WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #9

[ziggy]

It doesn't make sense to me that he would have chosen such an inconvenient way to break into the place.If he broke in it would have been much easier to break in through the door.That whole scenario of first climbing up to open the shutters,than throwing the rock,then climbing back up and getting in without getting cut? No I don't believe it.
i think the door was left open or Meredith opened it or he would have broken in through the door.
Maybe he opened the green shutters on his way out...tossed the clothes around in F's room and then threw the rock while he was running off? That would explain the glass on the clothes.

Claudi - no matter how many times I try to train my boss and others about keyboard shortcuts, they insist on using the slow mouse and drag it around and click - it's much slower and less efficient BUT IT'S WHAT THEY KNOW. People do what they know even if it seems like there might be a better, faster or more convenient way.

 

[Nova]

Whether he called a few minutes before or a few minutes after is irrelevant to me since I believe the postal police were driving around looking for the cottage in the area... not sure of it's exact location. I believe RS spotted them either while they were nearing the cottage walking to it or just after they both arrived at the cottage (AK's second trip).

Well, there's a leap! Even if RS had seen the postal police on the road, why would he assume they were coming to the cottage?

But if he were calling the carabinieri in a panic, he would have called them. He wouldn't have called to discuss things with his sister first.

 

[dgfred]

What do you mean 'leap'?

So if you were INVOLVED in a murder and walking to or standing AT the crime scene... would you be nervous if you saw any police person in the vicinity???

I say the 'leap' is not thinking this would be so.

 

[Nova]

...She went back to her boyfriend and told him about what she found. Are you 100 percent sure that every single person person would expect the worst based on what she found, and call the police first, or that some people would tell the person they were closest to first about it and then see what they should do?

I'm not correcting you, Mal, because I'm sure you've thought of this.

But we should add the language issue. AK went to tell RS about the break-in in part, I believe, because she wanted help dealing with police from someone fluent in Italian. She may have even known that RS had a relative on the Force.

 

[dgfred]

Why would she stroll back, eat lunch, stroll back over to the cottage... then want to call police?

 

[Nova]

Exactly!!!In retrospect, one knows it was a murder scene, so judges. But as Amanda says, that did not enter her mind. Consider this: I knew someone in Pittsburgh in the early '90s, he had just worked an all night shift. He came home to his rental that he shared with his roommate. The front door was slightly a jar, but he figured his roommate left it that way. There were coins on the stairs, and a gold chain, but he figured his roommate had dropped coins and that maybe his girlfriend had dropped her necklace. There was blood in the hallway, but he thought his roommate had cut himself. He went to lie down. It was not until he went to go take a shower, and found his roommate fully clothed in the tub with his throat cut, dead, that he realized a burglary/murder had occurred and went to call 911.

Great example! I think most of us tend to reach for mundane explanations before accepting the worst. Only the most timid or neurotic immediately assume an unlocked door means a murder has been committed.

 

[SMK]

Great example! I think most of us tend to reach for mundane explanations before accepting the worst. Only the most timid or neurotic immediately assume an unlocked door means a murder has been committed.

Thanks, and you are right. First off, you are simply NOT EXPECTING a robbery/murder - your mind wasn't on it as you went about your business. Secondly, the mind goes into a denial state: You see, but don't see. "Oh, coins on the stairs, and a gold chain on the stairs, I guess they dropped those." I can picture Amanda's mind doing the same. It is so easy to judge in retrospect, as though she knew a murder had been committed. She did not.

 

[Nova]

Claudi - no matter how many times I try to train my boss and others about keyboard shortcuts, they insist on using the slow mouse and drag it around and click - it's much slower and less efficient BUT IT'S WHAT THEY KNOW. People do what they know even if it seems like there might be a better, faster or more convenient way.

Indeed they do.

And Hendry discusses at length why that particular window, while physically challenging, offered numerous advantages in terms of visibility and avenues for escape if discovered while outside.

 

[Nova]

What do you mean 'leap'?

So if you were INVOLVED in a murder and walking to or standing AT the crime scene... would you be nervous if you saw any police person in the vicinity???

I say the 'leap' is not thinking this would be so.

Leap in logic. Surely RS knew the difference between the postal police and the carabinieri and he knew whom he had called! (AK may not have understood this distinction, but RS surely did.)

Even if RS saw the postal police in the neighborhood, he'd have no reason to think they were responding to his call, because he didn't call them.

 

[dgfred]

But he couldn't be worried/anxious since he was involved in a murder, was standing at the crime scene, and saw policemen (of any sort) driving around looking at the cottage... yeah right.

Plus this subject doesn't make any difference to the proceedings now... it is just something I 'thought' personally. Whether it happened that way, or another way, or your way doesn't make any difference at this point.

 

[Nova]

Why would she stroll back, eat lunch, stroll back over to the cottage... then want to call police?

The break-in had already occurred. The evidence of it wasn't going anywhere.

But whether she "strolled" or "walked purposely" is a matter of opinion. If an eyewitness caught her "strolling," I haven't heard the testimony.

Much is made of her stopping to "eat lunch." But again, what exactly does that mean. Did she sit for 2 hours while RS served her a 6-course meal? Or did she grab an apple? A sandwich?

OF COURSE, now that we know the horror that awaited in MK's room, we expect more urgency on the part of AK and RS. But assuming they didn't know a murder had taken place, what was the rush?

I know don't the practice in Seattle, but there are large cities in the U.S. where police won't even respond to simple break-ins. They're just too busy. Instead they tell the victim to drop by the station some time and fill out a report.

 

[Allusonz]

Indeed they do.

And Hendry discusses at length why that particular window, while physically challenging, offered numerous advantages in terms of visibility and avenues for escape if discovered while outside.

You make some important points here Nova. Due to the direction the traffic came from it would be much easier to see someone on a deck than further below coming from the opposite direction. All of your points are things that burglers do take into consideration

 

[OldSteve]

Question - I'm not familiar with how appeals work in Italy.
Are convictions ever, rarely, never overturned?
Is the best one can expect just a sentence reduction?
Can a sentence be lengthened?

 

[dgfred]

He seemed to mention blood IIRC, and a locked door... he should have been a 'tad' more worried. That was the whole point wasn't it? Can't have it both ways... either worried about the break in and Meredith, or not so worried.

 

[Nova]

But he couldn't be worried/anxious since he was involved in a murder, was standing at the crime scene, and saw policemen (of any sort) driving around looking at the cottage... yeah right.

Plus this subject doesn't make any difference to the proceedings now... it is just something I 'thought' personally. Whether it happened that way, or another way, or your way doesn't make any difference at this point.

Dude, you brought it up. When somebody responds, it's a little late to say the issue is irrelevant.

But I agree that the guilt or innocence of AK and RS doesn't depend on this issue. Your theory seemed a new way to keep alive the myth that RS called the carabinieri after and only because the postal police arrived, and that simply is not true.

 

[Allusonz]

But he couldn't be worried/anxious since he was involved in a murder, was standing at the crime scene, and saw policemen (of any sort) driving around looking at the cottage... yeah right.

Plus this subject doesn't make any difference to the proceedings now... it is just something I 'thought' personally. Whether it happened that way, or another way, or your way doesn't make any difference at this point.

Why would anyone be concerned if they had done not committed a murder? Your reasoning does not make sense. If that had of been me, I would be no where near that cottage. I would of continued on with my plans in the hopes that the discovery would take much longer and as this was an important holiday in Italy it could of been very likely this would not of been discovered for much longer if AK had not of gone home, showered, noted things that seemed out of place, grabbed a mop, taken it back to RS's, and then returned said mop after telling RS what she had seen. I first would not of gone home to shower let alone called the police.

As for concern over the postal police, RS did not call them he called a different department. The postal police were responding with respect to a different call from a different person regarding 2 cell phones. There is simply no logic in your statement

 

[Nova]

Question - I'm not familiar with how appeals work in Italy.
Are convictions ever, rarely, never overturned?
Is the best one can expect just a sentence reduction?
Can a sentence be lengthened?

I've read that first appeals in Italy are quite different from appeals here in the States and the overturning of convictions is more common; however, I haven't seen any hard figures.

I believe the prosecution has indeed asked that AK's and RS' sentences be lengthened, so apparently that is possible.

What I have NOT heard anything about is the likelihood that sentences would be reduced or what would have to happen for that to occur. It's too late for AK or RS to opt for a fast-track trial and that's the only ground for reduction I've heard about. This does not mean that others don't exist.

 

[Allusonz]

Exactly!!!In retrospect, one knows it was a murder scene, so judges. But as Amanda says, that did not enter her mind. Consider this: I knew someone in Pittsburgh in the early '90s, he had just worked an all night shift. He came home to his rental that he shared with his roommate. The front door was slightly a jar, but he figured his roommate left it that way. There were coins on the stairs, and a gold chain, but he figured his roommate had dropped coins and that maybe his girlfriend had dropped her necklace. There was blood in the hallway, but he thought his roommate had cut himself. He went to lie down. It was not until he went to go take a shower, and found his roommate fully clothed in the tub with his throat cut, dead, that he realized a burglary/murder had occurred and went to call 911.

Oh SMK I am terribly sorry to hear this!!!!

You do bring up some very valid points. Most do not think little things out of the ordinary mean that it is indeed a murder. There have been numerous times I have returned home to find the wind had blown open my door after my children had not closed it completely and there was nothing wrong with the locks.

They were simply in a rush to make it to the bus stop in time to catch the bus. I certainly never considered that a murder had occurred in my home. Just that the kids "did it again"

 

[Nova]

Why would anyone be concerned if they had done not committed a murder? Your reasoning does not make sense. If that had of been me, I would be no where near that cottage. I would of continued on with my plans in the hopes that the discovery would take much longer and as this was an important holiday in Italy it could of been very likely this would not of been discovered for much longer if AK had not of gone home, showered, noted things that seemed out of place, grabbed a mop, taken it back to RS's, and then returned said mop after telling RS what she had seen. I first would not of gone home to shower let alone called the police.

As for concern over the postal police, RS did not call them he called a different department. The postal police were responding with respect to a different call from a different person regarding 2 cell phones. There is simply no logic in your statement

Exactly. Whatever happened to perps distancing themselves from the crime?

Even assuming that AK came home to take a shower in the a.m. in order to muddy the crime scene, why didn't she and RS just proceed on their holiday?

Or conversely, if AK and RS did indeed spend the night cleaning up the apartment (something the forensics don't show), why return for a morning shower and risk leaving more traces of her DNA behind?

I appreciate why the break-in seems odd to people. But IMO those oddities pale in comparison to wild theories that must be created to explain AK's and RS' participation in the murder.

 

[dgfred]

Indeed they do.

And Hendry discusses at length why that particular window, while physically challenging, offered numerous advantages in terms of visibility and avenues for escape if discovered while outside.

So it is physically challeging to enter, but offers 'advantages' for an avenue of escape. Geewiz, y'all are champion :spinner:

What would be one of the 'numerous' advantages in terms of visibility? How would that offer a better escape route than the back of the cottage where that was on the edge of the town?

No burgler in their right mind would scale that window (especially one that had seen the layout of the cottage) when a simple entry point would have been in the back on the balcony.

But it sure is somewhat entertaining to see all these 'spins' over a scene/action that has been proven by the prosecution as being a staged break in. This is not under appeal... and will never be.

Please return to your regularly scheduled programs. :crazy: