WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #2

[snowmman]

on page 17, 8:05PM entry


It's is the last time they say they verbally communicated with Cooper (over the PA) (he had not responded to two earlier attempts.. Hmmm maybe they didn't really hear him say NO! like they said later...i.e. maybe he was gone by 8:05 pm. Maybe the uncharacteriscally short and sharp "NO!" was some other sound. It was out of character with previous communications and he had not responded to their 2 attempts..

"305 HAVE ATTMPTD 2 OCCNS TO MAKE CTC WITH INDVDL HE DID NOT APXXX EPLY DID NOT REPLY THEN P A SYSTEM AND HE SAID EVRYTHING IS OK"
"MSP FLT OPS OK"

But interestingly there is a handwritten "PORTLAND" on the right of this entry.
Who wrote that? what does it mean?

Does it mean someone at some point in time was making a note that Portland was in sight at 8:05 pm?

The previous entry at 8:03 pm is where the erroneous temp number comes from

"305 TTL AIR TEMP MINUS 7 DEG MACH METER NO INDCTN"
"MSP FLT OPNS OK THE MACH METER WOND INDTE TIL U GET HIER"
"305 R"

The pilot was probably communicating -7C not -7F which is what everyone tried to imply.

 

[snowmman]

This is important. The 15 degree flap is NOT just a random number. The 727 has only 3 choices. 15 degrees is the typical takeoff choice.

When the transcript was talking about "ANY FLAT FROM 5 TO 40" they were talking about the plane angle I think. not flap angle. The 727 doesn't have that fine grained flap angle control like later planes. They're agreeing that it will fly with the stairs down if the gear and landing flaps are down(page 12)

The Boeing 727 was designed with three possible takeoff flap settings: 5, 15, 25.

Later, on some -200A, a 20 degree setting was also offered.

The Cooper plane was a -100.

The 15 degree setting is the standard and optimum for most conditions.

The 5 degree setting enhances 2nd segment climb grandient at the expense of accellerate/stop distance and usually was used for departure from high altitude fields or high temperatures when the runway length was long.

The 25 degree setting was good for short fields at the expense of 2nd segment climb requirements and could only be used if the weight were light.


This next info is just detail about when finer grain flap control became available:

When the DC-9 was developed, it was felt that 3 settings were too limiting and that considering actual takeoff weight, runway length, temperature etc, an optimum flap setting could be made available for every takeoff. This feature is found also on the DC10 and MD11 which have a wing design that was developed from the DC9-30 series.

For the DC10, takeoffs can be made with leading edge slat extended to the takeoff range and trailing edge flaps from zero-22 degrees. While there are physical gates/detents at zero, 15 and 22 degree positions, these are generally used for landing or go-arounds. The Dial-a-Flap selector wheel moves a detent, for the flap handle, to any desired position between zero and 22 degrees. The calculation of that setting is part of the takeoff performance calculations which include stabilizer setting, V1, VR, and V2 speeds.

rules of thump for flap positions and calculations are shown at

http://www.boeing-727.com/Data/fly%20odds/thumb.html

I'm thinking maybe Cooper didn't say "15 degrees" now...he just said maybe flaps in takeoff position or something, and the pilot relayed that as 15 degrees...i.e. the typical position (there are only 3)

This is good important new info for me.

 

[snowmman]

8:12 pm is when they note the oscillations and say he must be doing something with the "AIR STAIRS"

but then there's an 8 minute gap to the next entry at 8:20 pm where they just talk about shifting the radio frequency and using a phone

and then just one more entry at 8:24 pm..

i.e. the communication dropped off after 8:12 pm, which too coincidently is now when they say he jumped. That doesn't make sense.

Assuming they did hear him at 8:05, I think he may have jumped at any time after that. I mean another couple of minutes after 8:12 and he'd be nearer to portland/vancouver. (at 200 mph, you cover 20 miles in 6 minutes). I'm assuming they correlated flight recorder info to the time for the flight path they drew, but when Scott in 1980 said that was wrong, then who the heck knows how they came up with the line for flight path.

It's just too weird that they rely on the 3rd from last entry in this transcript to locate a possible jump zone even if the flight path was accurate. They didn't have any data for real, and they grasped at straws.

 

[snowmman]

I think there were 3 comms going on simultaneously with the pilot.
extracting notes about altitude on page 69

at 7:40 pm the pilot says they're leveling at seven thousand feet, 160 knots
at 7:51:31 pilot says "we're gonna climb out climbing up ah to ten thousand and ah we're through nine now"
at 7:51:42 pm the tower "SEA R2" says "Northwest three zero five roger report level at one zero thousand"

Note that the pilot didn't say they're at ten thousand yet...so the tower may have misheard.

the pilot does say roger to the tower on the above
The pilot says they're at ten thousand at 7:53:34
"Northwest three oh five we're levelling at ten thousand"

at 7:53:40 pm
"Airspeed in the vicinity of one seventy one eighty"
that's knots.

it's interesting that in both places of the transcripts, they were changing radio frequency right around the predicted jump zone.

at 7:59 pm, this page of the transcript mentions contacting Seattle Center on "one three three point niner"

pilot confirms "Ah one thirty three point nine"
133.9 mhz that is

so you can imagine that they are changing the frequency on the radio right about then. Maybe not paying as much attention to other stuff.

 

[snowmman]

I thought it weird that they were talking to Cooper all the way up to around 8:12pm and then nothing in the transcripts. Like they stopped trying to contact him. Like they knew he had bailed. I mean they flew for hours after that and never talked about trying to contact him in the back. It's like they knew. So why didn't they say something. I'm wondering if there were other communications not in the transcripts.

Interestingly they were supposed to signal.

page 37 of transcript

GC is ground control
P is pilot

the plane is still on the ground at this time.


(GC): 305 ground, are you free to listen?"
(P): Affirmative, go ahead. Go ahead ground, 305 listening
(GC): I i didn't think you were getting the message. 305 after you depart when the passenger or person bails out squak 77 emergency for 30 seconds then flash your landing lights at the time he bails.
(P) Okay after he bails you want 7700 and flash the landing lights 30 seconds after?
(GC): No, no. Squak 7700 for 30 seconds and blink a the time he goes out. Blink everything you've got.
(P) Okay I understand. You want me to squak emergency 7700 for 30 seconds after he goes out along with flashing the lights is that correct?
(GC) That's correct. Thank-you
(P) Thank-you we'll try it
(GC) Okay, we'll keep an eye open.

 

[KarlK]

Only an engineer would think a reserve chute would add safety to that jump.

I'm not following you. Reserve chutes are for safety, unless you're jumping low they add safety to any jump, no need to be an engineer to know that.

 

[snowmman]

I'm not following you. Reserve chutes are for safety, unless you're jumping low they add safety to any jump, no need to be an engineer to know that.

Hi Karl.

If you're jumping at night from 10,000 ft from a 727 and you're not that experienced, when would you decide you should pull the reserve after you've pulled the main? You're also likely to tangle the reserve in the failed main (say, partial deployment) unless you cut away the main. How would Cooper know how to do that on random chutes handed to him?

There's no way that having the reserve with you increases your safety margin in this scenario/probable jumper experience. The failure rate of the main is really low to start with. No reason to worry about reserves. Worry more about landing in trees if you're worried about safety.
http://www.uspa.org/about/page2/relative_safety.htm
this page answered a question about fail rates (modern..maybe worse in 1971)
http://askville.amazon.com/rate-par...ns-fatality/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=6899120
from uspa (this is modern data..maybe worse in 1971)
data gathered from http://www.uspa.org/about/page2/relative_safety.htm


The main chute will fail to deploy correctly about 0.1% of the time. That is, about 1 time every 1000 jumps. The second chute is slightly more reliable, perhaps failing 1 time every 2000 or more uses (although this number is harder to estimate accurately: reserve chutes don't need to be deployed that often).

Theoretically, the chance of a main parachute failing AND the reserve parachute deploying is well over 1 in a million. However, about 1 in 80,000 jumps ends in death. There are other reasons for this.

This is partially because when the main chute fails to deploy, it is possible that it cannot be cut away. The secondary parachute often doesn't work if the main parachute can't be cut away because it gets tangled up in it. So the most common way to die parachuting is to have the first parachute deploy poorly and not unwrap, to fail to detach from the diver's back, and then to become tangled up with the secondary chute when it is deployed. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute#Parachute_malfunctions)

Another reason the death rate is so much higher is because of human error. In fact, the vast majority of parachute deaths happen with a fully functional main parachute. Believe it or not, more people die whose chutes work fine than die with chutes that totally fail. Some jumpers simply panic and forget to pull the cord. More often, jumpers either land poorly (either too quickly, too slowly, at a bad angle, onto a sharp object, onto power lines) or get tangled up in other skydivers.



In this hijack scenario, I think if the main failed, you're dead. If you had a reserve, it would just be another thing tangled around your body when they found you.

10,000 ft at 110 mph (terminal velocity assuming you know how to spreadeagle and aren't in a swan dive, which would be faster)..you hit the ground in 1 minute.

My point is that having the reserve was "fake" extra safety. Just having it doesn't help. It's everything that has to go right for the reserve to work right after a failed main rig pull, that has little chance of success here.

 

[snowmman]

The data on this case is hopelessly polluted by long term biases.
You have to think about it as if it happened today, and you had no bias, history of newspaper stories etc.

The FBI agent in charge blew the case. He set the stage for lots of rumors, stories, bad data, that fed an image that people wanted to keep alive.

The D.B. Cooper story is more about what people wanted it to be, rather than what it is.

 

[snowmman]

maybe he asked for two chest parachutes and two backpack parachutes,
assuming he was going to get 4 independent rigs.

Then he could pick from them, depending on how comfortable he was with what he got.
That's a scenario...i.e. he just wanted a couple different types of parachutes.

I'll have to read the transcripts to see if they have just what he asked for.
Actually maybe he never asked for 4 parachutes. Let's see...I'm hunting thru the transcript.

page 1 of the transcript has this exchange
(when it starts with 305, that's communication from the plane)

305 PSGR ADV IS RIHAKING ENRTE TO EA
STEW HAS BEEN HANDED NOTE REQST 2HND THSD
AND KNAPSACK BY 5PM SEA THIS AFTNN
WANTS 2 BAK PAK PARACHUTES
WANTS MONEY IN NEGOTBL AMERICAN CURRNCY
DENOMINATION OF BILLS NOT IMPORATANT
HAS BOMB IN BRIEF CASE AND ILL USE IT IF
ANYTHING IS DONE TO BLOCK HIS REQUEST
ENRTE TO SEA

(note the ENRTE TO EA and ENRTE TO SEA) is "enroute to seattle"
ah. 2HND THSD is "two hundred thousand" abbreviation

Interesting Cooper asked for a knapsack (I guess they didn't give him one) so that was his plan for the money..not tying it around himself like he did...see he did have a good plan for carrying the money.

Okay the idea of chest packs seems to have been introduced by the team on the ground
I think...not Cooper.

page 2 of the transcripts
SEADD ARE IN CTC WITH LOCAL BANK AND
ARRANGING FOR THE MONEY ND WILL HAVE
THE TWO CHEST PACKS SOON ALREADY HAVE
THE TWO BACK PACKS

Maybe the ground team thought they were being smart by giving him chest plus back rigs. Or maybe they were just stalling for time.

So this whole thing about the training reserve may be bogus. Cooper might
have just tossed it.

There's the whole military/civilian chute backstory that's not in the transcripts. Maybe they talked to the military and then talked to Cooper again, but Cooper rejected the military chutes (as has been reported). I think it was just a verbal rejection if so. In any case, maybe the ground team started this whole 4 parachute thing...chest vs back.

I don't think cooper asked for 4 parachutes! So maybe he was smart about knowing he didn't need a reserve! Yeah! I give him props!

I still don't know where the 2nd backpack rig ended up. Supposedly it was still on the plane afterwards? If so where did it go? Cossey knew which rig Cooper jumped with...so Cossey must have saw an unused backpack rig.

Maybe the FBI just gave it back to Cossey? rather than keeping it as evidence? If so, that's embarassing to them now?

 

[snowmman]

They are visible, the metro area's glow can be seen through a cloud coverage. However I doubt Cooper would have wanted to land near a city. ,,,,,In my perspective the ideal plan would be for a hijacker to convince everyone he jumped at some remote point while the actual jump would take place elsewhere, after all once lowered the stairs would dangle out for the remainder of the flight. In such a case throwing a bag of money off the plane *could* be a diversion technique in case anyone finds it. It's far-fetched but the whole scheme was far-fetched from the start.

This is sounding more and more correct. I mean maybe the secret of his success was creating this illusion of jumping into the crazy cold woods in his leather shoes, when he actually jumped elsewhere.

If you're going to do this, you want them to think you died.

It's easy to take the point of view that everything went exactly right for Cooper. After all, he was successful and not found. McCoy failed, and he was supposed to be the more experienced jumper.

Unless Cooper died, Cooper did everything right, defacto.

So if you go back to thinking he's smart, maybe he did stash the found money on the beach. ...just musing. I'm still thinking he augered into the mud. Maybe he stashed some money once he found out they had the serials...Maybe he thought he'd be safer at spending the rest, if they found some.

 

[snowmman]

I rotated and zoomed the jpg at
http://www.fbi.gov/headlines/parachutebag122607_large.jpg

to get more detail.

The bag is labelled "PARACHUTE 24 FT. CHEST RESERVE"

so it is a 24 ft reserve like I expected. Likely the one Cooper
threw out or left with, was 24 ft also (probably flat circular)
This one was red. Don't know if anyone knows what color the "training" chute was.

this picture:
It has a name "JOHNSON" on it

It has a Part No. 4DGY154 (?it's very faint..maybe wrong)
It has a Date of MFR but can't make it out

It says MFG By (can't read..could be Switlik or Smith Parachute Company))

 

[mihaff]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/03/db.cooper.ap/index.htmlhttp://www.rr.com/flash/index.cfm?rev=10315

you can buy a cooper bill i guess.

 

[mihaff]

Selling Cooper bills:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/03/db.cooper.ap/index.html


Wonder what they will auction for?

 

[JDB]

gosh, you all are way ahead of me... I came over to post about finding the parachute - but you all are right on!! :clap:

Personally - I don't think D.B. Cooper died when he jumped... I believe Rightcoast and Leftcoast!!

Niner Sorry DB is dead on his jump.We all hre had been drawn in by LC and RC. And I have a feelimg Snowman is one of them

 

[XcomSquaddie]

Niner Sorry DB is dead on his jump.We all hre had been drawn in by LC and RC. And I have a feelimg Snowman is one of them

Did I miss something?

 

[KarlK]

This is sounding more and more correct. I mean maybe the secret of his success was creating this illusion of jumping into the crazy cold woods in his leather shoes, when he actually jumped elsewhere.

If you're going to do this, you want them to think you died.

Ideally, yes. It also allows the FBI to save face by stating they won't expend resources to pursue a hijacker who's more than likely dead, and thus insure they won't be looking for you as hard as they otherwise would and that, even if they suspect they have been mislead.

It's easy to take the point of view that everything went exactly right for Cooper. After all, he was successful and not found. McCoy failed, and he was supposed to be the more experienced jumper.

Well we know that everything went exactly right for Cooper at least until he jumped so we tend to assume that the conclusion unfolded according to plan. As for McCoy being the more experienced jumper we don't know for sure because we don't know anything about Cooper's background. He could have been anything from a former paratrooper to an accomplished civilian skydiver to a smoke jumper to a complete novice (unlikely but still). The fact that he did not use a gun makes me think he was not former military but a civilian, one not at ease with firearms, and therefore not a career criminal or terrorist.

Maybe he stashed some money once he found out they had the serials...Maybe he thought he'd be safer at spending the rest, if they found some.

Could very well be. Was the public made aware that serials had been taken? Even so since they weren't sequential most people handling the bills including bank tellers would likely not bother to compare them with a long tedious list of serials, I know I wouldn't. Basic precaution is wait a year or so before using them and he was probably good to go. FBI made a big deal that none of the money ever surfacing except for the bag found near the river was a good indication that Cooper was dead but to me it's only an indication that nobody ever reported coming across one of the serials, which would not be particularly surprising even if he had spent it.

 

[HollywoodBound]

Expert: Chute wasn't from D.B. Cooper

VANCOUVER, Wash. - A recently discovered parachute could not have been used by D.B. Cooper in 1971, says the man who packed the four chutes that were given to the mysterious skyjacker.

The torn, tangled parachute — found about a month ago by children along a dirt road near Amboy — was probably made around 1945, said Earl Cossey, who examined the chute for the FBI on Friday.

The FBI said the matter remained under investigation.

More At Link:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080401/ap_on_re_us/cooper_parachute

 

[Taximom]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,344529,00.html
Newly Found Parachute Not From 1971 Skyjacker D.B. Cooper, Says Man Who Provided Them, FBI
Tuesday , April 01, 2008
The torn, tangled parachute — found about a month ago by children along a dirt road near Amboy — was probably made around 1945, said Earl Cossey, who examined the chute for the FBI on Friday.
The FBI also said the parachute was not connected to the case. (more at link)

 

[XcomSquaddie]

Niner Sorry DB is dead on his jump.We all hre had been drawn in by LC and RC. And I have a feelimg Snowman is one of them

I'll ask again: Did I miss something?

I'm very curious about this post. The posters mentioned in it made a very methodical, convincing case for their suspect. However the quoted post implies otherwise.

If they were debunked somewhere, I would be very interested in seeing the links.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Niner]

Hi Niner.
I switched to posting on this thread that someone else created
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58128

since it deals directly with the reopen. Maybe I should have stayed here..
but it was under Cold Cases so seemed right place.

see you there maybe

Hi snowman... sorry, I did not realize that there WAS another thread for this subject! I just printed the other one out, and will give it a read! Thanks!