WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #2

[snowmman]

Neil is THE MAN.

Back in the '80s, I used to have a stack of tapes of Neil I bought used, that I had worn out and still played anyhow...Every long roadtrip had all Neil, all the time..By '99 I had downloaded basically total Neil mp3's off the 'net...and then by '05 I had panicked about the RIAA and deleted them all. ...sigh, currently no Neal in the house..I miss it.

"Old man take a look at my life I'm a lot like you..."

the best.

oh, I don't mean literally! But I can feel it

 

[georger]

The crew referenced a call to Cooper at 8:05 PM when making a statement about the pressure change, stating the pressure bump occurred 5 to 10 minutes after this. They further stated that when they felt the pressure change they were not yet to Portland but definitely in the suburbs."


[/quote]

This makes the Columbia Rvr area at Vancouver all the more tenable, in general terms, which of course brings us back to the money at Tina Bar.
(Tosaw may be right or close to it.)

Yes. 15000 at 8:01 could be a typo and probably is, because it seems out of context, except 305 had been in a climb from 7000 starting abt 7:48 with 10k reported at 7:50. At 7:59 the pilot is still climbing and suddenly wants to talk to "the Company". At 7:40 7000FT Cooper had already started and was still trying to get the stairs down. I always thought it strange that a climb at that time would suddenly commence unless Cooper ordered it, almost at the very moment there was evidence that Cooper was lowering the stairs and might be out on them. A climb at that time would not seem to favour a parachutist needing stable jump conditions!
I have always wondered if they had a plan to try and dump him (bomb or no bomb) hoping the air turbulence would take care of the problem, and Cooper. Its a question Ive always had in the back of my mind based on
a number of remarks in the transcripts. Or they had been flying stable at 10000 since abt 7:50-59and nothing Im thinking is true. Its just a facet,
because at 7:44 Scott had reported 'unable to climb above 7000' then at
7:48 he is suddeny climbing presumably with Cooper ready to jump! I may
be reading something into these transcripts that is not there? Behind all
of this was the fact of the bomb - you would want to minimise the chances of that thing going off, regardless of what Cooper did, I would think. Oscillations, bumps, et cetera do not favour a stable environment
for somebody's bomb, especially in the hands of an idiot!

Jerry

 

[georger]

hanging around.... just reading! (as not too hep on all you're talking about now!! but still here!

sorry if Ive bogged things down. How about Himmelsbach's early theory
Cooper was a food service worker? He did want to go to Mexico City
and not stop "anywhere in the USA" to refuel, olive skin, Mediterranean
look, black hair and brown eyes and all. Maybe he bailed near Reno
and walked in and somebody he knew laundered his money, after leaving
false jump indications and a wad of cash tossed out at the Columbia
he hoped would be found soon after.

It's not likely because he would have had to have better aim than Babe
Ruth! But, it's possible?

 

[snowmman]

re: food service worker

are you somehow making a list of the skills/knowledge needed for the event, and saying "food service worker" is a good match?

it would be better to make a list of the skills/knowledge first.

Compared to many of the other hijackers of the time, he had no gun. I find that amazing. I would put that skill at the top of my list. "Confident of controlling a crowd without a gun"

I can't imagine where on the list something the food service worker would have is important. I guess you're implying something about the aft stairs. Don't know what exactly though. That they can open?
Every passenger knows that too.

In any case, I don't think it's possible to theorize to a solution here. There's no money for an investigation, and it takes law enforcement capabilities to do anything. Our theorizing is pretty worthless, I think!

edit: Hey Jerry, I just reread your post on the altitudes, and it got me thinking I need to reread the transcripts. An interesting theory would be that Cooper ordered/requested some of that stuff as part of the effort in getting the stairs open. But then Scott would have reported that in the post interview, I would think. But you got me thinking enough to go reread the transcripts! You have to read the transcripts closely though. There's one part where the SEA or someone mishears 305 and copies 10000 when 305 had said they were climbing to 10000 (not there yet) and then later they say they're at 10000. So you have to read both 305 and SEA and understand if a party misheard.

 

[georger]

re: food service worker

are you somehow making a list of the skills/knowledge needed for the event, and saying "food service worker" is a good match?

it would be better to make a list of the skills/knowledge first.

Compared to many of the other hijackers of the time, he had no gun. I find that amazing. I would put that skill at the top of my list. "Confident of controlling a crowd without a gun"

I can't imagine where on the list something the food service worker would have is important. I guess you're implying something about the aft stairs. Don't know what exactly though. That they can open?
Every passenger knows that too.

In any case, I don't think it's possible to theorize to a solution here. There's no money for an investigation, and it takes law enforcement capabilities to do anything. Our theorizing is pretty worthless, I think!

edit: Hey Jerry, I just reread your post on the altitudes, and it got me thinking I need to reread the transcripts. An interesting theory would be that Cooper ordered/requested some of that stuff as part of the effort in getting the stairs open. But then Scott would have reported that in the post interview, I would think. But you got me thinking enough to go reread the transcripts! You have to read the transcripts closely though. There's one part where the SEA or someone mishears 305 and copies 10000 when 305 had said they were climbing to 10000 (not there yet) and then later they say they're at 10000. So you have to read both 305 and SEA and understand if a party misheard.

I agree. Have to read slowly and double check and cross check everything. Im working on a Timeline compiled from the transcripts and in order to be accurate and comprehensive I am having to assemble it 'very'
carefully. But Carr is 100% correct. You have to take into account time
delays between when events occurred and reporting.

The food service worker notion was not my idea but one of several ideas Himmelsbach advanced in interviews - still on YouTube video, last I knew.

I have always wondered why Cooper chose Mexico City. Did he think he
couldnt or wouldnt be extradited back from Mexico? Maybe he had family
or connections there.

 

[Albert18]

I have always wondered why Cooper chose Mexico City. Did he think he
couldnt or wouldnt be extradited back from Mexico? Maybe he had family
or connections there.

He wanted to fly south over Portland.

 

[Niner]

sorry if Ive bogged things down. How about Himmelsbach's early theory
Cooper was a food service worker? He did want to go to Mexico City
and not stop "anywhere in the USA" to refuel, olive skin, Mediterranean
look, black hair and brown eyes and all. Maybe he bailed near Reno
and walked in and somebody he knew laundered his money, after leaving
false jump indications and a wad of cash tossed out at the Columbia
he hoped would be found soon after.

It's not likely because he would have had to have better aim than Babe
Ruth! But, it's possible?

LOL! Too funny JW! Hey... anything IS possible!

 

[Niner]

snip...
Compared to many of the other hijackers of the time, he had no gun. I find that amazing. I would put that skill at the top of my list. "Confident of controlling a crowd without a gun"...

but he DID pretend to have a bomb - good for "controlling a crowd"

 

[snowmman]

I think the mind is more important than the bomb. I mean you don't want to kill yourself, so you're convincing people that you really will blow yourself and everyone else up, even though you don't want to do that. Shoot, you could earn a lot of money playing poker if you're good at doing that!

experiment:
Pick 100 people off the street.
Give them a package that you tell them is a fake bomb.
Then tell them to go into the local FBI office and get the FBI agents to give them $200k and some parachutes.

one or two people will succeed.
Most will fall apart in the process?

Just my guess. Who knows. The trick is figuring out those one or two that might succeed, what they might be like, I think?

another experiment:
how many people lose when bluffing when they play texas hold 'em?

Just throwing out some thoughts to stimulate the discussion!

 

[Sluggo]

To refresh my memory, I have a few questions about the FBI map Snowmman posted.

Line A-B is their original best guess for Cooper's jump, correct?

Line H-to top of map and Line O-R must be what they thought were the outer limits of the jump area?

What is the diagonal line that comes down from the top left side of the map and intersects at point F at the bottom of the map? (I believe that is an F) Is this the flight path?

What are the three parallel lines?

Albert 18,

The line running from the top left and exiting at the middle bottom is V-23. I have a complete description of the points and lines on my web site.

Sluggo

 

[snowmman]

hey cool, sluggo's here.
sluggo: this was the very first site I found about cooper when I first noticed the news on the parachute find.

and: I actually have trained one of my dogs to ride a skateboard. Really!

 

[georger]

Albert 18,

The line running from the top left and exiting at the middle bottom is V-23. I have a complete description of the points and lines on my web site.

Sluggo

That is a good website. Congrats... will spend some time there.
Jerry

 

[georger]

Albert 18,

The line running from the top left and exiting at the middle bottom is V-23. I have a complete description of the points and lines on my web site.

Sluggo

I spent considerable time at your website tonight and I want to commend
you for it. I think everything you have is excellent. I especially like your
facts vs myths section, your timeline, your maps are excellent, ...
everything I saw is excellent. Thanks for developing and sharing this -

 

[Sluggo]

I spent considerable time at your website tonight and I want to commend
you for it. I think everything you have is excellent. I especially like your
facts vs myths section, your timeline, your maps are excellent, ...
everything I saw is excellent. Thanks for developing and sharing this -

Thank you! :blushing: I'm having fun with it. Since I'm not a "computer geek" (actually I'm a D B Cooper geek), it takes me a while to figure out how to do what I want to with the pages.

I work very hard to try to sort fact from fiction or myth, if anyone out there sees anything that they feel can't be supported, e-mail me and talk with me about it. I really welcome everyone's help.

You may have noticed I put the Transcript and other important files up today. That was prompted by your suggestion.

Thanks again,

Sluggo

 

[TallCoolOne]

Sluggo, I have just finished up reading your website. It's very informative. I was impressed. Thank you so much for coming here and sharing the link to your site. Obviously you have put a lot of time and effort into this and I just want you to know that it's certainly appreciated!! KUDOS!!

There was one thing that I wanted to comment on whilst it is still fresh in my mind. This is concerning the widow Webber's story. She states that when her husband told her on his deathbed that he was Dan Cooper that the name meant nothing to her. She says that it wasn't until weeks later that she learned the infamous hijacker D.B. Cooper had actually called himself Dan Cooper.

Then later she recalls a time that they had visited the Northwest and that on a side trip along the Columbia River her husband had pointed to a spot and stated that was where D.B. Cooper walked out of the woods, and she had asked him how he knew that and he said maybe he was there.

Is it just me, or does she contradict herself a tad?


Or, perhaps I just inwardly want The Coasts (Left and Right, that is) to be correct in their suspicions and am being close-minded to other possibilities.....................

 

[Sluggo]

Sluggo, I have just finished up reading your website. It's very informative. I was impressed. Thank you so much for coming here and sharing the link to your site. Obviously you have put a lot of time and effort into this and I just want you to know that it's certainly appreciated!! KUDOS!!

There was one thing that I wanted to comment on whilst it is still fresh in my mind. This is concerning the widow Webber's story. She states that when her husband told her on his deathbed that he was Dan Cooper that the name meant nothing to her. She says that it wasn't until weeks later that she learned the infamous hijacker D.B. Cooper had actually called himself Dan Cooper.

Then later she recalls a time that they had visited the Northwest and that on a side trip along the Columbia River her husband had pointed to a spot and stated that was where D.B. Cooper walked out of the woods, and she had asked him how he knew that and he said maybe he was there.

Is it just me, or does she contradict herself a tad?


Or, perhaps I just inwardly want The Coasts (Left and Right, that is) to be correct in their suspicions and am being close-minded to other possibilities.....................

First let me say, I thought this was a PM. I don't always make post that are this long.

TallCoolOne (love that Screen Name),

I understand your quandary. I have been corresponding with Jo for about 5 years now, and understanding here situation (now and then (1995)) helps me to understand her language. When I talk to her on the phone, she is a different person than online (Isn’t there a country song about that?).

Here’s my read: She had a vague recognition of the name “D B Cooper”. So, on the “memory lane tour” in 1979, she had some understanding of what he was saying when he used the name “D B Cooper”.

Now, for this part, I’m going to assume that you are 40 or under, so if I’m wrong, I apologize. When Duane was dying, try to imagine her mindset. They both knew he was dying. No salvation on its way. His sister had died of the same thing. She knew he would pass in the next few hours to the next day or so. She was distraught, she was losing her husband of 13 (I believe) years, she was going to be alone in life away from her family. Now, if you were in that state, how would you respond to “I’m Dan Coou-per” (not Dan Cooper)? At the time, under the stress she was experiencing, she just didn’t make the link.

At least, that’s my read on it. I have always told Jo, that I was about the truth, and I would ask questions that were blunt and direct. I challenged her on that issue, right off the bat, during my first interview with her. I am satisfied by her response.

Now… there are some other issues that I am not as comfortable with. The “I stayed in the car and slept” statement for instance. She has given me a plausible response to my questions about that, but it is private and I can’t share it with you.

As far as my prejudices, I have told everyone that, for now, Weber is the best fit for the “If DB lived” scenario. I have no real opinion of whether he actually lived or not. I feel somewhat comfortable thinking he did. If Galen Cook’s suspect turns out to support his (Cook’s) claims, he then would be a somewhat stronger candidate. With some proof of Cook’s claims and more development on his whereabouts, I would switch in a heartbeat. You may think that is capricious, but, I have said all along; “I’m about the truth, regardless of where it takes me.

Thank you for visiting my site, it is a true labor of love, I have been so frustrated in the last 34 (or so) years trying to separate fact from myth. I appreciate your (and everyone else’s) input. Keep it coming.

By the way, you have given me the topic for my next Blog. Do you mind telling me your age?

Thanks,
Sluggo

 

[Albert18]

A few things about Duane bother me.

I think if the eyewitnesses were shown a picture of the real Cooper from the 1970's they would recognize him.

When we think of this hijacking we think of Dan Cooper or DB Cooper because this is the only connection we have. But for the real Dan Cooper wouldn't it be very different?

If the real Dan Cooper confessed wouldn't he confess to having hijacked a 727 out of Portland in the early 1970's, jumping, and surviving. Wouldn't the alias he used be incidental. The huge event in his life was hijacking a commercial airplane, not using the alias of Dan Cooper.

His confession seems to be concocted in such a way to explain why more details weren't obtained. That pattern also seems to repeat itself frequently. Jo also seems to hold back information. I think this is because she isn't sure which way the story will go next and wants to keep her powder dry.

I don't think Duane or Mayfield were Cooper.

 

[TallCoolOne]

First let me say, I thought this was a PM. I don't always make post that are this long.

TallCoolOne (love that Screen Name),

I understand your quandary. I have been corresponding with Jo for about 5 years now, and understanding here situation (now and then (1995)) helps me to understand her language. When I talk to her on the phone, she is a different person than online (Isn’t there a country song about that?).

Here’s my read: She had a vague recognition of the name “D B Cooper”. So, on the “memory lane tour” in 1979, she had some understanding of what he was saying when he used the name “D B Cooper”.

Now, for this part, I’m going to assume that you are 40 or under, so if I’m wrong, I apologize. When Duane was dying, try to imagine her mindset. They both knew he was dying. No salvation on its way. His sister had died of the same thing. She knew he would pass in the next few hours to the next day or so. She was distraught, she was losing her husband of 13 (I believe) years, she was going to be alone in life away from her family. Now, if you were in that state, how would you respond to “I’m Dan Coou-per” (not Dan Cooper)? At the time, under the stress she was experiencing, she just didn’t make the link.

At least, that’s my read on it. I have always told Jo, that I was about the truth, and I would ask questions that were blunt and direct. I challenged her on that issue, right off the bat, during my first interview with her. I am satisfied by her response.

Now… there are some other issues that I am not as comfortable with. The “I stayed in the car and slept” statement for instance. She has given me a plausible response to my questions about that, but it is private and I can’t share it with you.

As far as my prejudices, I have told everyone that, for now, Weber is the best fit for the “If DB lived” scenario. I have no real opinion of whether he actually lived or not. I feel somewhat comfortable thinking he did. If Galen Cook’s suspect turns out to support his (Cook’s) claims, he then would be a somewhat stronger candidate. With some proof of Cook’s claims and more development on his whereabouts, I would switch in a heartbeat. You may think that is capricious, but, I have said all along; “I’m about the truth, regardless of where it takes me.

Thank you for visiting my site, it is a true labor of love, I have been so frustrated in the last 34 (or so) years trying to separate fact from myth. I appreciate your (and everyone else’s) input. Keep it coming.

By the way, you have given me the topic for my next Blog. Do you mind telling me your age?

Thanks,
Sluggo

Don't mind a bit. I'm 48, just had a Birthday.

So you had personal contact with Mrs. Weber? That's cool. I know you became interested in this not long after it happened. Have you had contact with any other of the possiblities? From your website I take it that you were in a position that your interest could have been more than just a personal interest? Such as, were you involved in any of the investigation?

Amazing how much interest is still out there after so long. Seems as if whomever D.B. Cooper was, they got away with it. One has to wonder how viable DNA sources are after so many years have gone by. Do they have any of the cigarette butts that were left behind do you know? What about the glass he used for his bourbon and water? Seems they should have been able to get finger prints off that.

Who ever it was, must have really given much thought to the planning to have been so careful not to leave them much to work with. And considering the amount of time they spent on that plane, that is pretty amazing in itself!

Will the real D.B. Cooper please stand up????

 

[Sluggo]

Don't mind a bit. I'm 48, just had a Birthday.

So you had personal contact with Mrs. Weber? That's cool. I know you became interested in this not long after it happened. Have you had contact with any other of the possiblities? From your website I take it that you were in a position that your interest could have been more than just a personal interest? Such as, were you involved in any of the investigation?

Amazing how much interest is still out there after so long. Seems as if whomever D.B. Cooper was, they got away with it. One has to wonder how viable DNA sources are after so many years have gone by. Do they have any of the cigarette butts that were left behind do you know? What about the glass he used for his bourbon and water? Seems they should have been able to get finger prints off that.

Who ever it was, must have really given much thought to the planning to have been so careful not to leave them much to work with. And considering the amount of time they spent on that plane, that is pretty amazing in itself!

Will the real D.B. Cooper please stand up????

TallCoolOne,

Heavens to Betsy no… I was in no way involved in any of the investigation. I would love to have been.

I read about Jo in an old US News and World Report article that I found on the internet in February of 2003. I think it was written in 2001 or so. I was living in Eastern Washington at the time, with in-laws in Longview. So I had driven and flown (I’m a Private Pilot) in and over “D B Cooper Country” a bunch since 1993. Every time I was over there, I thought, some day I’ll come over here and look around. So I got on the Internet and found Jo on a forum and sent her a private message. Here’s what I said:

… What I would like to do is offer my services as your eyes, ears, and legs here in the pacific northwest. I won't go into a lot of detail in this "first contact" letter, but I do have considerable skills conducting interviews and could do that as well as take photos of various areas.

You alluded in the Suite101 thread that you were afraid of being deluged with contacts from scam artist, and jokesters. I understand and will not take personally any attempt to ensure (to yourself) that my intentions are just as they appear. The only way I know to do that is to answer any and all questions or challenges you might have openly and honestly.

I will send any documentation that you might request to offer assurance that I am who I say I am. Of course, I'm only offering my time and a little gas money, so I don't have anything to loose. You may ask what I am expecting to get out of this for myself, that's simple, a chance to be a part of solving one of the most puzzling mysteries of the twentieth century.

If you would like my help, please reply. If you don't reply I will assume that you do not want/need my assistance. …

So that’s how I came to know Jo. I have since moved to B’ham Alabama, so I can’t be much help to her now.

It is my understanding, the cigarette butts were sent out to a lab in Quantico, VA and are now misplaced (not lost, mind you, misplaced).


Here is Larry Carr’s statement Re: the butts:

"The cigarette butts were never in the Seattle office, they were recovered by the Las Vegas office and sent to Quantico for analysis. After processing they were returned to Las Vegas for storage. So the butts told their story back at the lab, they gave all they could give and could give no more. It's not like they were lost and never processed.

They may still be in Las Vegas for all I know, I can't find the paper work that state the items were disposed of, nor can I find the butts. Alas, another mystery to the mysteries."

The plastic cup the (one) Bourbon and Soda was served in was taken as evidence, it had been wiped and no prints were found.

Does it strike anyone odd that someone so meticulous would leave a tie and tie-clasp behind by accident? Or is it just me?

Well, it was another long post, you guys (websleuths) bring out the best in me.

As I said before, I welcome all inquires, comments, criticisms, and complements.

Sluggo

 

[Sluggo]

My newest blog is up. I was inspired by TallCoolOne, so he gets the credit AND he gets the blame.

Sluggo