WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #8

[missyjane77]

The arguments for Amanda and Raffaele's guilt will "keep coming back" because, as it stands, she is convicted of murder. There is an ongoing appeal, and new information may emerge but, until then, she is guilty - just like Rudy. I have faith in the judicial system in general. Sometimes mistakes are made but, in general, verdicts are correct.

Actually, she is concidered innocent until all appeals are exhausted. I'll see if I can't find a reference for you.

 

[otto]

Actually, she is concidered innocent until all appeals are exhausted. I'll see if I can't find a reference for you.

I understand that she has been found guilty in the court of first instance. I'm very interested in accurate information, so please let me know if I'm mistaken.

This is taken from the English translation of the Judge's report:

"Under articles 533 and 535 of the Criminal Procedure Code
[this Court] Declares
KNOX Amanda Marie and SOLLECITO Raffaele guilty of the crimes ascribed to them under chapter A) of the charges, into said crime being absorbed the felony contested under chapter C), as well as [guilty] under chapter B), D) limited to the mobile phones and E) and, as far as regards KNOX Amanda Marie, additionally the crime she has been charged with under chapter F), all these crimes must be joined by the element of continuance and, excluding the aggravations provided for by articles 577 and 61(5) of the Criminal Code, to both [accused] conceding the generic mitigating circumstances equivalent to the remaining aggravation, [426] condemns them, to a sentence of 26 years of imprisonment for KNOX and to a sentence of 25 years of imprisonment for SOLLECITO (base penalty for the reiteration, 24 years of imprisonment) and each of them to pay court costs and prison custody."

pg, 396
Ref: http://www.westseattleherald.com/si...ttachments/MasseiReportEnglishTranslation.pdf

 

[missyjane77]

"Mr Dalla Vedova added:'This film upsets the correct principles of a fair trial. In Italy the case is not yet concluded until the third level has been reached.
'An appeal is underway and then a final decision will be made by the Supreme Court so as such Amanda is still innocent until that time and an appeal is underway to see if mistakes were made at the first trial.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ercher-murder-film-trailer.html#ixzz1HqWBUaw5

ETA: Of course, the same goes for Mignini...He is considered innocent until he has exhausted all of his appeals. His sentence has been suspended while he is appealing though, unlike Amanda.

 

[otto]

"Mr Dalla Vedova added:'This film upsets the correct principles of a fair trial. In Italy the case is not yet concluded until the third level has been reached.
'An appeal is underway and then a final decision will be made by the Supreme Court so as such Amanda is still innocent until that time and an appeal is underway to see if mistakes were made at the first trial.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ercher-murder-film-trailer.html#ixzz1HqWBUaw5

ETA: Of course, the same goes for Mignini...He is considered innocent until he has exhausted all of his appeals. His sentence has been suspended while he is appealing though, unlike Amanda.

So we have a verdict of guilt in the court of first instance, and a lawyer for the accused saying that the final decision will be made by the Supreme court. I don't see that these statements are in conflict. At this time she is convicted. The appeal is underway, and three arguments are being considered. If the appeal of these three arguments is successful, it will open the possibility for further consideration of other arguments. If the appeal is unsuccessful, the conviction will stand. It will be appealed to another level of the court system. Eventually, the Supreme Court will hear further appeals and make a final ruling as to whether the conviction stands, or it is vacated.

(the Daily Mail has been known to exaggerate a little)

 

[SMK]

Everybody in this thread wants justice for Meredith. To imply otherwise is grossly offensive.

Thanks for this. Why is it that so many people believe that thinking AK and RS may be innocent, or wrongfully convicted, shows disrespect for the victim Meredith Kercher?

If AK & RS have in fact been wrongfully convicted, then viewing them as victims does nothing to degrade Meredith. In this purview, they would be victims in their own right. This does not diminish what happened to poor Meredith.


In terms of the articles which have been appearing,
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/26/earlyshow/saturday/main20047474.shtml#comments

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/major-development-amanda-knox-trial-american-college-student-convicted-murder-italy-13231825

is there a consensus as to if the optimism is being overstated? Will the conviction nonetheless stand in all likelihood? Sorry if this has been discussed: I am not new to Websleuths but am new to this forum, and have only so much time to read all the posts and threads. Thanks....
:waitasec:

 

[missyjane77]

No, Italian law says they are innocent until appeals are exhausted. Here is an article where it mentions Mignini.

http://http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/what_his_florence_conviction_means_for_giuliano_mignini_and_the_case/

Here are some more links for you about Amanda:

http://www.king5.com/home/Amanda-Knox-found-guilty-in-Italy-murder-trial.html

http://hpronline.org/hprgument/amanda-knox-might-be-guilty/

And even though you despise blogs....

http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/2010/04/things-said-and-left-unsaid-barbie.html

ETA: Really, if you just Google it, you'll find plenty of references.

 

[missyjane77]

So, according to the Harvard Political Review, one isn't even considered CONVICTED until all appeals are exhausted and a sentence isn't started until then. So right now Amanda is just biding her time in jail. She's not even serving a sentence.

 

[otto]

No, Italian law says they are innocent until appeals are exhausted. Here is an article where it mentions Mignini.

http://http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/what_his_florence_conviction_means_for_giuliano_mignini_and_the_case/

Here are some more links for you about Amanda:

http://www.king5.com/home/Amanda-Knox-found-guilty-in-Italy-murder-trial.html

http://hpronline.org/hprgument/amanda-knox-might-be-guilty/

And even though you despise blogs....

http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/2010/04/things-said-and-left-unsaid-barbie.html

ETA: Really, if you just Google it, you'll find plenty of references.

What do you suppose was going on in the judge's head when he declared: "the COURT OF ASSIZES OF PERUGIA Declares KNOX Amanda Marie and SOLLECITO Raffaele guilty of the crimes ascribed to them"?

 

[otto]

Thanks for this. Why is it that so many people believe that thinking AK and RS may be innocent, or wrongfully convicted, shows disrespect for the victim Meredith Kercher?

If AK & RS have in fact been wrongfully convicted, then viewing them as victims does nothing to degrade Meredith. In this purview, they would be victims in their own right. This does not diminish what happened to poor Meredith.


In terms of the articles which have been appearing,
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/26/earlyshow/saturday/main20047474.shtml#comments

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/major-development-amanda-knox-trial-american-college-student-convicted-murder-italy-13231825

is there a consensus as to if the optimism is being overstated? Will the conviction nonetheless stand in all likelihood? Sorry if this has been discussed: I am not new to Websleuths but am new to this forum, and have only so much time to read all the posts and threads. Thanks....
:waitasec:

Within the context of the discussion, my objection was the label of "pro-guilt" being used to label those that believe justice for Meredith is being done.

Regarding the recent leak in the retesting of two pieces of DNA evidence, I think we need to keep the big picture in mind. Amanda and Raffaele were arrested based on circumstantial evidence (e.g.: absence of alibi, staged break in, confession, lies) before the first DNA tests were carried out. The verdict was not based solely on DNA evidence. My understanding is that the unanimous decision was primarily based on the confession. DNA tests have been done and it was stated, well before the appeal, that there was no additional material on the knife to test. This recent finding confirms what was already known. The next evaluation will be on the test methods that were done. We will hear the full report on May 21.

 

[Nova]

Thanks for this. Why is it that so many people believe that thinking AK and RS may be innocent, or wrongfully convicted, shows disrespect for the victim Meredith Kercher?

If AK & RS have in fact been wrongfully convicted, then viewing them as victims does nothing to degrade Meredith. In this purview, they would be victims in their own right. This does not diminish what happened to poor Meredith.


In terms of the articles which have been appearing,
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/26/earlyshow/saturday/main20047474.shtml#comments

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/major-development-amanda-knox-trial-american-college-student-convicted-murder-italy-13231825

is there a consensus as to if the optimism is being overstated? Will the conviction nonetheless stand in all likelihood? Sorry if this has been discussed: I am not new to Websleuths but am new to this forum, and have only so much time to read all the posts and threads. Thanks....
:waitasec:

Welcome to WS!

I don't think there is any consensus here as to what will happen even if the knife and bra DNA are thrown out by the appellate court. Personally, I think this case has become a political "hot potato" in Italy and, humans being humans (this isn't specially true of Italians), I think judges will find it very difficult to overturn the verdicts.

But I'm not an expert on Italian courts, so this is just a guess on my part.

 

[Nova]

Within the context of the discussion, my objection was the label of "pro-guilt" being used to label those that believe justice for Meredith is being done.

Yes, but the only alternative you've proposed is "pro-justice", which applies to all of us and is of no use in distinguishing between those who agree with the verdicts and those who do not.

If you are so sensitive about the term "pro-guilt," I think it's up to you to propose an alternative that actually distinguishes between differing points of view.

 

[SMK]

Within the context of the discussion, my objection was the label of "pro-guilt" being used to label those that believe justice for Meredith is being done.

Yes, I see, and understand.

 

[SMK]

Yes, but the only alternative you've proposed is "pro-justice", which applies to all of us and is of no use in distinguishing between those who agree with the verdicts and those who do not.

If you are so sensitive about the term "pro-guilt," I think it's up to you to propose an alternative that actually distinguishes between differing points of view.

Yes, as conveying "belief that conviction is sound" or something similar.

 

[missyjane77]

What do you suppose was going on in the judge's head when he declared: "the COURT OF ASSIZES OF PERUGIA Declares KNOX Amanda Marie and SOLLECITO Raffaele guilty of the crimes ascribed to them"?

Really?? There has to be a verdict before appeals can start.

 

[SMK]

. . . Regarding the recent leak in the retesting of two pieces of DNA evidence, I think we need to keep the big picture in mind. Amanda and Raffaele were arrested based on circumstantial evidence (e.g.: absence of alibi, staged break in, confession, lies) before the first DNA tests were carried out. The verdict was not based solely on DNA evidence. My understanding is that the unanimous decision was primarily based on the confession. DNA tests have been done and it was stated, well before the appeal, that there was no additional material on the knife to test. This recent finding confirms what was already known. The next evaluation will be on the test methods that were done. We will hear the full report on May 21.

Yes, I see. Do you consider the defense counter-arguments on these points to be robust? ( that the break in was real, and not staged, as per the Hendry analysis, for example; that the confession was coerced; that the alibis became incongruent under lies told within the interrogation (ie, we have proof you were there, Raffaele is no longer supporting your alibi )??

 

[SMK]

Addendum: and also arguments about contamination and improper procedural protocol, etc. etc.

 

[Nova]

The arguments for Amanda and Raffaele's guilt will "keep coming back" because, as it stands, she is convicted of murder. There is an ongoing appeal, and new information may emerge but, until then, she is guilty - just like Rudy. I have faith in the judicial system in general. Sometimes mistakes are made but, in general, verdicts are correct.

I don't think you'll find statements from me suggesting that three people murdered Meredith over an argument about chores. Personally, I have viewed this as a thrill kill from pretty much the beginning.

Of course, I expect that arguments for the guilt of AK and RS will "keep coming back." That's what we're discussing.

If I'd known we were playing take one sentence out of context and misconstrue its meaning, I could have chosen my words more carefully. What I was saying is that I don't understand why arguments for AK's guilt keep coming back to her supposed "confession." In fact she never confessed to murder.

 

[otto]

Yes, but the only alternative you've proposed is "pro-justice", which applies to all of us and is of no use in distinguishing between those who agree with the verdicts and those who do not.

If you are so sensitive about the term "pro-guilt," I think it's up to you to propose an alternative that actually distinguishes between differing points of view.

Quite true. Since Meredith is the subject, pro-justice applies to everyone. I don't have a need to define people that believe justice has not been done. Do we need that? If so, what sort of respectful term can be used? Similarly, is a special term required to define people that believe justice has been done? Should we talk about justice believers and justice non-believers? Do we really need that terminology in a debate about the facts of the case?

 

[SMK]

In fact she never confessed to murder. Bravo. Well said.

 

[otto]

Really?? There has to be a verdict before appeals can start.

Yes, there has been a guilty verdict and it is my understanding that until that verdict is overturned, it stands. That would explain why Raffaele and Amanda are currently facing 25 and 26 years in prison.