WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #8

[Malkmus]

I agree,I do think A comes across as very uncaring and superficial.That's actually another reason that to ME points more towards her innocence than guilt.When I read Rudy's account it is full of passion,of emotion ,of anger of his past,of growing up ,of rejection.....I can see how all this rage can lead to this brutal murder....AK on the other hand is in lala land ,I can't see her having the anger and rage necessary to commit a brutal crime.

Yes, Rudy had a troubled upbringing at the hands of an abusive father, and whatever trauma comes along with losing your parents and being adopted by another family.

I think those who think that Amanda and Raf kissing after finding out their friend was murdered just haven't been around enough people in their early 20's. I've worked 4 seasons on a hidden camera show that would set up kids 18 - 23 years old (and yes we called them "kids") in sometimes extreme situations. I've seen the reactions of over 300 of these kids to all sorts of scenarios. One thing we could never count on was how they would actually react. The variations in reactions were all over the place. One girl witnessed a man get thrown through a window right in front of her by someone else and never budged to call a paramedic or even gasp - while all the "actors" around her were screaming.
What I learned the most from this age group, however, is that they are extremely gullible, malleable, and willing to do whatever someone in a position of authority tells them to do, whether it's someone playing a cop or just one of the producers of the show. I think that mentality is particularly strong in young people still attending school. They're constantly in that student/teacher mode. They would never question or disobey their teacher and only view them as someone who is there to help them. And they probably see any law enforcement agent the same way.
I believe that a lot of my understanding of Amanda and Raf's behavior after the murder comes from having worked with so many other kids like them and seeing how they react to extreme situations.
And as far as Amanda's actions go, the fact that she didn't immediately hop on a plane home, as her mother recommended, IMO, trumps all the kissing and cartwheels psychoanalysis.

 

[Malkmus]

Amanda, was in puppy love and probably just wanted to get out of there... She seems detached, but many people cannot deal with something like this...she had nothing to to with it...she was not that close to her roomie...
she probably just wanted to get away and go be with her boyfriend.

She was unaware that she was being watched or her actions noted...because she did nothing wrong.

I don't get why her personality plays into this...

its almost like the prosecution is trying to judge and condemm her regardless of her innocence...just for being a twit.

I say she walks.

:skip:

Yeah, I'm not getting what people don't understand about taking comfort in the arms of someone you care about when faced with a traumatic situation. I think most couples would at least embrace each other, and the fact that Amanda and Raf went in for some smooching just shows that they were comforted by each other. It's not like they were full on making out and groping each other.

 

[Malkmus]

We've been through this. On Nov 5, after 2 hours of questioning, Knox confessed to being at the scene at the time of the murder. For all we know, Rudy was questioned for 2 hours and made the same confession. Is his confession any different than her confession?

Amanda, by her own admission, didn't know enough Italian to understand police during questioning without an interpreter, so clearly she didn't understand what police and Italians were saying at the scene. Laura and her boyfriend were so suspicious of the lovebirds that they searched the car after driving them to the police station ... should we believe that they were suspicious and fed them information? Who knew that Meredith bled to death? She was covered with a duvet ... only her foot was visible. How did Amanda get it all so right?

Otto, the three most important things we know about Amanda's interrogation are:

1. That it was not recorded, a red flag when considering that Mignini himself claimed to have recorded all the witness statements he conducted as well as ILE recording Amanda and Raf's conversations before the interrogation.

2. The Amanda meeting Patrick scenario was perpetrated by ILE based on their misunderstanding of her text message to him.

3. That Amanda resisted complying with that scenario and that it took ILE convincing her she'd been traumatized to get her to acquiesce to it. This is backed by the interpreter's personal story of being traumatized and forgetting what happened to her which she related to Amanda in an effort to get her to submit to the Patrick scenario.

So in a nutshell, what we have is an interrogation where no one can say for certain how police treated the witness because it was suspiciously not recorded, with police insisting the witness agree wit their theory of what happened, and when the witness rejects that theory, convince her she just doesn't remember because she must have been traumatized by it.
I'll post this one more time, as I find it very relevant:

"This sort of flaw can be a prime indicator of a false confession, evidence that the police, not the suspect, provided the story line. "
- Richard leo
http://www.injusticebusters.com/04/Loftus_Elizabeth.shtml

But I believe your point stemmed from the notion that Amanda and Rudy both claim to have been at the cottage that night and therefore the DNA evidence against them should be applied equally. But they are not the same. Rudy has always maintained he was at the scene of the crime and never denied it. Amanda said only in her November 5th interrogation that she had been to the cottage (under the dubious circumstances noted above), and in her memorandum the next day where she recollects what she actually did that night there is no mention of going to the cottage or meeting Patrick. And subsequently, during her trial she has always maintained that she was not at the cottage that night. So, to go back to your original point that someone could argue against Rudy's DNA evidence just as they have against Amanda's, this is why that notion doesn't make sense. It's pointless to argue against Rudy's DNA evidence because he never denied being present at the scene of the crime, and Amanda has. There's a big difference.

 

[Malkmus]

We've been through this. On Nov 5, after 2 hours of questioning, Knox confessed to being at the scene at the time of the murder. For all we know, Rudy was questioned for 2 hours and made the same confession. Is his confession any different than her confession?
(snip)

Yes, it's very different. He never denied it.

 

[Malkmus]

We don't know how much DNA was found around Meredith, so it's not possible to say that there was so much more. He admitted using the toilet, denied murder.

He admitted to more than that. He claims responsibility for his DNA being inside her by saying they fooled around that night, and he places himself in her bedroom while she bled to death, that he brought her towels to stem the bleeding.

 

[Malkmus]

On a sidenote, I find one of the most interesting tidbits from yesterday's hearing to be that Monica Napoleoni, head of the Perugia Flying Squad, mysteriously did not show up to testify as she had been called to do. I wonder why?

 

[otto]

Yeah, I'm not getting what people don't understand about taking comfort in the arms of someone you care about when faced with a traumatic situation. I think most couples would at least embrace each other, and the fact that Amanda and Raf went in for some smooching just shows that they were comforted by each other. It's not like they were full on making out and groping each other.

In the words of those that were there:

"Amanda Knox, the American student accused of killing Meredith Kercher, her British flatmate, behaved in a “strange and unemotional” way immediately after the murder, kissing and cuddling her boyfriend as they waited to give evidence, a court was told yesterday.

...

“I found Amanda’s behaviour very strange and I found it quite difficult to be around her,” Ms Butterworth told the packed court room. “She had no emotion. Everybody was upset and she didn’t seem to show any emotions. I remember Amanda sticking her tongue out at Raffaele. They were talking and joking, kissing and cuddling.”

...

“I remember Amanda sticking her tongue out at him. She had her feet on his lap,”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5725542.ece

 

[otto]

Otto, the three most important things we know about Amanda's interrogation are:

1. That it was not recorded, a red flag when considering that Mignini himself claimed to have recorded all the witness statements he conducted as well as ILE recording Amanda and Raf's conversations before the interrogation.

2. The Amanda meeting Patrick scenario was perpetrated by ILE based on their misunderstanding of her text message to him.

3. That Amanda resisted complying with that scenario and that it took ILE convincing her she'd been traumatized to get her to acquiesce to it. This is backed by the interpreter's personal story of being traumatized and forgetting what happened to her which she related to Amanda in an effort to get her to submit to the Patrick scenario.

So in a nutshell, what we have is an interrogation where no one can say for certain how police treated the witness because it was suspiciously not recorded, with police insisting the witness agree wit their theory of what happened, and when the witness rejects that theory, convince her she just doesn't remember because she must have been traumatized by it.
I'll post this one more time, as I find it very relevant:

"This sort of flaw can be a prime indicator of a false confession, evidence that the police, not the suspect, provided the story line. "
- Richard leo
http://www.injusticebusters.com/04/Loftus_Elizabeth.shtml

But I believe your point stemmed from the notion that Amanda and Rudy both claim to have been at the cottage that night and therefore the DNA evidence against them should be applied equally. But they are not the same. Rudy has always maintained he was at the scene of the crime and never denied it. Amanda said only in her November 5th interrogation that she had been to the cottage (under the dubious circumstances noted above), and in her memorandum the next day where she recollects what she actually did that night there is no mention of going to the cottage or meeting Patrick. And subsequently, during her trial she has always maintained that she was not at the cottage that night. So, to go back to your original point that someone could argue against Rudy's DNA evidence just as they have against Amanda's, this is why that notion doesn't make sense. It's pointless to argue against Rudy's DNA evidence because he never denied being present at the scene of the crime, and Amanda has. There's a big difference.

What I consider to be important is that two of the convicted murderers confessed to being at the scene at the time of the murder: Amanda Knox, Rudy Guede. Amanda confessed on the evening of Nov 5 after being questioned for 2 hours. We don't know how long it took Rudy to confess. Amanda has said that she was cuffed in the head and out popped her confession. Rudy has not blamed anyone for his confession. Raffaele has said that he told a load of rubbish because Amanda told him what to say.

Rudy's DNA placed him at murder. DNA from Amanda and Raffaele placed them at the murder. Rudy's DNA has not be contested as being a result of contamination or corruption. The tests were done in the same lab as the DNA tests for Amanda and Raffaele. Amanda and Raffaele allege that the DNA results are are result of contamination or faulty testing.

What I see is that Rudy has accepted his participation in the murder, but that Amanda and Raffaele, with identical circumstances, are trying to wiggle out of their participation in the murder by using legal tactics such as alleging that everyone involved in the investigation was "out to get them".

 

[Malkmus]

In the words of those that were there:

"Amanda Knox, the American student accused of killing Meredith Kercher, her British flatmate, behaved in a “strange and unemotional” way immediately after the murder, kissing and cuddling her boyfriend as they waited to give evidence, a court was told yesterday.

...

“I found Amanda’s behaviour very strange and I found it quite difficult to be around her,” Ms Butterworth told the packed court room. “She had no emotion. Everybody was upset and she didn’t seem to show any emotions. I remember Amanda sticking her tongue out at Raffaele. They were talking and joking, kissing and cuddling.”

...

“I remember Amanda sticking her tongue out at him. She had her feet on his lap,”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5725542.ece

Your point? I said they weren't making out or groping each other. We know they kissed and cuddled, we have the video, but it's just pecks - french kissing and feeling each other up would be another story.

 

[otto]

On a sidenote, I find one of the most interesting tidbits from yesterday's hearing to be that Monica Napoleoni, head of the Perugia Flying Squad, mysteriously did not show up to testify as she had been called to do. I wonder why?

What is her role, and was she fined by the court? If she was not fined by the court for not appearing, she most likely had a reasonable explanation for not attending.

 

[otto]

Your point? I said they weren't making out or groping each other. We know they kissed and cuddled, we have the video, but it's just pecks - french kissing and feeling each other up would be another story.

No, we don't have video of how the lovebirds carried on at the police station for hours while many acquaintances of Meredith were questioned.

 

[Malkmus]

What I consider to be important is that two of the convicted murderers confessed to being at the scene at the time of the murder: Amanda Knox, Rudy Guede. Amanda confessed on the evening of Nov 5 after being questioned for 2 hours. We don't know how long it took Rudy to confess. Amanda has said that she was cuffed in the head and out popped her confession. Rudy has not blamed anyone for his confession. Raffaele has said that he told a load of rubbish because Amanda told him what to say.

I think you grossly misrepresent the interrogation. You present it as if they asked her what she did that night, hit her on the back of the head and that she accused Patrick. However, we know the timeline of events for the interrogation, including the misinterpretation of the text which implicated Patrick, and her denial that that their meeting never happened which led to the "you were traumatized" tactic by the interpreter. I feel you choose to ignore those aspects as it is damaging to your argument.

Rudy's DNA placed him at murder. DNA from Amanda and Raffaele placed them at the murder. Rudy's DNA has not be contested as being a result of contamination or corruption. The tests were done in the same lab as the DNA tests for Amanda and Raffaele. Amanda and Raffaele allege that the DNA results are are result of contamination or faulty testing.

Rudy's fingerprint is what led to his arrest and undeniable involvement in the crime. But I don't really see what your point is with saying that the tests for all three were done at the same lab.

What I see is that Rudy has accepted his participation in the murder, but that Amanda and Raffaele, with identical circumstances, are trying to wiggle out of their participation in the murder by using legal tactics such as alleging that everyone involved in the investigation was "out to get them".

And I think they have very good reason "wiggle out of their participation". And I think the majority of professionals outside of ILE and the prosecution think so too. Funny that there are no experts coming out of the woodwork to straighten out all those former FBI agents, forensics experts, and journalists who think the evidence against them is extremely weak. I'm very interested to see what the independent experts at the current trial have to say once they've finished reviewing Stefanoni's original analysis of the DNA. Something tells me it won't be very positive.

 

[Malkmus]

What is her role, and was she fined by the court? If she was not fined by the court for not appearing, she most likely had a reasonable explanation for not attending.

Press reports state she couldn't be located and that her next court date has been pushed to the next hearing in May. The same thing was done for the one disco owner who didn't show up last time. If the same rules apply to her as him, she could be fined if she does not show up next time.

ETA: Not sure what you mean by "what is her role?" She's the head of the flying squad in Perugia, and she was called to testify yesterday in court.

 

[Malkmus]

No, we don't have video of how the lovebirds carried on at the police station for hours while many acquaintances of Meredith were questioned.

Again, what are you arguing here? I said they weren't making out/groping each other, just cuddling and kissing. You cited witness testimony that claims nothing more or less.

 

[otto]

Press reports state she couldn't be located and that her next court date has been pushed to the next hearing in May. The same thing was done for the one disco owner who didn't show up last time. If the same rules apply to her as him, she could be fined if she does not show up next time.

ETA: Not sure what you mean by "what is her role?" She's the head of the flying squad in Perugia, and she was called to testify yesterday in court.

The disco guy that didn't show up was fined 200 euros and compelled to appear (after missing one court appearance). If someone else didn't show up, I would expect that person to be fined as well.

I don't pay attention to the names of people other than the victim and convicted.

 

[otto]

Again, what are you arguing here? I said they weren't making out/groping each other, just cuddling and kissing. You cited witness testimony that claims nothing more or less.

What are you talking about.

I was talking about the lovebirds immediately after learning about the murder. I referenced testimony from eye witnesses. There is no video of their inappropriate behavior except outside the cottage, but the inappropriate behavior (joking, sticking out tongues, feet on laps, etc) carried on for hours.

 

[otto]

I think you grossly misrepresent the interrogation. You present it as if they asked her what she did that night, hit her on the back of the head and that she accused Patrick. However, we know the timeline of events for the interrogation, including the misinterpretation of the text which implicated Patrick, and her denial that that their meeting never happened which led to the "you were traumatized" tactic by the interpreter. I feel you choose to ignore those aspects as it is damaging to your argument.



Rudy's fingerprint is what led to his arrest and undeniable involvement in the crime. But I don't really see what your point is with saying that the tests for all three were done at the same lab.



And I think they have very good reason "wiggle out of their participation". And I think the majority of professionals outside of ILE and the prosecution think so too. Funny that there are no experts coming out of the woodwork to straighten out all those former FBI agents, forensics experts, and journalists who think the evidence against them is extremely weak. I'm very interested to see what the independent experts at the current trial have to say once they've finished reviewing Stefanoni's original analysis of the DNA. Something tells me it won't be very positive.

I think we've all been on that marry-go-round long enough ... the one where we debate whether Knox was beaten and deprived of the necessities of life in the 2 hours of questioning on Nov 5 prior to her confession ... no need to redo that debate (in my humble opinion).

 

[Malkmus]

The disco guy that didn't show up was fined 200 euros and compelled to appear (after missing one court appearance). If someone else didn't show up, I would expect that person to be fined as well.

I don't pay attention to the names of people other than the victim and convicted.

Ah, so he was already fined. Then either Napoleoni was too or she was given leeway for being with the police. I guess we won't know until further reports come out. Either way, I find her absence intriguing, considering she apparently never missed a hearing before.

 

[Malkmus]

What are you talking about.

I was talking about the lovebirds immediately after learning about the murder. I referenced testimony from eye witnesses. There is no video of their inappropriate behavior except outside the cottage, but the inappropriate behavior (joking, sticking out tongues, feet on laps, etc) carried on for hours.

Otto, we're both talking about the same thing. You responded to my claim that they weren't making out/groping each other, just cuddling kissing by citing witness claims that they were... cuddling/kissing. I don't know what you're point is other than that maybe you're just agreeing with me.

 

[Malkmus]

I think we've all been on that marry-go-round long enough ... the one where we debate whether Knox was beaten and deprived of the necessities of life in the 2 hours of questioning on Nov 5 prior to her confession ... no need to redo that debate (in my humble opinion).

I'm sorry, where did I say I wanted to debate whether she was beaten or not and whether she was deprived of necessities? I listed three things that I think are undeniable when discussing the interrogation. That those on the pro-guilt side sidestep those three things seems to be evasive and the reason is clear.