WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #3

[Gardener1850]

I haven't read this whole thing yet, but here is an interesting analysis paper on whether Cooper could have survived the jump: https://martinandrade.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/dbcooperfinalupdated.pdf

 

[kemo]

There is a lot of info and analysis on the Internet. From what I can tell, the following pretty well stands up:

1) if flight 305 was on the flight path V23 ( as an airliner flying at that altitude should have been), and DB jumped at 8:13 as it is generally agreed he did, he would have landed over an area of pretty much flat farmland and pasture.

2) a reasonably experienced parachutist, landing in such terrains would probably land successfully. If he failed, the body would have been quickly found.

3) if he went out as described in #1, there is no explanation for the money turning up at Tena Bar the way it did except for someone putting it there.

4) The claim that the money never found its way into circulation is questionable since there was really no reliable means of verify if it did short of giving bank tellers a list of numbers and having them check every "20" that passed their counter. There was no "scanning" technology at the time. Some effort may have been made in the Portland/ Seattle area and perhaps Las Vegas but that is about it. US currency circulates around the country and the world.

I think it is most likely he survived and spent most of the money.

 

[KaaBoom]

4) The claim that the money never found its way into circulation is questionable since there was really no reliable means of verify if it did short of giving bank tellers a list of numbers and having them check every "20" that passed their counter. There was no "scanning" technology at the time. Some effort may have been made in the Portland/ Seattle area and perhaps Las Vegas but that is about it. US currency circulates around the country and the world.

I think it is most likely he survived and spent most of the money.

So you think the FBI is lying when they say none of the money has ever circulated? The FBI had no problem tracking the serial numbers and finding the ransom money from the Lindbergh kidnapping in 1934. But then 40 years later suddenly you think they lost the ability to track serial numbers? Sorry but I don’t think that makes any sense.

With all due respect I don’t think there is any doubt that the money has never been spent. If the money circulated, at very least, some of it would have had to show up in a bank somewhere. Also the money was scanned before it was given to Cooper. That's why they know the serial numbers. Scanning technology has existed since the 1930s.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

So you think the FBI is lying when they say none of the money has ever circulated? The FBI had no problem tracking the serial numbers and finding the ransom money from the Lindbergh kidnapping in 1934. But then 40 years later suddenly you think they lost the ability to track serial numbers? Sorry but I don’t think that makes any sense.

With all due respect I don’t think there is any doubt that the money has never been spent. If the money circulated, at very least, some of it would have had to show up in a bank somewhere. Also the money was scanned before it was given to Cooper. That's why they know the serial numbers. Scanning technology has existed since the 1930s.

BBM

The serial numbers in the Lindbergh ransom were recorded by hand. Scanning technology was a long way away.

http://blog.nj.com/hunterdon/2007/08/lindbergh_ranson_bills_surface.html

It would take 14 clerks working an eight-hour shift to list the 5,150 bills that comprised the $70,000 in ransom money, including $20,000 in $50 gold certificates.

IIRC most of the circulated bills discovered were actually the gold certificates, which raised suspicion because they had been taken out of circulation and people were supposed to have turned them in. A large amount of the money has never been located by authorities (spent, perhaps?)

In the DB Cooper case, a picture was taken of each bill.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper

FBI agents assembled the ransom money from several Seattle-area banks—10,000 unmarked 20-dollar bills, many with serial numbers beginning with the letter "L" indicating issuance by the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco, most carrying a "Series 1969-C" designation—and made a microfilm photograph of each of them.[26]

And there were apparently a number of bills that did not get photographed and serial numbers were never recorded.

http://www.pcgscurrency.com/dbcooperserials.html

During the recent examination and certification of recovered money from the famous 1971 “D. B. Cooper” skyjacking case, PCGS Currency staff members discovered nearly three dozen serial numbers that apparently had not been previously recorded by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Until recently, tracking serial numbers was a very manual and painstaking process, and subject to error due to typos, transposition, and other errors.

Here's a nifty site where you can see if the $20 bill you're carrying is part of the DB Cooper money.

http://www.check-six.com/lib/DBCooperLoot.htm

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[kemo]

DB first made his ransom request at 3:00 PM and his final flight was on its way at 7:40PM. Not a lot of time to put together 10,000 bills, microfilm them and get them to the airport. They may have tried to use only Series 1969-C serial number beginning in "L" but these were probably the most common. There is no reason to believe many of these numbers were consecutive.

Later, a list of all would have been compiled and distributed. Realistically, how many bank tellers were going to look up each $20 of that Series and Federal Reserve Bank that crossed their desk? Probably few to none.

At some point scanning technology became available that could rapidly read serial numbers on banknotes and compare them to various lists in a data base but that came well after 1980 when most of the 1969 series would have been removed from circulation. ($20 bills last an average of 7.8 years in circulation).

It is not clear that such scans are routinely used on banknotes today.

I suspect that the claim that none of the ransom money made its way into circulation was based on the fact that none was ever identified, but I doubt that it was very likely any of that money in circulation would have been identified.

The Lindberg case was solved because a bill from the ransom was traced back to the guy who spent but it was more of a fluke. The FBI did publish a pamphlet with the Serial number of every bill in the ransom payout but the case was solved because a gas station attendant wrote the license plate number of the car when he was concerned that the bill might be counterfeit. The writing was seen when the bill was being processed for removal from circulation because it was a " gold certificate".

The FBI had been aggressively monitoring banknotes from the ransom that had passed through various NYC banks but I am not aware any were located outside the metro area. My guess is that the Seattle and Portland area banks were monitored as well as they could be but DB probably took the money outside that region.

I can see why folks in Law Enforcement might want to believe that DB didn't get away with it (demonstrating that "crime doesn't pay" I guess) but I am inclined to think he did.

 

[KaaBoom]

DB first made his ransom request at 3:00 PM and his final flight was on its way at 7:40PM. Not a lot of time to put together 10,000 bills, microfilm them and get them to the airport. They may have tried to use only Series 1969-C serial number beginning in "L" but these were probably the most common. There is no reason to believe many of these numbers were consecutive.

Later, a list of all would have been compiled and distributed. Realistically, how many bank tellers were going to look up each $20 of that Series and Federal Reserve Bank that crossed their desk? Probably few to none.

At some point scanning technology became available that could rapidly read serial numbers on banknotes and compare them to various lists in a data base but that came well after 1980 when most of the 1969 series would have been removed from circulation. ($20 bills last an average of 7.8 years in circulation).

It is not clear that such scans are routinely used on banknotes today.

I suspect that the claim that none of the ransom money made its way into circulation was based on the fact that none was ever identified, but I doubt that it was very likely any of that money in circulation would have been identified.

The Lindberg case was solved because a bill from the ransom was traced back to the guy who spent but it was more of a fluke. The FBI did publish a pamphlet with the Serial number of every bill in the ransom payout but the case was solved because a gas station attendant wrote the license plate number of the car when he was concerned that the bill might be counterfeit. The writing was seen when the bill was being processed for removal from circulation because it was a " gold certificate".

The FBI had been aggressively monitoring banknotes from the ransom that had passed through various NYC banks but I am not aware any were located outside the metro area. My guess is that the Seattle and Portland area banks were monitored as well as they could be but DB probably took the money outside that region.

I can see why folks in Law Enforcement might want to believe that DB didn't get away with it (demonstrating that "crime doesn't pay" I guess) but I am inclined to think he did.

The Lindberg ransom money was successfully traced. The FBI knew where and when it was being spent. It’s not realistic to think DB Cooper could have spent his money, and then every single bill magically vaporized after it was circulated. Thats just not the way it works. If the FBI could trace serial numbers in the 1930s, they could certainly trace them in the 1970s.

 

[mrseeker]

The Lindberg ransom money was successfully traced. The FBI knew where and when it was being spent. It’s not realistic to think DB Cooper could have spent his money, and then every single bill magically vaporized after it was circulated. Thats just not the way it works. If the FBI could trace serial numbers in the 1930s, they could certainly trace them in the 1970s.

The Lindbergh money was gold certificates and even then stood out. As I recall, one of the bills were passed at a gas station, and the attendant wrote the plate number on the bill. I believe DB is dead and never got to spend it, but I am not so certain the money would have been caught if spent many miles away or overseas.

 

[KaaBoom]

The Lindbergh money was gold certificates and even then stood out. As I recall, one of the bills were passed at a gas station, and the attendant wrote the plate number on the bill. I believe DB is dead and never got to spend it, but I am not so certain the money would have been caught if spent many miles away or overseas.

It doesn’t matter if the money went overseas or not. It’s still US currency, and at some point would have to end up back in the hands of a US bank. The money doesn’t just vaporize while being circulated.

Gold certificates were standard currency in the 1930s. They would not have stood out. I’m not even sure they would stand out today, any more then any other previous generation currency would.

The gas station was just the final clue in the Lindbergh case. The FBI already knew what subway line the killer rode. They had a map of every place he spent the money. Tracing serial numbers is not difficult.

 

[mrseeker]

It doesn’t matter if the money went overseas or not. It’s still US currency, and at some point would have to end up back in the hands of a US bank. The money doesn’t just vaporize while being circulated.

Gold certificates were standard currency in the 1930s. They would not have stood out. I’m not even sure they would stand out today, any more then any other previous generation currency would.

The gas station was just the final clue in the Lindbergh case. The FBI already knew what subway line the killer rode. They had a map of every place he spent the money. Tracing serial numbers is not difficult.

I use to think that it would be easy to track serial numbers, but its not and certainly was not in 1972. It would have been done manually. and the gold certificates were going to be retired and were not that common in the 1930's. I still agree most likely he died but I don't think the fact that no bills were found in circulation is enough evidence he died. It's good evidence, but not conclusive.

 

[KaaBoom]

I use to think that it would be easy to track serial numbers, but its not and certainly was not in 1972. It would have been done manually. and the gold certificates were going to be retired and were not that common in the 1930's. I still agree most likely he died but I don't think the fact that no bills were found in circulation is enough evidence he died. It's good evidence, but not conclusive.

I agree that the currency never circulating, doesn’t prove that he died. It only proves that the money never left the forest. The high jacker could have become separated from the money.

I think better evidence that he died, is the circumstances. Jumping out of that type of aircraft, with that type of parachute, under those conditions, was extremely risky at best, and I think unlikely to be successful.

The fact that the money was abandoned, just corroborates that theory. The guy risked his life and going to prison for that money. I think it would be highly unlikely that he would just leave it behind, if he had survived.

 

[mrseeker]

I agree that the currency never circulating, doesn’t prove that he died. It only proves that the money never left the forest. The high jacker could have become separated from the money.

I think better evidence that he died, is the circumstances. Jumping out of that type of aircraft, with that type of parachute, under those conditions, was extremely risky at best, and I think unlikely to be successful.

The fact that the money was abandoned, just corroborates that theory. The guy risked his life and going to prison for that money. I think it would be highly unlikely that he would just leave it behind, if he had survived.

If I ever go hiking in those woods, I will definitely keep looking up in the trees. My guess the searchers are off by a few miles and DB is hanging there to this day, unless the shute ropes finally rotted and he fell to then ground. But as some have suggest, Mt. St Helen probably covered him under many feet of mud.

 

[KaaBoom]

If I ever go hiking in those woods, I will definitely keep looking up in the trees. My guess the searchers are off by a few miles and DB is hanging there to this day, unless the shute ropes finally rotted and he fell to then ground. But as some have suggest, Mt. St Helen probably covered him under many feet of mud.

Or he landed in the water. Where ever he landed, when Mount St. Helens erupted, he was buried. He or his money will never be found now.

 

[mrseeker]

I took a look at the flight path and the search area. I wonder why they did not go ahead and land in Portland after they knew the aft door was open, and that bounce around 8:13 pm. I guess they just feared he would blow them up if they peeked? For the $5000 to end up where it did, the plane would either need to have been miles west of their projected path, or had flown further south than was thought when he jumped. Or perhaps for some reason all or part of the money somehow stayed in the air, either caught on the plane or on its own, then drifted to earth further west or south. If it had landed in the Columbia, that would explain why it was found north of Vancouver. IF he had tied the money to a second shute, and let if drift to earth on its own, would that be possible? He would have to have pulled the shute before letting it go? The winds were out of the SSE so there would have been a northward slightly to west drift after the shute cleared the aircraft. If they were further north of the assumed drop even a little, Mt St Helen would have covered up a dead DB when it erupted a few years later. How confident are the authorities of the timeline and flight path?

 

[kemo]

A plastic laminated sheet with instructions for the drop-down stairway of a 727 was found directly under the V23 flight path but several miles north of where DB is believed to have left the aircraft at 8:13 but several miles south-west of any area that would have been impacted by the Mt St. Helens eruption. Assuming that it came from that flight it probably left the aircraft after the staircase was opened but before DB jumped because there would have been no activity in the cabin from that point on. This pretty well establishes that the aircraft was on V23 immediately before the jump, the jump occurred over the fairly flat, cleared land north of Vancouver rather than the rougher, forested country further north and the eruption of Mt St Helens did not cover any significant evidence.

 

[mrseeker]

A plastic laminated sheet with instructions for the drop-down stairway of a 727 was found directly under the V23 flight path but several miles north of where DB is believed to have left the aircraft at 8:13 but several miles south-west of any area that would have been impacted by the Mt St. Helens eruption. Assuming that it came from that flight it probably left the aircraft after the staircase was opened but before DB jumped because there would have been no activity in the cabin from that point on. This pretty well establishes that the aircraft was on V23 immediately before the jump, the jump occurred over the fairly flat, cleared land north of Vancouver rather than the rougher, forested country further north and the eruption of Mt St Helens did not cover any significant evidence.

What are your thoughts on the money found on the columbia 20 miles SW?

 

[kemo]

What are your thoughts on the money found on the columbia 20 miles SW?

I think DB stashed some of the money after he landed. Later, when he retrieved it some of it was damaged by moisture and was unusable. For whatever reason, possibly as a Red Herring, he buried it where he figured it would eventually be found.

From what I could tell, the FBI is pretty sure it had not been at that site since 1971 but otherwise it is quite a mystery. What is clear is that there were three separate bundles of money very close together but not attached. It does not seem possible that three bundles of cash drifting in the Columbia River from any point they could have entered the waterway following that flight, could have washed upon the shoreline that close together.

One bundle perhaps, but not three.

 

[KaaBoom]

What are your thoughts on the money found on the columbia 20 miles SW?

The easiest explanation is that If the money landed in the Columbia River or its tributaries, it could have drifted down the river and landed on the Tena Bar.

 

[mrseeker]

The easiest explanation is that If the money landed in the Columbia River or its tributaries, it could have drifted down the river and landed on the Tena Bar.

If the money fell where he jumped, it would be closer to the Lewis River which flows in the Columbia miles north of Portland. However where it was found it would have had to flow upstream after it reached the Columbia. That can't happen. To get where it was, it would have had to stay with the aircraft for several more minutes, then fall into the columbia upstream from Tena Bar. Not sure when the plane would have passed over that area, but the money was found 20 miles southwest of the determined jump zone. Maybe he fumbled with the money and a packet fell on the stairs..then dropped later.

 

[mrseeker]

I think DB stashed some of the money after he landed. Later, when he retrieved it some of it was damaged by moisture and was unusable. For whatever reason, possibly as a Red Herring, he buried it where he figured it would eventually be found.

From what I could tell, the FBI is pretty sure it had not been at that site since 1971 but otherwise it is quite a mystery. What is clear is that there were three separate bundles of money very close together but not attached. It does not seem possible that three bundles of cash drifting in the Columbia River from any point they could have entered the waterway following that flight, could have washed upon the shoreline that close together.

One bundle perhaps, but not three.

I understand what you are saying. But if you are going to plant a misdirect, why plant it were the chances of finding it were a million to one. I am not buying an intentional plant. This is like trying to create a unified theory. This money is an anomaly. I wonder if the money somehow got hung up and stayed with the plane until it crossed the columbia.

 

[KaaBoom]

If the money fell where he jumped, it would be closer to the Lewis River which flows in the Columbia miles north of Portland. However where it was found it would have had to flow upstream after it reached the Columbia. That can't happen. To get where it was, it would have had to stay with the aircraft for several more minutes, then fall into the columbia upstream from Tena Bar. Not sure when the plane would have passed over that area, but the money was found 20 miles southwest of the determined jump zone. Maybe he fumbled with the money and a packet fell on the stairs..then dropped later.

1. Nobody including the flight crew knows where he jumped. 2. The plane crossed the Columbia upstream from where the money was found. Cooper got on the plane in Portland, and that is where he had to get back to. He certainly would not have wanted to jump out over the Washington forests 50 miles away from civilization, and then spend two or three days walking, just to get to a small town, where everybody would already be looking for him. He would have waited until he saw Portland and the River, then he would have jumped. Good plan? Probably not, since it looks like he drown, and his body and most of the money ended up on the bottom of the Columbia, except for a few packets of money that got loose and floated to the Tena Bar.