WA - Unidentified Male: "Lyle Stevik", Grays Harbor, 17 Sept 2001 - #3

[LisainWV]

I just don't think Pernell looks anything like Lyle.

 

[superunknown]

Interesting about Navajo culture and suicide. It got me to thinking more generally about the other side of the question: who are these families that don't go looking for their missing relatives? Was Lyle disowned? Did he not have any family living? Are they in another country without access to media or technology? Are they mentally ill or drug addicted? Would they have reason not to panic when they haven't had contact with him for years?

I am working on the assumption here that Lyle concealed his real identity in order to spare his loved-ones the pain and/or expense of his death. So, you'd think he wasn't a totally isolated individual. You don't need to conceal your identity if no one knows who you are in the first place.

Does anyone else have any other thoughts about this?

Great questions to ponder.

I am going to cut and paste exactly what my Navajo friend wrote to me about this, so perhaps it may explain better than I did in my previous post:

"The earlobe defect IS a Navajo trait, but it also runs in other tribes in the southwest, so I wouldn't rule out Hopi, Apache or any of the other peoples in the Southwest. But from the description, he does look like Dineh to me. Often, the Navajo way of speaking English is confused with a Canadian accent to an uneducated ear. I have a habit of making some statements sound like a question because of the way I end a sentence with a uplilt in my voice. But I don't say "eh?" as Canadians are wont to do.

I can tell you that yes, suicide is a shameful way to end one's life, and it does point to him being NA. He went to great lengths to not reveal his real name, and to "cover" his tracks. To take one's own life is considered the worst thing you can do in our culture, and it brings much shame to your family. It is simply not spoken of. Elders prefer to believe the young men died in some other fashion that to have taken their own lives, since this is considered the ultimate in cowardice. Much like the children of SS Officers and Nazi Youth in Germany, it is just not spoken about to anyone, especially 'outsiders'. "

 

[superunknown]

Here is more info that I will share that I was able to get from my Navajo friend:

She was kind enough to speak to a Dineh tribal elder who still lives on the res. (My friend does not.) This relative is a higher up Elder, is in her late 80s and apparently still very mentally sharp. She is the last surviving member of my friend's mother's dineh family.

Basically, she shied away from acknowledgement of young American Indians committing suicide in such a manner, it is a highly taboo subject among the Elders, although she did say she knows about some people who have done it. But it is very taboo, I mean, you simply DO NOT SPEAK about this, even to utter the name of someone if they've taken their own life. She did ask why we believed he was Navajo, and my friend reminded her of the earlobe defect, she laughed and reminded my friend that her own MOTHER had this same defect. (My friend had forgotten!) The defect DOES run in apparently many Navajo, especially full-bloods to have this.

My friend sent this elder relative an email link to the Doe Network page with the photos of Lyle's belongings. (Her son helped her access it.) Apparently she scoffed when she saw the photo of the belt. In the picture, the belt buckle was what she calls White Man Work, which means it probably came from Walmart, or another store. It does have NA style hash marks, but she believes it isn't silver. She says it's too plain to have been NA.

One of the things she shared about suicide is that the family of someone suspected of committing this act will be shunned should they speak of it. They mourn the person privately, and tradition says his/her name (birth name, not "christian" name), is never spoken aloud again. She personally feels for these people, calling them lost souls who are destined to wander the afterlife alone and unloved. She stated that she secretly prays for these people.

This elder also agrees that the family of this man should know what happened, even if they can never speak about it, but from what I've learned, Dineh seldom if ever report missing family members. According to my friend, and her elder relative, they just don't say things like this to the Tribal Police, because it's always turned over to the BIA. As much as possible, they police their own, and the elders know everything about everyone. But nowadays, apparently they do tend to lose contact with the young since traditions and family values are now so broken.

 

[annemc2]

Wow, rmf - that is fascinating.

Thanks for taking the time to gather and share that information.

 

[Teresa Larson]

Yes, it's been a while since I read through the boards but I did come across the 9/11 theory. It's a good one.

I think the fact that he might be gay is a reasonable guess. I was actually thinking of that when I wondered if his family disowned him. Heck, I've had friends who ended up homeless when they came out b/c their (sometimes very wealthy) families disowned them.

What would make you think Lyle had anything to do with 9/11? He was a long ways from NYC. There is nothing that would lead me to believe he was gay either. IMO....I know a lot of gay people and have never known of any one's family disowning them. I think it's terrible that your friends became homeless. Didn't they have jobs to support themselves?

 

[rhyno1974]

What would make you think Lyle had anything to do with 9/11? He was a long ways from NYC. There is nothing that would lead me to believe he was gay either. IMO....I know a lot of gay people and have never known of any one's family disowning them. I think it's terrible that your friends became homeless. Didn't they have jobs to support themselves?

I couldn't agree more. I think it is ridiculous to even speculate that he might be gay and if he was, that it had anything to do with him taking his life. There is absolutely nothing to support that.

As for 9/11 I am not sure exactly what the theroies were, but I think one was that he had something to do with the terrorists or the terrorist act. Again I think that is silly. Like you said he was miles from New York and he does not look Middle Eastern at all to me. There were probably a lot of unidentified people found around that time all over North America and are we to assume they were terrorists? As for for the other theory that he had family that was effected by the terrorist acts or was depressed over 9/11 and decided to take his life, that is possible. Those were trying and upsetting times for many.

 

[nohwheregirl]

What would make you think Lyle had anything to do with 9/11? He was a long ways from NYC. There is nothing that would lead me to believe he was gay either. IMO....I know a lot of gay people and have never known of any one's family disowning them. I think it's terrible that your friends became homeless. Didn't they have jobs to support themselves?

I don't think he had anything to do with the 9/11 *plot*, but the theory I thought was interesting was that he may have wanted his family to think that he died in the 9/11 attacks. If you're a fan of PostSecret.com, you've probably seen the postcard that was sent in that says, "Everyone who knew me before 9/11 thinks I'm dead." It may be improbable that Lyle did something similar, but not impossible.

I don't think being gay *should* be a reason for suicide, but the sad fact is that suicide (and homelessness) are much higher in the homosexual population than the rest of the population. There's nothing about Lyle himself that made me think he was gay, I'm just want to know why his family isn't looking for him. If anyone else has ideas, on this question I'd welcome them!

 

[LisainWV]

I couldn't agree more. I think it is ridiculous to even speculate that he might be gay and if he was, that it had anything to do with him taking his life. There is absolutely nothing to support that.

As for 9/11 I am not sure exactly what the theroies were, but I think one was that he had something to do with the terrorists or the terrorist act. Again I think that is silly. Like you said he was miles from New York and he does not look Middle Eastern at all to me. There were probably a lot of unidentified people found around that time all over North America and are we to assume they were terrorists? As for for the other theory that he had family that was effected by the terrorist acts or was depressed over 9/11 and decided to take his life, that is possible. Those were trying and upsetting times for many.

I posted my thoughts that he was gay. His photo just made me think that - gut instinct. I, in no way, linked it to his suicide or made further reference about it. My thoughts.

Yes, he was miles from NYC but it's pretty obvious he had travelled into the area from somewhere. If he was in Meridian ID at some point he was travelling east to west.

If you think my theory is ridiculous, please post your own and ignore mine. I will return the favor.

 

[outofthedark]

Does anyone aside from me think that maybe something undetected (i.e. an old injury) could have caused him to kill himself (such as a fracture that's not noticeable to the naked eye and could only be detectable by x-rays)

 

[rhyno1974]

I posted my thoughts that he was gay. His photo just made me think that - gut instinct. I, in no way, linked it to his suicide or made further reference about it. My thoughts.

Yes, he was miles from NYC but it's pretty obvious he had travelled into the area from somewhere. If he was in Meridian ID at some point he was travelling east to west.

If you think my theory is ridiculous, please post your own and ignore mine. I will return the favor.

I quoted Teresa's thoughts in my posting, not yours and I did that for a reason. I was agreeing with her. I was posting my own theory. It was not a shot at you in any way. The gay theory and the 9/11 theory were talked about quite a bit in past threads and I don't think you were the only one who brought it up. I see you post on this, and other threads on here and I always look forward to what you have to say. I think you are a benefit to Websleuths. I sense some friction here but I don't think there should be.

 

[Chloekins]

Does anyone aside from me think that maybe something undetected (i.e. an old injury) could have caused him to kill himself (such as a fracture that's not noticeable to the naked eye and could only be detectable by x-rays)

Full X-rays would have been taken at the PM. It is standard procedure.

 

[outofthedark]

Full X-rays would have been taken at the PM. It is standard procedure.

I checked on NCMEC to see if they ever mentioned any x-rays ever being taken of him...I'd think they would have listed that on his profile if they list dentals

 

[Teresa Larson]

Why would an old fracture cause Lyle to kill himself? People that commit suicide are emotionally distraught - mental ill. I think he was waiting for somebody to show up that day since he was seen pacing back and forth near the road. It could have been his girlfriend and when she failed to show up Lyle was so upset he decided to end it all. He had everything well planned out even making sure nobody could identify him when he was found. When the autopsy was done they would have noticed any old fractures etc.

 

[outofthedark]

Why would an old fracture cause Lyle to kill himself? People that commit suicide are emotionally distraught - mental ill. I think he was waiting for somebody to show up that day since he was seen pacing back and forth near the road. It could have been his girlfriend and when she failed to show up Lyle was so upset he decided to end it all. He had everything well planned out even making sure nobody could identify him when he was found. When the autopsy was done they would have noticed any old fractures etc.

What I meant by a fracture causing him to kill himself is that it could have a physical effect on his brain- like how a lobotomy effects brain functions, but I'm not saying that Lyle had a lobotomy...

I don't see a resemblance with Todd either.

But I do see a bit of a resemblance between Todd and 720UMSK. Although 720UMSK has no scars/earrings or green eyes

 

[Chloekins]

I checked on NCMEC to see if they ever mentioned any x-rays ever being taken of him...I'd think they would have listed that on his profile if they list dentals

It would be highly unusual if not downright unprofessional for there not to be full x-rays taken. I assume that not all information is divulged to the public and this is why we are not aware of them. Standard procedure for a PM always includes a full x-ray. This is includes full, limited, step-wise and external PMs. There may have been nothing unusual to find hence there is no mention. I have never heard of a hospital to not have a full PM ordered on a suicide victim that has not been identified before the procedure takes place. In fact suicide victims are very closely inspected in the event that things are not as they seem.

 

[coldcaseman]

It would be highly unusual if not downright unprofessional for there not to be full x-rays taken. I assume that not all information is divulged to the public and this is why we are not aware of them. Standard procedure for a PM always includes a full x-ray. This is includes full, limited, step-wise and external PMs. There may have been nothing unusual to find hence there is no mention. I have never heard of a hospital to not have a full PM ordered on a suicide victim that has not been identified before the procedure takes place. In fact suicide victims are very closely inspected in the event that things are not as they seem.

Sorry if you feel that it is unprofessional that full body x-rays weren't taken (they weren't), but the reality is that in many rural areas, autopsies are performed at funeral homes, and x-ray equipment is available at hospitals if needed, but special arrangements need to be made. We had a complete autopsy, took fingerprints to run through AFIS, took a DNA sample to run through CODIS, had a dentist put a dental chart together for NCIC. If the prints, dental info or DNA can't identify a person, a healed fracture isn't going to do it.

 

[outofthedark]

You're back CCM!

 

[wv171]

Each year 5 million persons in the U.S. suffer head injuries Of that number 2 million suffer brain injuries many of which result in permanent impairments. Many such injuries do not even require a stay in the hospital, yet they result in impairments so profound that lives are forever changed. For more information of brain injuries see our [SIZE=+1]B[/SIZE]rain Injury Types

Often the effects of head injuries are not immediately apparent. Many months may go by before such changes become apparent. For many who sustain head injuries the effects last for a few days or weeks. For many others the problems last a lifetime.
Problems such as memory loss, impaired concentration, attention disorders, mood swings, heightened arousal, personality problems, fatigue, and diminished IQ, etc., are symptomatic a neurological disorder that is caused by brain injury due to head injury. It is known as Post Concussion Syndrome, PCS. The definitive test of PCS is a battery of test known as a neuropsychological assessment. Typically, a "neuropsych" will contain, among other things, a standard IQ test as well as measurements of high level mental functioning such as memory, concentration, attention, mood, execution, and initiation. Assessments of test scores are compared to those of individuals with similar backgrounds (demographics) who do not have a history of head injury. Test performance is judged against past accomplishments as well as other influences in the personal history.

http://www.headinjury.com/faqhome.htm

I hope this little copy and paste is OK

If not contact me or MOD's Please remove it..

Head injury's will sometime effect the person year's after the accident.

You get real bad mood swing's and a number of other major mental illness from head injury's..

I know my injury from a coal mine accident you can feel where I got hit due to a concave area in the skull where the skull was cracked.. Belive it or not but I didn't even go to the hospital until after quit time and drove myself to the hospital , I only went due to I could not get the bleeding to stop and left the hospital with about 15 to 20 stitches and 2 week's off from work and about 3 year's worth of Dr. appointment's ..

But my Dr told me that some injury's are hard to find by site and feel and you need MRI or a X-Ray to spot them.. Mine very easy to find..

A lot more good reading about Head Injury's on the below link . I only paste very little infro on this subject

http://www.headinjury.com/

 

[Teresa Larson]

An old fracture did NOT cause Lyle to kill himself. I do know all about the symptoms a person can have after a head injury but committing suicide isn't one of them. Suicide is a result of an emotional - mental issue. The mental issues a person has after a head injury and issues due to mental illness are totally different. It is my opinion that Lyle was very distraught over something or someone and he decided to end it all.

 

[Lizza]

Bijan Razzaghy