WA WA - Elma, AsianFem 25-40, 330UFWA, Sz6 pearl Avon ring, gold earring w/5 blue sapphires, Oct'88

[wannabesleuthkk]

The article on shrooming mentioned to two types of pickers. THe commercial and the 'sustenance' harvesters that survive on this income. Sort of freelancing i guess. It said that many out of work logging truckers sart getting into the woods for harvesting. The level of aggression among the harvesters goes up, the higher the unemployment rate i would surmise.
CCM< Do the pickers' groups operate mostly solo or do they have groups with supervisors that run the workers like day laborers? having experience in the construction industry, i'm very familiar with this method. a "bossman" rounds em up in the a.m. and drops them off at site coming back later for them and their harvests. IF this were plausible, then it's possible that she didn't know her killer and she was out there and wondered into someone's turf and paid for it. Although it'd have to be a naturally super violent man for this level of violence. The jaw first really points more toward domestic violence to me.
anyway, just pitchin more ideas out there.
kk

 

[coldcaseman]

CCM, you've reflected on what you've found out there on multiple visits. as if ya'll got called out frequently. What was the typical nature of the calls that got you there, excluding finding Elma.??

thanks, kk

Do you mean at the lady's site, or the woods in general? Often, Police are called out into the woods because someone has reported trespassers or unlawful activities. Sometimes we are just travelling around the logging roads because you never know what you'll find. I returned to the ladies site about 80 times looking for more remains,

 

[coldcaseman]

One of the largest earthquakes in recent WA history was centered about 13 m. north of town of Elma in 6/01
How far are you from there, CCM, and did ya get a little shook up??

http://www.fastlanevideos.com/quakes/images/maps/wash/01/01wash_elma.jpg

kk

20 miles or so. Didn't feel a thing.

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

just to that patch of woods in general. i mean how often per month or so did some call take you out those loggin roads, excluding Elma's case. What's the typical nature of those calls.??
kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

I guess there's a great number of the asian pop, expecially cambodians, that are second gen from refugees fleeing civil war and a-holes like pol pot.

From this page i'm linking, there's links to other photo collections. Let me know if ya'll see a resemblence is ANY of them. Those last two faces i posted were the closest i've seen, imo.
kk

http://www.geogr.uni-goettingen.de/kus/pics/asia-pacific-pics.htm

 

[scandi]

Elma has a long face with a square shape:

It could be her nose that accentuates that feeling for me, and even though the artist is looking up at her a bit, her nostrils seem a bit off. Now that's being pretty picky! :slap:

Your gals seemed to have wider faces at the temple, where Elma's doesn't to me.

Scandi

ETA: Oh, the other thing I noticed was the bridge of the nose. Elma's is very narrow, your one girl has a big wide one. In real life Elma's may have been wider, as I don't think the artist had much to work with in that area of the face.

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

I'm not seein any great matches here. but have a look.

http://www.geogr.uni-goettingen.de/kus/pics/vn1991-sw-religious-ceremony-women-only-big.jpg

kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

http://www.geogr.uni-goettingen.de/kus/pics/vn3/vn1999-bremer-girl-sw-medium.jpg

kk

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

most of the faces i've seen are wider then i think Elma's was. I've got a problem with the nose too. That's why i wanna pursue the forensic anthropologists more on this one than Lyle. It's amazing what they can do nowadays.
these are still the best matches, IMO
http://www.pbase.com/kissfoto/image/57058729

http://www.pbase.com/kissfoto/image/57058728

kk

 

[scandi]

2nd row down and photo to the far left. The little girl in the red dress from 'Vietnam V', she will look a lot like Elma I think.

http://www.geogr.uni-goettingen.de/kus/pics/asia-pacific-pics.htm It's not a jpg, whatever that means, so I can't get the pic over here.

 

[docwho3]

2nd row down and photo to the far left. The little girl in the red dress from 'Vietnam V', she will look a lot like Elma I think.

http://www.geogr.uni-goettingen.de/kus/pics/asia-pacific-pics.htm It's not a jpg, whatever that means, so I can't get the pic over here.

You mean this one?
http://www.geogr.uni-goettingen.de/kus/pics/www-vn2002-hn-kids-cyclo-smaller.jpg

or this one?
http://www.geogr.uni-goettingen.de/kus/pics/vn5/www-vn2002-hn-school-girl-small.jpg

or this one?

http://www.geogr.uni-goettingen.de/kus/pics/vn5/www-vn2002-hn-kids-cyclo-small-v1.jpg

 

[scandi]

These Cambodian people have wide noses at the bottom, where as the artist has Elma's almost pixi like, don't you think? I think it is the big nostrils that make it appear as though one is looking up at her a bit. And I think the clay profile makes her look a lot older - maybe 30+. Oh, she was 28, right, Then that;s probably about right age wise the way she is depicted.

It is so hard to do that clay sculpture. Remember the guy who killed his whole family and lined then up in a row, turned up the heat I think, walked out the front door and they found him like years later working for the IRS I think. Darn, what was his name. Well the guy who did his clay profile worked on it for a long time and tried to feel the guy's personality. Then he thought the guy might be having an ego problem and want to look younger so he put those heavy dark eyeglasses on him. And when they arrested him he had on glasses just like it! That was a most unusual clay job.

Scandi

 

[scandi]

Yea Doc, that cute little girl in the snappy red dress. Now her mouth is set down low on the face, her nose isn't overpowering and the eyes are a bit closer together or maybe smaller than the other girls we've seen. Her face is a basic square. Ta Dahhhhh!

Don't you think this is what Elma would have looked like at that age?

Thanks for that. Scandi

 

[scandi]

I think Elma's eyes are up too far on her head. They should be in line with the top of the ear, but her ears are up quite far too. That broken skull must have been a really hard job. We know she did her best!

Scandi

Yes, the eyes should be about half way between the bottom of the chin and the top of the head.

Wannabe, that little girl is really a dollie.

 

[docwho3]

These Cambodian people have wide noses at the bottom, where as the artist has Elma's almost pixi like, don't you think? I think it is the big nostrils that make it appear as though one is looking up at her a bit. And I think the clay profile makes her look a lot older - maybe 30+. Oh, she was 28, right, Then that;s probably about right age wise the way she is depicted.

It is so hard to do that clay sculpture. Remember the guy who killed his whole family and lined then up in a row, turned up the heat I think, walked out the front door and they found him like years later working for the IRS I think. Darn, what was his name. Well the guy who did his clay profile worked on it for a long time and tried to feel the guy's personality. Then he thought the guy might be having an ego problem and want to look younger so he put those heavy dark eyeglasses on him. And when they arrested him he had on glasses just like it! That was a most unusual clay job.

Scandi

I guess the reason I was so vocal about needing a real person full sized image with exact duplicate clothing was that we do not have accurate facial information but we (well actually L.E. probably) know to some degree her likely body build and her height and her probable weight and L.E. knows what clothing she was wearing and even what her new shoes looked like and someone likely saw her dressed like that and might remember seeing her but who will remember seeing her with a clay face that is only a guess as to what her face and hair might have looked like without the supporting figure and body size and shoes etc. to jog the memory?


Maybe someday there will be both methods used.

 

[docwho3]

Yea Doc, that cute little girl in the snappy red dress. Now her mouth is set down low on the face, her nose isn't overpowering and the eyes are a bit closer together or maybe smaller than the other girls we've seen. Her face is a basic square. Ta Dahhhhh!

Don't you think this is what Elma would have looked like at that age?

Thanks for that. Scandi

Sounds resonable.

 

[coldcaseman]

Did you see the article re: mushrooms? CCM? it was very informative and mentioned the two unsolved from Oregon.
Besides in Elma, what other towns had higher numbers of SE asian. Montesano, Tacoma?

kk

There have been fights and even shootings in Oregon over mushroom fields. There are groups that pick mushrooms commercially, as well as couples and individuals looking for them. I'm not aware of other Police calls involving the area where the lady was found. Like I said earlier, it is a remote area. There was a K-mart store in Aberdeen (about 20 miles away) back in the late 80's that has since closed. There are numbers of SE Asians living throughout Western Washington.

 

[scandi]

I guess the reason I was so vocal about needing a real person full sized image with exact duplicate clothing was that we do not have accurate facial information but we (well actually L.E. probably) know to some degree her likely body build and her height and her probable weight and L.E. knows what clothing she was wearing and even what her new shoes looked like and someone likely saw her dressed like that and might remember seeing her but who will remember seeing her with a clay face that is only a guess as to what her face and hair might have looked like without the supporting figure and body size and shoes etc. to jog the memory?


Maybe someday there will be both methods used.

Hey Doc, that's a winner of an idea! Yu should start a company that makes snap together parts of the human body, many different sizes and shapes - a computer program would tell you the basic ones I think, and then snap the person together, dress him, and pop the head fromk the artist in place, take photos and circulate. WOW It is a possibility. They would have to make the heads out of a material more like silly putty which is more light weight.

I love it! Scandi

 

[scandi]

CCM, Did the clay artist glue the pieces of the skull together and then put those stickums on it that show depth, and then the clay?

Scandi

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

ok, i need to post something here. drag a tid bit from 'over there'.
CCM answered my query re: any xrays on Lyle. He didn't have any., but he's got some on Elma. I referenced a website i found that reminded me to find a facility or lab that might be to use some new tech to make 3d image from just skull image. It's based on 'geometric morphometrics'. Used mostly in paleoanthropology. but has been used on modern humans. here's the first website i found:
http://www.eva.mpg.de/evolution/files/morphometrics.htm
trying to simplifiy it - using sliced alignment algorithms based on anatomical landmarks on skulls and other fossils a 2d or 3d image can be recreated and flesh and features added based on analyses of their data. If you really want more scientific explanations read a few pages of the site.

be back with another in a minute.
kk