect or reevaluated?

The $1.98 question. How hard do you have to work at *not* solving this case to make sure that you don't accidentally solve it?


OD

 

[leftcoast]

And, no progress on this case in 5 (count 'em...FIVE) years and the man whose alibi you never even tested who you KNEW had been charged with armed robbery now steals a plane and is STILL not considered a suspect or reevaluated?

The $1.98 question. How hard do you have to work at *not* solving this case to make sure that you don't accidentally solve it?


OD

It does make me wonder what was "he thinking".

Wealthy people don't stick up grocery stores, and steal airplanes.

Let's say h-bach was totally fooled until 1976.

Why in the world didn't a trained FBI agent think, hmm, Mayfield may not be wealthy, maybe is just a crook?

One does have to wonder where the FBI was on this case.

A funny side note: In 1975, a "think tank" was gathered in SAn Francisco in an effort to come up with new ideas related to the Cooper case.

Experts in hijackings, from around the united states, mostly FBI agents, including H-bach, went over the case, and ways to possibly solve the case.

Why didn't one of these experts ask H-bach for a list of the top twenty "tips" in this case, and why these people were eliminated?

IT's obvious from the sending of the army troops to inspect the flight path, the 1975 think tank, the digging up of the beach in 1980, that the "smart ones" in the FBI knew Cooper got away.

I'm wondering if the FBI upper brass, gave instructions to H-bach to sell the "big splat" theory to the public.

The FBI;s actions certainly don't suggest that they either gave up on this case, nor did they ever really feel Cooper had died. It was simply PR.

H-bachs response to this group was "give me 5,000 men, and 5 years and I'll find Cooper", when asked how long it would take to fully inspect the terrain under the flight path.

Well, give me two ordinary men, and about $10,000, and about 2,000 hours of research, and I can guarantee you Cooper. Not a bad deal, about $60,000 of time and money, versus 2 million. Of course, we had to eat our expenses and time, while H-bach was compensated by taxpayers.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

It does make me wonder what was "he thinking".

Wealthy people don't stick up grocery stores, and steal airplanes.

Let's say h-bach was totally fooled until 1976.

Why in the world didn't a trained FBI agent think, hmm, Mayfield may not be wealthy, maybe is just a crook?

One does have to wonder where the FBI was on this case.

A funny side note: In 1975, a "think tank" was gathered in SAn Francisco in an effort to come up with new ideas related to the Cooper case.

Experts in hijackings, from around the united states, mostly FBI agents, including H-bach, went over the case, and ways to possibly solve the case.

Why didn't one of these experts ask H-bach for a list of the top twenty "tips" in this case, and why these people were eliminated?

IT's obvious from the sending of the army troops to inspect the flight path, the 1975 think tank, the digging up of the beach in 1980, that the "smart ones" in the FBI knew Cooper got away.

I'm wondering if the FBI upper brass, gave instructions to H-bach to sell the "big splat" theory to the public.

The FBI;s actions certainly don't suggest that they either gave up on this case, nor did they ever really feel Cooper had died. It was simply PR.

H-bachs response to this group was "give me 5,000 men, and 5 years and I'll find Cooper", when asked how long it would take to fully inspect the terrain under the flight path.

Well, give me two ordinary men, and about $10,000, and about 2,000 hours of research, and I can guarantee you Cooper. Not a bad deal, about $60,000 of time and money, versus 2 million. Of course, we had to eat our expenses and time, while H-bach was compensated by taxpayers.

left

If you read Wikipedia and other sites this case was a thorn in the side of the FBI. Even J.Edgar in his retirement (yes he was still alive in '71) wanted this case solved. I believe it was as inconceivable to them as it is today that someone could pull this off and never be caught, especially with the skills needed.

If my theory is correct, there are a couple of reasons for this. Let me just say that the "5,000 and 5 years" plays right into H-B. Always play the "Big Splat" and "big money" + "massive man hours" and things will work themselves thin...or dissolve.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Correct

This case was a big thorn in the side of the FBI

It is true, that H-bach would exaggerate the complexity of this investigation, for self-serving reasons.

If one simply said, "yes", I guess he just got away, and outsmarted me, then what reaction would he get from the bureau and the public.

WEll, the bureau would have taken him off the case, and the public would have thought he was outmatched.

Instead, just keep on feeding the public, with the "big splat" theory, and once in a while, "stretch the truth", and tell everyone that not one single bill has ever been found in circulation.

At the same time, make sure if your H-bach that you fail to mention that there are at least a billion twenty dollar bills in circulation, and that finding one of the 10,000 bills would be extremely unlikely. Not to mention that if Cooper exchanged the money overseas, not one bank, or one individual would even have a list of the ransomed bills. Or the fact that most of the bills were so old, that once they hit circulation, they would have almost immediately been replaced by newer bills.

So, this case ended up being played out in the press.

If you find Cooper, you are a hero.

If you don't, then Cooper must be dead.

Either way, Cooper didn't get away with it.

Keep telling the public this for 35 years, and fibbing about the area where Cooper jumped, and explaining it was in the middle of the Ginford Pinchot National Forest, when in reality, the flight path was over several flat spots, including several ranches, and at least 3 different designated "drop zones" used by local skydivers.

And like OD mentioned, if you find any good suspects, make certain they are not suspects which you could have passed over during a rush to find Cooper. And the best suspect, is a dead one. Especially regarding Weber, since this way he can't be questioned as to details that only Cooper would know, such as where he jumped, what the chutes looked like, and something specific about his conversations with Tina. Funny, how nobody even interviewed John List about the Cooper case when he was captured in 1988 for murdering his family in 1971, yet, he is listed on the Wikepedia site.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

Correct

This case was a big thorn in the side of the FBI

It is true, that H-bach would exaggerate the complexity of this investigation, for self-serving reasons.

If one simply said, "yes", I guess he just got away, and outsmarted me, then what reaction would he get from the bureau and the public.

WEll, the bureau would have taken him off the case, and the public would have thought he was outmatched.

Instead, just keep on feeding the public, with the "big splat" theory, and once in a while, "stretch the truth", and tell everyone that not one single bill has ever been found in circulation.

At the same time, make sure if your H-bach that you fail to mention that there are at least a billion twenty dollar bills in circulation, and that finding one of the 10,000 bills would be extremely unlikely. Not to mention that if Cooper exchanged the money overseas, not one bank, or one individual would even have a list of the ransomed bills. Or the fact that most of the bills were so old, that once they hit circulation, they would have almost immediately been replaced by newer bills.

So, this case ended up being played out in the press.

If you find Cooper, you are a hero.

If you don't, then Cooper must be dead.

Either way, Cooper didn't get away with it.

Keep telling the public this for 35 years, and fibbing about the area where Cooper jumped, and explaining it was in the middle of the Ginford Pinchot National Forest, when in reality, the flight path was over several flat spots, including several ranches, and at least 3 different designated "drop zones" used by local skydivers.

And like OD mentioned, if you find any good suspects, make certain they are not suspects which you could have passed over during a rush to find Cooper. And the best suspect, is a dead one. Especially regarding Weber, since this way he can't be questioned as to details that only Cooper would know, such as where he jumped, what the chutes looked like, and something specific about his conversations with Tina. Funny, how nobody even interviewed John List about the Cooper case when he was captured in 1988 for murdering his family in 1971, yet, he is listed on the Wikepedia site.

left

So you're convinced that until 2001, H-B had no inkling whatsoever that Teddy-May could be involved?

OD

 

[leftcoast]

So you're convinced that until 2001, H-B had no inkling whatsoever that Teddy-May could be involved?

OD

Yes, I am definitely leaning that way. It's a working theory, not a conclusion.

Sure, many of his actions do suggest an intent to "not want to know", but, there are also many valid arguments which suggest he was simply fooled, lazy, did not follow SOP's, had tunnel vision, eliminated people without adequate investigation (this includes other suspects, that in my opinion H-bach let off the hook much too easily. Some people were never investigated simply because they had time cards showing them at work, they were too young, or other reasons other than a solid alibi), and the fatal error of "eliminating" people.

Like we have said before, nobody should have been eliminated.

You simply throw suspects into different categories, and if additional information comes in to heat up an investigation, then you add to your investigation.

In other words, H-bach would eliminate people prematurely, and regardless of new tips, would not even consider the new information. Once someone was eliminated, they went into a dark hole. Many people with tips, were never even called back. What if one of these people actually heard a confession, or saw one of the twenties, etc.

I realize it looks like a "dirty agent", and if this case happened to any other of the 10,000 FBI agents employed, I would absolutely suspect foul play.

But, based on my interviews, my open minded approach to all theories, I have yet to see any "concrete" evidence which points at this.

However, that door is wide open, and my mind could change at any moment, with the right piece of evidence.

left

 

[Old Dominion]

Yes, I am definitely leaning that way.

Sure, many of his actions do suggest an intent to "not want to know", but, there are also many valid arguments which suggest he was simply fooled, lazy, did not follow SOP's, had tunnel vision, eliminated people without adequate investigation (this includes other suspects, that in my opinion H-bach let off the hook much too easily. Some people were never investigated simply because they had time cards showing them at work, they were too young, or other reasons other than a solid alibi), and the fatal error of "eliminating" people.

So how can you reconcile this type behavior with his and the FBI's embarrassment over the years with having not solved this case? I can't imagine any personality type that wouldn't persevere and review for possible errors and omissions and reevaluate if truly interested in solving the case. FBI 101 does not teach this at all. Solving the case would leave him with no excuses to make.

What about the commission, or panel you talked about of agents that were assigned to this case to help out. How could H-B have survived the easiest questions they could have asked, like " what leads did you get when you interviewed the stewardesses"? Or..."which skydiver photos did you show to the eye-witness stewardesses?" H-B's (truthful) answers to these questions would have had that panel in his Supervisor's office, and filing "no f-ing wonder" findings reports throughout the Bureau in no time at all.


OD

 

[leftcoast]

Those are all excellent questions. I don't have answers to all of them.

The "think tank" that met in San francisco in 75, appears to have been a throwing out of ideas, versus looking at 'eliminated suspects". Another mistake.

So, some suggested draining Lake Merwin, and other suggestions, such as looking again at McCoy, etc. were noted.

How everything transpired is beyond me. Don't forget, by 1975, they probably had 500 suspects, which is ridiculous.

I've said it a million times, sort the tips in descending order, with the highest amount at the top, and suspects with only one call at the bottom.

9 times out of 10, your suspect will be in the top 10.

I agree this case does sound ridiculous. But, if you ever watch "cold cases" on A and E, which I always do.

I would say that at least 75% of those cold cases, are in my opinion due to lazy, inexperienced, stupid, or just errors made by investigators.

In the cold cases on a & e, these people did not purposely throw the investigation, they simply fumbled the ball.

A perfect example is the case of Michael Skakel in Ct., the Martha Moxley case. The detective was in over his head. He eliminated Skakel erroneously, and assumed the killer "must" be an outsider to the upscale gated community.

It wasn't until Furhman opened the case, and was able to solve it. Sure, if you wanted to, you could easily accuse the original detective of covering up the case, in order to save the Kennedy family.

But, I've seen the detective interviewed, and he is the nicest guy in the world, and admitted he was in over his head. He was actually one of the few people to assist Fuhrman, whereas the rest of the town cops didn't want an 'outsider" snooping around.

In a way, H-bach assisted us. If h-bach never had met us for lunch, this case would have died. The current FBI does not give out any information, and we would have never known if Mayfield was ever looked at.

so, if you want to call this case incompetence, which I think is most likely. It is incompetence at all levels, not just h-bach. His supervisers, the think tank, and the other agents who visited Ted's skydiving school to look at his books, and never followed up why Ted was not looked at. H-bach was not the only agent to step foot at Ted's school after the hijacking, so, why didnt' the other agents go over H-bach's head?

Sure, there is ample evidence to suggest a cover-up. However, there is also evidence to suggest gross incompetence, at all levels.

Heck, the FBI even teaches that people who volunteer to help in cases, are sometimes the perp. who is simply trying to monitor the case, and steer it in other directions. This is police 101. The overfriendly felon.

left

 

[leftcoast]

Adnoid:

question about VOR's.

Would a pilot start his or her turn at the VOR, before the Vor, or what?

Because, if you waited until you were right on top of the VOR, then obviously, your turn would take a few miles to make.

What is the general rule.

thanks in advance.

left

 

[Niner]

Who wants to make a bet that Ted jumped in the dropzone many times before 11/24, just to learn the terrain?

left

Raising my hand here!!! LOL! Still here... lurking... and haven't been able to access this site for at least 2 days - so I am WAY behind on reading...
Waiting for the BIG news breaking story!!
D.B. Cooper - arrested!!

 

[Niner]

just to clear things up, i'm matthew myers. just thought it'd be enjoyable to join the discussion. i'm the patner against crime of leftcoast.

Welcome to WS, Rightcoast!!

snip...
This has been fun to follow.

a very good investigate you two!! :clap: and I thought this case would NEVER be solved!! I think you two though did!! :dance:

snip...
I don't know what the FBI is doing. One would hope they would at least check to see if any of the 67 latents match Ted.

you would think, eh? Scandi??!! Call your friend at the FBI - "see" what's going on....

okay - off to read the last 2 pages...

 

[leftcoast]

Raising my hand here!!! LOL! Still here... lurking... and haven't been able to access this site for at least 2 days - so I am WAY behind on reading...
Waiting for the BIG news breaking story!!
D.B. Cooper - arrested!!

You and me both. IF he did it, I hope he gets caught.

I was wondering what happened to everyone, glad you are checking in.

left

 

[lorann]

Left, if you look at the far right column, you will see 3455 times this has been viewed - that's a lot. I can't contribute any technical info or even ask any technical questions - but I sure am interested. I can't image what you and right have gone through all of this time. You have done the work for years, kept an open mind until there was only one possible answer. All of this has been presented. We all follow trials here, so this is almost like when we are in jury watch...waiting for the decision to come.

 

[leftcoast]

Left, if you look at the far right column, you will see 3455 times this has been viewed - that's a lot. I can't contribute any technical info or even ask any technical questions - but I sure am interested. I can't image what you and right have gone through all of this time. You have done the work for years, kept an open mind until there was only one possible answer. All of this has been presented. We all follow trials here, so this is almost like when we are in jury watch...waiting for the decision to come.

Thanks Lorann

We started looking at this case objectively, and didn't know any of the participants. Hence, we never did have an agenda, until of course, we were satisfied that we had most likely solved the case.

I can't imagine having a stronger circumstantial case against anyway.

Of course, we do have two things going against us. Time and physical evidence.

Most of the evidence has been laundered, and the evidence from the plane, if preserved, hopefully will be matched against suspect's prints.

Of course, given that the FBI only kept the plane for 9 hours after the hijacking, it is possible they didn't collect all of the physical evidence. IF the FBI processed the seat Cooper was seated in, it is hard to believe that he didnt' shed one hair during the five hours. All we need is one hair, root and all, to match to his DNA, and this case could be prosecuted.

I know it is a long shot, but, I never give up. When I know I am right about something, I continue on, until I am proven wrong, or the project is finished. I am patient, and this case is far from over.

thanks for your continued support

left

 

[dottierainbow]

I'm continually checking on this thread, but mainly I'm a Lurker.