WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #8

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  • #121
  • #122
There is a HUGE difference in the way juries are handled here in the US than in the way they are handled in Perugia - one being our's are typically sequestered in high profile cases. I'm curious as to how their jury selection works as well.


I think it's reasonable to think that the jury pool could have very well been biased....

from http://www.grahamlawyerblog.com/tag/jury/

"King County Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey is among the local people trying to help Amanda. Heavey took the unusual step of writing to the Italian council that regulates judges to protest the leaks from the prosecutor, police and prison officials to the tabloid press. According to a Seattle Times article he wrote “Amanda Knox is in grave danger of being convicted of the murder because of illegal and improper poisoning of public opinion and judicial opinion.” He continued: “I respectfully submit that the prosecutor’s office, police and prison employees have made illegal and false statements … These false reports have wrongfully poisoned the well of public opinion against Amanda.”"

So now we have incompetent investigators and experts, contaminated evidence, two corrupts prosecutors, a judge that makes illegal deals, lawyers that spend eleven months in a courtroom waving their arms because there is no evidence, and a jury that is too stupid to make a decision without looking to the newspapers for answers. Did I miss anything?

All this happened in a backwards, medieval town where it is normal for everyone to get drunk and stoned, and where adults that are expected to act stupid. It should be assumed that liars are simply confused, and that it is normal for people to falsely accuse innocent people because, in this particular district, 2 hours of questioning is equivalent to being deprived of the necessities of life.

All those that have been convicted in this district in Italy are victims of this same set of circumstances, and presumably everyone that believes the above would look forward to having the prisons in this particular district emptied, and the falsely convicted flown to the US so they could live persecution free lives.

As for the US Judge that injected himself into the case ... didn't he send a letter with official letterhead and then have to explain himself? Oops ... proof that the US judge did something he shouldn't have done.
 
  • #123
Some interesting things

It appears that that particular night was very windy

The front door, if not locked, opens by itself with the wind. It was a very windy night and, during the assault in Meredith’s room, the door opened by itself. It could happen, since those who entered with Meredith (never mind, now, if gently or not) didn’t know the secret of the door: that it had to always be locked

http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?...3&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=k1uQ5rt8L5XhnUxA3_Yyvw--

So you think that Meredith didn't know how to lock the front door?
 
  • #124
Indeed. Murderers usually go out of their way to avoid being the one to "discover" the body and report the crime.

Amanda most definitely went out of her way to avoid discovering the crime. She was at the cottage for some reason that morning, but we have to take her word for it that she was there to take a shower even though she had a shower at Raffaele's the night before, she spent the night at Raffaele's apt, and she went directly back to Raffaele's after the shower. Raffaele and Amanda had plans to go to Gubbio for the day but instead of preparing for the trip, they were wasting time with Amanda wandering around Perugia with a mop, and showering at a different apt.

Amanda did not alert anyone to the circumstances at the cottage while she was there, and instead of calling police, she left and then called Filomina to come to the cottage. She and Raffaele cracked the bedroom door, ensuring that the next attempt to open the bedroom door would be successful.

It's rather easy to see that Amanda wanted Filomina and her three friends to break down the door and trample the crime scene ... thus destroying the evidence. Their plan went south when police unexpectedly arrived. With the presence of the police, Amanda did not want the bedroom door to be broken down. One minute she's panicked about the door, running around the cottage, looking for the boys downstairs (even though she knew they were all away that weekend), trying to break down the door ... and the next minute she is claiming that Meredith routinely locks her door and there is no need for concern.

Why did Amanda switch from concern to unconcern? Could it be the unexpected presence of the police?
 
  • #125
I'm sorry but pretrial publicity is a fair issue and I have no intention of dropping it. No, no juror has thus far come out and said he or she was influenced by press coverage. How often do you think that happens (even when there is clear evidence from other jurors that instructions were violated)?

Inappropriate influence may be inferred from the conviction, however, since there isn't sufficient evidence to convict AK or RS.

It can also be inferred from the posts of those who support the verdicts, since I've yet to see a single poster stick to trial evidence without quickly sliding over to the realm of tabloid gossip and innuendo.

What tabloid gossip are you referring to? Could you post some so we know what you consider to be gossip based on untruth?

For example, stoned and drunk Amanda is true, Foxy Knoxy is her chosen nickname and true, sleeping around is true, lying about her boss is true, lying to police is true, changing her story is true, voluntarily confessing is true, seeing the break in and doing nothing is true, changing the time of dinner is true, claiming to leave a puddle of water on the kitchen floor over night is true, having a selectively faulty memory is true, the evidence is true, Raffaele's silly story about the knife is true ... what was said in the "tabloid gossip" that is discussed here and that is not true?
 
  • #126
While I do not know the details of this case in the depth that many here know, I can't help but feel (after seeing the movie and documentry) that Amanda was surrounded in a sea of sharks --- those around her including LE were not her friends and she was the weak link and so it became more of a case to find Amanda guilty rather than finding out what really happend that night. The irony of this was finding Rudy guilty giving him the smallest sentence.
 
  • #127
While I do not know the details of this case in the depth that many here know, I can't help but feel (after seeing the movie and documentry) that Amanda was surrounded in a sea of sharks --- those around her including LE were not her friends and she was the weak link and so it became more of a case to find Amanda guilty rather than finding out what really happend that night. The irony of this was finding Rudy guilty giving him the smallest sentence.

Although it may seem that Rudy unfairly received the shortest sentence, the reason for it is solidly based in Italian law. Amanda and Raffaele could also have opted for the fast track trial, and their sentences would also have been reduced by one third after their final appeal. There are both ups and downs in opting for the fast track, but Rudy took his chances with that legal option. One of the reasons that Rudy chose the fast track was that he feared Amanda and Raffaele would try to put all the blame on him. By fast tracking, he distanced himself from any blame the other two might put on him. The courts concluded that he was a party to the sexual assault and murder and sentenced him to the full 30 years. On appeal that was reduced to 24 years to match the sentences of the other two, and after all appeals were exhausted, the 1/3 reduction (a legal requirement for fast track trials) was applied to his sentence.

The movie was intended to portray Amanda as a victim, but we have to remember that the victim of this murder is Meredith Kercher. When police arrived at the cottage and saw the broken window, it was quickly obvious that the break in was staged because the room had been ransacked, and broken glass was on top of the ransacked items. The only conclusion possible is that whoever murdered Meredith (the real victim) first ransacked the room, then broke the window. This means that someone entered the home through the front door.

The next point is that the bloody footprint on the bathmat does not belong to Rudy. Rudy's foot is longer and narrower than Raffaele's foot. Thus we now have the fact that someone other than Rudy stepped in Meredith's blood, and then stepped on the bathmat. The footprint on the bathmat has a distinctive "hammer" toe, as does Raffaele. Those that want Amanda to be innocent have done some interesting things with photos of the footprint on the bathmat. Raffaele's and Rudy's footprints have been photoshopped as being the same size, and then all sorts of monkey business is done to say that the print on the mat belongs to Rudy. The bottom line is that experts ... those that testified in court ... have concluded that the print is Raffaele's.

Now we have Rudy walking through the front door, and more than one attacker. Rudy kept his shoes on and his bloody prints are seen going from Meredith's bedroom straight out the front door. We have a barefoot print on the bathmat belonging to someone else. Further investigation resulted in evidence that Meredith's blood was mixed with Amanda's DNA in five different areas throughout the crime scene.

What should police have concluded?
 
  • #128
So now we have incompetent investigators and experts, contaminated evidence, two corrupts prosecutors, a judge that makes illegal deals, lawyers that spend eleven months in a courtroom waving their arms because there is no evidence, and a jury that is too stupid to make a decision without looking to the newspapers for answers. Did I miss anything?

No one said the jurors were "stupid". Just that they are not above being influenced by media reports.
 
  • #129
No one said the jurors were "stupid". Just that they are not above being influenced by media reports.
Exactly. If media bias was not an issue in trials then a judge would not admonish jurors to stay away from media and there would be no need for change of venue. The potential for a juror to be influenced by media reports is very real issue in any country.
Has nothing to with stupidity, but rather human nature to get more info.
 
  • #130
No one said the jurors were "stupid". Just that they are not above being influenced by media reports.

Good to know. So this opinion has nothing to do with Italy, or Italian jurors. It is just a belief that no one can sit as a juror if the case has been discussed in the media? Jurors simply can't be trusted?
 
  • #131
Exactly. If media bias was not an issue in trials then a judge would not admonish jurors to stay away from media and there would be no need for change of venue. The potential for a juror to be influenced by media reports is very real issue in any country.
Has nothing to with stupidity, but rather human nature to get more info.

Jbean, just so I understand ... are you posting as a representative of this forum and do your comments reflect the beliefs of the owners of this forum, or are you commenting as an individual where your opinions are not representative of the owners of this forum?
 
  • #132
Good to know. So this opinion has nothing to do with Italy, or Italian jurors. It is just a belief that no one can sit as a juror if the case has been discussed in the media?
The choices don't have to be represented as being so extreme and it is not an either-or situation. "No one" is an extreme statement and it does not reflect a reasonable option IMO.

First, it is important to acknowledge that media reporting does influence potential jurors in many cases and that is a very real issue. What are the options? sequestration, admonishment, change of venue, professional jurors?
But with that said, there are lots of people that can read the media reports and put them aside andmake their own decisions based on the trial information only. But it certainly would not be easy for anyone.
 
  • #133
Jbean, just so I understand ... are you posting as a representative of this forum and do your comments reflect the beliefs of the owners of this forum, or are you commenting as an individual where your opinions are not representative of the owners of this forum?
Not sure I understand the basis for your question. Tricia can come post her opinion and any other admin or mod can post theirs. Why would I post for Kimster or Adnoid? I wouldn't. They may totally disagree with me.
 
  • #134
"Sequestered Juries: Juries are rarely sequestered from the public. Before being assigned to a sequestered jury, you will have an opportunity to discuss with the judge any conflicts that sequestration might create."

http://americanjuror.org/trial.htm



http://books.google.ca/books?id=IS7tN-c6BPQC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=%22juries+are+rarely+sequestered%22&source=bl&ots=INud08NuG5&sig=THtNkuinPLzRn_moBEnV67CSXFY&hl=en&ei=gU5pTaCEKIG-sQP0nummBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22juries%20are%20rarely%20sequestered%22&f=false

If people are generally unable to set aside any exposure they have to people like Nancy Grace, what qualifies Judges to be impartial?
 
  • #135
"Sequestered Juries: Juries are rarely sequestered from the public. Before being assigned to a sequestered jury, you will have an opportunity to discuss with the judge any conflicts that sequestration might create."

http://americanjuror.org/trial.htm



http://books.google.ca/books?id=IS7tN-c6BPQC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=%22juries+are+rarely+sequestered%22&source=bl&ots=INud08NuG5&sig=THtNkuinPLzRn_moBEnV67CSXFY&hl=en&ei=gU5pTaCEKIG-sQP0nummBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22juries%20are%20rarely%20sequestered%22&f=false

If people are generally unable to set aside any exposure they have to people like Nancy Grace, what qualifies Judges to be impartial?

Otto do you think that media has no influence on potential jurors? IMO sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. I don;t know if people are generally unable, but some are and some aren't. Have to recognize the issue to deal with it constructively. It exists, there is no way around that. To what degree? No clue.But,it is isn't an all or nothing proposition.
Depends on location, amount of exposure, if the crime is in a small or large town, involves locals or any other hundreds of variables.
Change of venue is the method in place to deal with this very real issue. It is to insure that a defendant does get an impartial jury that has not been exposed to the same amount of media and or community info as those closer to the case.

ETA: we do our best to get judges that are impartial and my guess is that most of the time they are. But it also happens that a judge may need to recuse himself for various reasons and impartiality is a big reason for a judge to recuse themselves. It is also a real issue which is why there is a mechanism in place to deal with it. is it perfect? Nope and I suppose a bum judge presides over a caase from time to time. but generally and overall we haveto hope that judges are doing what they are supposed to same with a jury.
 
  • #136
Otto do you think that media has no influence on potential jurors? IMO sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. I don;t know if people are generally unable, but some are and some aren't. Have to recognize the issue to deal with it constructively. It exists, there is no way around that. To what degree? No clue.But,it is isn't an all or nothing proposition.
Depends on location, amount of exposure, if the crime is in a small or large town, involves locals or any other hundreds of variables.
Change of venue is the method in place to deal with this very real issue. It is to insure that a defendant does get an impartial jury that has not been exposed to the same amount of media and or community info as those closer to the case.

The Italian judicial system is not the same as in the US. In the Knox trial, there were two judges on the jury. I expect that if any other member of the jury introduced someting they read in the newspaper, and attempted to argue it with the jury, that would have been exposed and the Judges would have addressed the problem. As it stands, there have no allegations that the jury acted improperly, or that there was tampering. Until such time that such allegations arise, would it not be more reasonable to assume that the jury is innocent of improper actions?

"The court is expected to announce the verdict at 6 p.m. EST, from the eight members of the jury, including two judges, who were sequestered in a room in the Perugia courthouse."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5892499-504083.html

Can we not assume that the Judges on the jury would have excused themselves if they could not be impartial, or are we to assume that not only are police, analysts, prosecutors, and jurors corrupt, but also judges?
 
  • #137
The Italian judicial system is not the same as in the US. In the Knox trial, there were two judges on the jury. I expect that if any other member of the jury introduced someting they read in the newspaper, and attempted to argue it with the jury, that would have been exposed and the Judges would have addressed the problem. As it stands, there have no allegations that the jury acted improperly, or that there was tampering. Until such time that such allegations arise, would it not be more reasonable to assume that the jury is innocent of improper actions?

"The court is expected to announce the verdict at 6 p.m. EST, from the eight members of the jury, including two judges, who were sequestered in a room in the Perugia courthouse."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5892499-504083.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5892499-504083.html
I don't think media bias is specific to a country or ethnicity. I think it is a attributable to human nature. Hard to not read the headline or listen to the news on cases that have lots of publicity. Then to unring the bell and pretend you didn't see it or hear it is a tall order for anyone. Obviously it is achievable, but still and all it is hard to impartial. But overall I wouold guess most juries do a good job. I am speaking in generalities and have no idea if anyone acted improperly in this case. But to think that someone may have reached a decision based on media reports is not an outrageous notion in any venue. It happens. Did it happen here? No idea.
 
  • #138
I don't think media bias is specific to a country or ethnicity. I think it is a attributable to human nature. Hard to not read the headline or listen to the news on cases that have lots of publicity. Then to unring the bell and pretend you didn't see it or hear it is a tall order for anyone. Obviously it is achievable, but still and all it is hard to impartial. But overall I wouold guess most juries do a good job. I am speaking in generalities and have no idea if anyone acted improperly in this case. But to think that someone may have reached a decision based on media reports is not an outrageous notion in any venue. It happens. Did it happen here? No idea.

The police, forenic analysts, prosecutors and jury in the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher have all been accused, by those that want Amanda to be innocent, as having been corrupt or incompetent. The family of Meredith Kercher does not agree. It might be a good time now to look at the list of circumstances that has been assembled regarding this case ... and then we should decide whether the jury made a decision based on reading the newspaper:

•the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito on Meredith’s bra-clasp in her locked bedroom;

•the almost-entire naked footprint of Raffaele on a bathmat that in *no way* fits that of the other male in this case – Rudy Guede;

•the fact that Raffaele’s own father blew their alibi that they were together in Raffaele’s flat at the time of the killing with indisputable telephone records;

•the DNA of Meredith Kercher on the knife in Raffaele’s flat which Raffaele himself sought to explain as having been from accidentally “pricking” Meredith’s hand in his written diary despite the fact Meredith had never been to his flat (confirmed by Amanda Knox);

•the correlation of where Meredith’s phones were found to the location of Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guedes’s flats;

•the computer records which show that no-one was at Raffaele’s computer during the time of the murder despite him claiming he was using that computer;

•Amanda’s DNA mixed with Meredith Kercher’s in five different places just feet from Meredith’s body;

•the utterly inexplicable computer records the morning after the murder starting at 5.32 am and including multiple file creations and interactions thereafter all during a time that Raffaele and Amanda insist they were asleep until 10.30am;

•the separate witnesses who testified on oath that Amanda and Raffaele were at the square 40 metres from the girls’ cottage on the evening of the murder and the fact that Amanda was seen at a convenience store at 7.45am the next morning, again while she said she was in bed;

•the accusation of a completely innocent man by Amanda Knox;

•the fact that when Amanda Knox rang Meredith’s mobile telephones, ostensibly to check on the “missing” Meredith, she did so for just three seconds - registering the call but making no effort to allow the phone to be answered in the real world

•the knife-fetish of Raffaele Sollecito and his formal disciplinary punishment for watching animal 🤬🤬🤬🤬 at his university – so far from the wholesome image portrayed;

•the fact that claimed multi-year kick-boxer Raffaele apparently couldn’t break down a flimsy door to Meredith’s room when he and Amanda were at the flat the morning after the murder but the first people in the flat with the police who weren’t martial artists could;

•the extensive hard drug use of Sollecito as told on by Amanda Knox;

•the fact that Amanda knew details of the body and the wounds despite not being in line of sight of the body when it was discovered;

•the lies of Knox on the witness stand in July 2009 about how their drug intake that night (“one joint”) is totally contradicted by Sollecito’s own contemporaneous diary;

•the fact that after a late evening’s questioning, Knox wrote a 2,900 word email home which painstakingly details what she said happened that evening and the morning after that looks *highly* like someone committing to memory, at 3.30 in the morning, an extensive alibi;

•the fact that both Amanda and Raffaele both said they would give up smoking dope for life in their prison diaries despite having apparently nothing to regret;

•the fact that when Rudy Guede was arrested, Raffaele Sollecito didn’t celebrate the “true” perpetrator being arrested (which surely would have seen him released) but worried in his diary that a man whom he said he didn’t know would “make up strange things” about him despite him just being one person in a city of over 160,000 people;

•the fact that both an occupant of the cottage and the police instantly recognised the cottage had not been burgled but had been the subject of a staged break-in where glass was *on top* of apparently disturbed clothes;

•that Knox and Sollecito both suggested each other might have committed the crime and Sollecito TO THIS DATE does not agree Knox stayed in his flat all the night in question;

•the bizarre behaviour of both of them for days after the crime;

•the fact that cellphone records show Knox did not stay in Sollecito’s flat but had left the flat at a time which is completely coincidental with Guede’s corroborated presence near the girl’s flat earlier in the evening;

•the fact that Amanda Knox’s table lamp was found in the locked room of Meredith Kercher in a position that suggested it had been used to examine for fine details of the murder scene in a clean up;

•the unbelievable series of changing stories made up by the defendants after their versions became challenged; Knox’s inexplicable reaction to being shown the knife drawer at the girl’s cottage where she ended up physically shaking and hitting her head.
 
  • #139
Otto, I am not trying to debate the merits of the case, but thank you for posting all that info. Is it something new or have you posted already?
My point and my only point in this thread is that jury bias via media is a real issue and it exists and this is not an all or nothing situation. Not all juries have bias. Not all juries are impartial. not all judges are good not all judges are bad. Not all LE are dishonest not all le are honest.
hope that helps.
 
  • #140
Otto, I am not trying to debate the merits of the case, but thank you for posting all that info. Is it something new or have you posted already?
My point and my only point in this thread is that jury bias via media is a real issue and it exists and this is not an all or nothing situation. Not all juries have bias. Not all juries are impartial. not all judges are good not all judges are bad. Not all LE are dishonest not all le are honest.
hope that helps.

My point is that the Italian jury was made up of 8 people, including 2 judges, and that there is no foundation to accuse the jury of being influenced by, or basing their opinions on, what was published in the newspaper. Furthermore, there is ample evidence, both circumstantial and forensic, to justify the conviction. Accusations that the jury was tainted, that both prosecutors are corrupt, that the police had tunnel vision and didn't do their jobs or had it in for Amanda or were anti-American, that the forensic analysts were incompetent ... all of this is nothing more than attacking people that were simply doing their jobs. It does not address the facts of the case. Instead, the facts of the case are simply dismissed with one singular remark; that being: "there is no evidence". After an 11 month trial, how anyone can conclude that there was no evidence and that the facts of the case are insignificant is beyond me. Those people that were doing their jobs have become the targets for the fact that Raffaele Sollecito and the American woman were convicted of murder, and the victim is ignored while Amanda Knox is placed on a pedestal.

Amanda Knox is an insignificant woman who arrived in Europe thinking it was her playground, and that she did not have to abide by any laws. She has paid a high price for her foolish, self indulgent, self entitled attitude. If she is innocent, she is the subject of a mountain of coincidences all pointing towards her guilt.
 
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