Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #5

[Seven]

From what I'm reading this type of thing (underage or young marriages to older men)has been going on for a long time, even before Jeffs took over. Granted, the more bizarre and cruel aspects seem to have arrived with his taking over but even some of those existed within the various far flung outposts of the sect.

Correct. This FLDS polygamist sect has branches in both Canada and Mexico as well as the "home base" of Short Creek (now named Hildale Utah/Colorado City, Arizona) where LE last raided in 1953 for the same reasons, as this article in a 1953 Life Magagzine article shows,

"The Short Creekers are a “fundamentalist” heretical splinter of the Mormon church, who live underneath vaulting red cliffs – the Towers of Tumurru – in one of the most inaccessible parts of the U.S., 150 miles from the nearest railroad. They believe “in all the doctrines and covenants of Joseph Smith,” including communal living and the famous 132nd section sanctioning polygamy, which the orthodox Mormon Church renounced in 1890. But last July the sovereign state of Arizona in the person of 200 state troopers ---five troopers per Short Creek man---descended on the colony.

Without making a direct charge of polygamy, the troopers arrested the men on charges of conspiriacy to violate a host of laws from statutory rape to misappropriation of school funds. Governor Howard Pyle accused the community of being “unalterably dedicated to the wicked theory that every maturing girl child (usually before she reached the age of 16) should be forced into multiple wifehood with men of all ages.”

While the Short Creek men were in jail, the state packed nearly all of the town’s 85 women and 250 children 450 miles away to Phoenix. . . . the state’s disclosure of its intention . . .to place the children as state welfare charges in suitable Mormon homes."


http://helpthechildbrides.com/coloradocity/life1953/index.htm

 

[SewingDeb]

Do other parents get a hearing before their children are taken from them?

Or does The State take your kids away/place them in
foster care FIRST, then give parents a hearing afterwards?

The hearing comes after they are placed in a foster home I believe. They have had one hearing but no one knows which child belongs to who so DNA has been ordered and another hearing scheduled. They really don't have a choice but to keep the children until this is straightened out.

 

[golfmom]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080425/NATION/50255940

........
She grew up in the Latter-day Church of Christ, a polygamous Mormon sect also known as the Kingston family. At age 20, she became the second wife of her older sister's husband; the couple bore eight children together.

"My children and I lived in dire poverty in a two-and-a-half bedroom house," Mrs. Erickson said.

Her husband lived separately from the family, and she was prohibited from disclosing their true relationship to others — including to the couple's own children — so as not to raise the suspicion of the civil authorities.

"My children didn't have a father," Mrs. Erickson said. "They had to grow up with my sister's children calling him 'dad,' while my children could never call him by anything other than his name. My children never had an identity of a father."

Nevertheless, Mrs. Erickson thinks that her children are more fortunate than FLDS children who are raised as a group, because many FLDS children also do not know their mother's identity.

"These children have difficulty bonding or relating to others," she said.

 

[SewingDeb]

What are the chances that all those who escaped tell the same story and none of it is true? If half of what they say is true, these compounds should have been shut down ages ago!

 

[mollymalone]

That's what I meant. Underage brides have been a factor for a long time, but Warren Jeffs, through his ever-tightening control of the FLDS has introduced a new level of fear and sanctions for misbehavior that supersedes previous presidents - prophets.

I agree, especially with his pronouncements about blood atonement. Scary.

Bistline's book has a large excerpt online and it clearly shows that under Leroy Johnson and Rulon Jeffs the excommunicating and underage brides were occurring. It also shows a portrait of Jeffs paranoia and his meglomania.

Chapter 120 deals with Sexual abuses against the girls and Chapter 114 is Teenage Boy victims of the Goon squad. 191: Molding Girls to be obedient wives. From the index of the book (included on the page) it's clear that Bistline covers a lot of issues within the sect. He includes the "scriptures" the flds uses to justify their actions. There have been numerous revolts and splits among the sect as well. It's clear that the marrying off of 12 year olds and other young ages has been common for a long time.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NM...g=Wfl69VB2zhyda-xtIBDBgqCIh7k&hl=en#PPA191,M1

 

[mollymalone]

What are the chances that all those who escaped tell the same story and none of it is true? If half of what they say is true, these compounds should have been shut down ages ago!

The problem with shutting them down was the religion factor. Public opinion earlier on saw only the children being taken from mothers in the Short Creek raid and after that it was considered political suicide to go after them I suppose. Part of the problem was charges on polygamy, no one wants to open that can of worms, yet there have been prosecutions against individual members for other crimes such as the underage age marriage or abuse.
However, some of the sentences were so lenient they were laughable considering the crimes.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy448.html

Forgot the link but here's where another article can be found:
Blind Eye to Culture of Abuse Blind Eye to Culture of Abuse Children of a polygamist sect have been exploited,
molested for years.
The Los Angeles Times/May 12, 2006

 

[Seven]

The hearing comes after they are placed in a foster home I believe. They have had one hearing but no one knows which child belongs to who so DNA has been ordered and another hearing scheduled. They really don't have a choice but to keep the children until this is straightened out.

I can see that, but is that the same enforcement procedure they follow with, for lack of a better word, "normal" parents/ "normal" children?

 

[mollymalone]

http://books.google.com/books?id=NM...g=Wfl69VB2zhyda-xtIBDBgqCIh7k&hl=en#PPA191,M1

When Beth Cook was twelve years old, Leroy Johnson gave her as a plural wife to a man old enough to be her grandfather. And he gave Beth's nine year old sister to the same man. In time they escaped. Tom liked his new wives young, which is evident by their ages, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, and fifteen. Tom told a friend he should marry his wives young so he could train them the way he wanted.

 

[Leila]

I agree, especially with his pronouncements about blood atonement. Scary.

Bistline's book has a large excerpt online and it clearly shows that under Leroy Johnson and Rulon Jeffs the excommunicating and underage brides were occurring. It also shows a portrait of Jeffs paranoia and his meglomania.

Chapter 120 deals with Sexual abuses against the girls and Chapter 114 is Teenage Boy victims of the Goon squad. 191: Molding Girls to be obedient wives. From the index of the book (included on the page) it's clear that Bistline covers a lot of issues within the sect. He includes the "scriptures" the flds uses to justify their actions. There have been numerous revolts and splits among the sect as well. It's clear that the marrying off of 12 year olds and other young ages has been common for a long time.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NM...g=Wfl69VB2zhyda-xtIBDBgqCIh7k&hl=en#PPA191,M1

Molly............the "blood atonement" is, indeed, very scary. Of great concern is the furnace that Warren Jeffs built at YFZ that was much hotter than needed for any sort of normal use. It arouses suspicions that it's use may have been intended to destroy evidence.

I haven't had time to read Bistline's online book, but hope to do so in the next few days.

 

[LinasK]

There's a lot of those women who could be charged for child abandonment (for sons they put out on the street) and for not protecting their child from sexual or other abuse. Those who were raised and kept isolated I can see where they might not feel able to do anything, especially with the threat of physical violence or death hanging over their heads. But hell, even those isolated like Carolyn, or Flora, or the others we've read about KNEW instinctively that abuse wasn't right and knew they had to leave to protect their children. So I find it hard to find sympathy for many of those who are spinning the mantra of "there's choice here." I don't find an underage child having a "choice" in the matter of sex with an adult, nor do I find choice in putting up guard shacks, barbed wire and regimenting people's lives with fear.

:clap::clap::clap: Excellent post Molly, you said it all!

 

[Love_Mama]

Sorry I don't mean it in a bad way. But they are saying that the woman in colorado could have made those calls. But I don't see it. I believe that the "sarah" who made the call is an actual real person, and these calls were legit.

But if they are focusing all there attention on the woman in colorado, then the sarah that made the calls, has yet to be found, . I don't think they should give up on trying to locate her.

Sorry that it sounded wrong the way I wrote it, I have been busy moving a friend, and just something I thought of. It was in no way meant as a disrespect.

LadyBass I read your first post.........and I don't think you have to apologize one bit.

I think I too can recognize the voice of a black person, went to school with ton's of black people, was the only white music major to ever graduate from this school, have been around the music business for years, and have very close friends and neighbors who are black but are educated and speak just like I do. . I've been called "UGLY" which to a young black girl mean's 'good lookin'........a white 'honkey by the the black kids at the playgrounds where I worked.........So what!


Hey, does nobody here watch Saturday nite live or the late nite shows.
Get over it. I don't think LadyBasses comment was not the least disrespectful and those of you who think so I consider 'white honkies'!

P.S. I am also voting for Barack Obama.
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

xxxxxxxooooooo
mama

Back to thread............sorry to interupt.

xxxxooooo
mama
:blowkiss:

 

[Seven]

There's a very good reason polygamy is outlawed, and the FLDS version is a good/very sad example. All you have to do to see that is "Do the Math".......

The very requirement that a man have a minimum of 3 wives to attain Heaven means that at least 2/3 of the boys/men will have no chance of either marrying or attaining Heaven.

And the reality is that the leader, “the prophet” historically assigns to himself a grossly unfair percentage of girls/women, upwards of as many as 30, 50, etc., leaving that same number of men without even 1 wife and thereby subject to the whims of the alpha males who naturally want to “thin the herd” by finding ways to kick out the young bucks.

That type of “lion pride” society is not conducive to the best interests of human boys and girls.

And, of course, the same principle would apply across the board to polygamy in general, IMHO.

 

[mollymalone]

Molly............the "blood atonement" is, indeed, very scary. Of great concern is the furnace that Warren Jeffs built at YFZ that was much hotter than needed for any sort of normal use. It arouses suspicions that it's use may have been intended to destroy evidence.

I haven't had time to read Bistline's online book, but hope to do so in the next few days.

There's a few pages there, enough to know its probably got a lot of interesting information in the book. Wasn't that furnace built for a powder coating plant? If so, there are pics of that building included in the photos on the link I posted where the photographer documented the building of the compound from the beginning.

 

[mollymalone]

:clap::clap::clap: Excellent post Molly, you said it all!

Thanks! I did see where some of the young women were given a "choice". They were given a list of men's names on it and they had to choose from the list or their choice would be made for them. That's not a choice by any means.

 

[LinasK]

LadyBass I read your first post.........and I don't think you have to apologize one bit.

I think I too can recognize the voice of a black person, went to school with ton's of black people, was the only white music major to ever graduate from this school, have been around the music business for years, and have very close friends and neighbors who are black but are educated and speak just like I do. . I've been called "UGLY" which to a young black girl mean's 'good lookin'........a white 'honkey by the the black kids at the playgrounds where I worked.........So what!

xxxxxxxooooooo
mama

Back to thread............sorry to interupt.

xxxxooooo
mama
:blowkiss:

Exactly, and as a former Speech Pathologist for 13 years I can also attest that her comment was NOT racist, there are different vocal characteristics to different races. Black voices tend to be lower in pitch, as well as many using "Black English" or regional accents, like the South. These are physiologic and learned differences, not racism. People can identify races by intonation, without seeing the person. It's done over the phone all the time, as has been pointed out. Not everyone speaks unidentifiable perfect King's English!

 

[Mygirlsadie]

Actually it's possible as I am almost right every time. But anywho I think this race issue thing has had it's ten minutes of fame on this thread so i'll drop it..

That's not possible. Not every black person speaks exactly the same way. I find this to be a rather ignorant statement.

 

[Seven]

About "choice" in FLDS the only choice a girl has is to say"yes" or "no," when The Prophet tells her which man she now belongs to. And if she says no . . .

Bound by Fear: Polygamy in Arizona
For decades the state has let a feudal colony of fundamentalist Mormons force underage girls into illegal polygamous marriages
By John Dougherty
published: March 13, 2003

"On a December morning four years ago, Ruth sought the advice of the Prophet of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 88-year-old Rulon Jeffs. Ruth asked the stroke-ridden Jeffs for permission to marry Carl Cooke, a young man she had been seeing secretly for several months.

Jeffs pondered the question for a moment and then delivered a startling pronouncement.

"Well," Jeffs said, gesturing toward Rodney Holm, a police officer who had escorted Ruth to the meeting, "I feel she belongs to you."

Ruth was stunned, but not surprised. She barely knew Holm, but what she did know was disturbing.

At 32, Holm was twice her age.

And Rodney was already married – to two women, one of whom (his first wife) is Ruth's sister, Suzie."

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/content/printVersion/172264

 

[Leila]

I have nothing but respect for the Texas law enforcement and the CPS. Their response to the YFZ ranch was based on a phone call from a 16-year-old who told of abuse. They had no way going in to know that a few weeks down the road, that call would become suspect and a possible hoax.

LE and CPS went into the YFZ ranch with the intention of talking to and removing Sarah from the compound. What they saw within the confines of the ranch prompted a second search warrant and the removal of all the children. Based on initial information, they believed that about 200 people lived at the YFZ ranch. Again, they had no way of knowing that children were being hidden, moved from buildings not yet searched to buildings that had already been searched.

The real number of people living at the YFZ ranch was a surprise to all involved, but the authorities managed to cope. The initial living conditions were not the best, but all the children and mothers had a roof over their heads, beds, food, and other necessities. The local people pitched in and provided toys and other needed items. CPS quickly moved well over 500 people to Fort Concho and other facilities to better accommodate those removed.

When the court ordered that the children remain in the state's custody and that DNA testing be done to identify the children and their parents, CPS was able to get the testing underway in a matter of days, and also sought out the best solution to possible long-term care for the children.

I was very impressed with the pictures of two of the group facilities for some of the children, and the efforts of CPS to keep siblings together and in an environment that in some way resembles their usual home life. I think CPS has done a commendable job in trying to keep the children in a suitable environment that's respectful of their upbringing.

So until we see evidence to the contrary, I applaud the efforts of all those involved.

 

[Seven]

So until we see evidence to the contrary, I applaud the efforts of all those involved.

So do I. That's why I'm hoping the FLDS parents were treated the same way other parents are treated.

Do other parents get individual hearings before their children are taken from them?

Or does The State take the kids away/place them in
foster care FIRST, then give the parents a hearing afterwards?

 

[southcitymom]

Exactly, and as a former Speech Pathologist for 13 years I can also attest that her comment was NOT racist, there are different vocal characteristics to different races. Black voices tend to be lower in pitch, as well as many using "Black English" or regional accents, like the South. These are physiologic and learned differences, not racism. People can identify races by intonation, without seeing the person. It's done over the phone all the time, as has been pointed out. Not everyone speaks unidentifiable perfect King's English!

I was a recruiter for seven years and always interviewed people over the telephone before I met them face to face. It was exceedingly rare that when I met someone, they didn't look like I thought they would based on their dialect. It would have been racist if I had decided not to meet with someone because they "sounded" like a certain race or nationality, but I surely don't think it's racist to make the observation.