Was BR involved? #2

[tovarisch]

She was absolutely certainly NOT stinking, DeeDee. She had been dead for less than 12 hours, and she was a healthy very small child.

She did NOT stink when her father carried her remains upstairs.

I'm really offended by your characterization of what happened when her father brought her remains upstairs.

By the way, none of us know how we would react if we found our preschooler tortured to death in our home. I don't know how I would react, at all. I certainly would grab up the remains and bring them into the public area. Are the people who think the Ramseys murdered her thinking that they should have said hey cops, come here, wow we've found her? There is no way to categorize what a grieving father would do, finding her remains in the state they were in.

I will share personal. My first young husband died, heart arrest. He was into sports. I was not around at the tragic moment, I saw him alive that morning and the next time I saw him three days later at the funeral house. I came to the casket and asked everybody -- Who is he? It`s not my husband! And I started screaming--It`s not him! !It`s not him. I looked down-- and it was not him ! I was angry why I need to be there and where is my beloved husband now, what they did to him? I almost moved out of the funeral sight, not willing to say good-by to a dead man I was told was my husband and he was not , then one relative came closed to my face, and she said looking right into my eyes with a strong voice-It`s him! It`s him and he is dead, admit it. And I looked at her and asked- Are you sure? She said-Yes. And that was it. I looked at the casket and now it was my husband. It was denial on my behalf until other person brought me to a reality. The same with John.He knew she was dead, but he needed somebody to tell him that verbally. I`m not trying to convert anybody, but my surreal experience was something to do with the fact I had not seem my husband dying.

 

[UKGuy]

They cannot get DNA samples from a minor without parental consent. There are, of course, ways of getting it surreptitiously- for example. saliva from the glass, etc. Maybe even skin cells from a comb or hairbrush. He is old enough to give it now, but of course he never will. Yet, they did match his fingerprints to those on the glass. And there is said to be his DNA on the pink nightie (Patsy's too). Cynic is the DNA expert here- it is possible to match BR's from Patsy's I think. Not the prints, though. Doesn't mean he had to give prints at that time, but he may have had prints taken at another time.

DeeDee249,
mmm, dna samples. Well both parents contributed to BR's existence, so a combination of both can determine BR's genome!


.

 

[UKGuy]

I will share personal. My first young husband died, heart arrest. He was into sports. I was not around at the tragic moment, I saw him alive that morning and the next time I saw him three days later at the funeral house. I came to the casket and asked everybody -- Who is he? It`s not my husband! And I started screaming--It`s not him! !It`s not him. I looked down-- and it was not him ! I was angry why I need to be there and where is my beloved husband now, what they did to him? I almost moved out of the funeral sight, not willing to say good-by to a dead man I was told was my husband and he was not , then one relative came closed to my face, and she said looking right into my eyes with a strong voice-It`s him! It`s him and he is dead, admit it. And I looked at her and asked- Are you sure? She said-Yes. And that was it. I looked at the casket and now it was my husband. It was denial on my behalf until other person brought me to a reality. The same with John.He knew she was dead, but he needed somebody to tell him that verbally. I`m not trying to convert anybody, but my surreal experience was something to do with the fact I had not seem my husband dying.

tovarisch,
Thank you for sharing such a personal point in your life. I get where you come from and appreciate one cannot disregard others opinion. Maybe JR wanted to make the world a better place, etc?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I will share personal. My first young husband died, heart arrest. He was into sports. I was not around at the tragic moment, I saw him alive that morning and the next time I saw him three days later at the funeral house. I came to the casket and asked everybody -- Who is he? It`s not my husband! And I started screaming--It`s not him! !It`s not him. I looked down-- and it was not him ! I was angry why I need to be there and where is my beloved husband now, what they did to him? I almost moved out of the funeral sight, not willing to say good-by to a dead man I was told was my husband and he was not , then one relative came closed to my face, and she said looking right into my eyes with a strong voice-It`s him! It`s him and he is dead, admit it. And I looked at her and asked- Are you sure? She said-Yes. And that was it. I looked at the casket and now it was my husband. It was denial on my behalf until other person brought me to a reality. The same with John.He knew she was dead, but he needed somebody to tell him that verbally. I`m not trying to convert anybody, but my surreal experience was something to do with the fact I had not seem my husband dying.

I am so sorry for you loss. Grief and denial go hand in hand sometimes. We had a family in our church and their son died as an infant. It was a sad funeral. But what people remember most is the father taking the casket and saying he was not leaving him there. It was heart breaking.
People do incredible things in grief. Some laugh, Some cry, some wail, Some don't make a sound, Some scream, Some look for someone to explain it to them.

DeeDee249

It is also interesting to note that JR seemed to be VERY careful not to touch her body. He carefully carried her upright, like a mannequin. He held her around the waist, about a foot away from his own body. Linda Arndt was greeted by the horrific sight of JB seeming to "walk" up the stairs from the basement, grotesquely stiff, discolored, and stinking, with a cord dangling from her throat. Her mouth open, forever fixed in a silent scream of horror, not the least of it caused by her knowing WHO had done this to her- the last face she saw was someone she loved. Nope- he wanted NO part of his daughter now.

LA only knows what she was thinking not what he was thinking. Has LA ever lost a child in that manner? Does she know what grief looks like on everyone? IT is a ludicrous characterization of what happened that day. LA is not psychic or even a good cop IMO. She did not handle the scene and she went on her emotions not facts to come up with a summary of what was going on.
What shows me it was grief is him carrying her upstairs at all. He still wanted to get her help. One thing I never forgot is in the CA and people were talking about it being an accident that was covered up from the pool was that one of the officers, or first responders said that he had seen parents try to revive obviously dead children. That they are never too gone for a parent to want someone to try and save them.
I think JR's reaction fits that to a tee. And it has basis in fact. AS opposed to LA, and her psychic analysis of the situation.

Not everyone grieves in a way that suits the people around them. IMO

 

[stmarysmead]

There were two huge upheavals in the Ramsey family prior to Jon Benets murder: the death of JR's daughter Beth and PR's cancer diagnoses. I am willing to guess that JR immersed himself in his work to manage his grief...and it would seem that Patsy immersed herself in JB's Paegant career as a way to deal with her issues. Where did that leave Burke?

I think Patsy was well aware that Burke was "playing doctor" with Jon Benet. IMO, she saw this as more of a threat to HERSELF, if exposed, than to JB, if it continued.

I think she tried to manage it by running to the Family Dr...( who later said, didn't he, that he would destroy JB's medical records before he would hand them over) and probably convincing herself it was just a matter of a "little bit of molestation" (didn't her own Mother minimize it that way?) I think she convinced herself that it was a phase that would pass. Concerned as she was with being the perfect woman, with the perfect homes, and the perfect children...I think that Christmas night, she encountered a nightmare and has to improvise while in a state of shock, to deal with it.

I agree with all of you who believe that the kidnapping hoax was an attempt to protect her surviving child and the family image. Patsy was obsessed with impressing others. First, pageants that said..."see how much more beautiful I am than you.."
Then, house tours..."see how much more money we have than you."
Then, Jon Benets Paegant career..the Ramsey beauty AND their money on display again."

How mortified she would be to have JB's abuse discovered in addition to being known as the Mother of a child who killed. The alternative choice and the one she made, was to style herself, as adored public sufferer...even ordering Jackie Kennedy type mourning hats. ( I'd have had to have someone brush my teeth after this horror...but Patsy had to keep up appearances.)

I often wonder what the last years of her life were like. With the public split as to whether she was a tragic victim or a murdering fiend, she certainly could, at the least, never be someone...that everyone else wished they could be. I imagine her "comfortable" circle was very small.

WAs the family mostly in Charleroix? Did Burke graduate from high school there? Did that become the principle family home till Patsy died?

Anyway, my opinion only.

Thanks to all of you knowledgable people who make this a place where the debate is so informed and conducive to pushing aside the clutter.

 

[stmarysmead]

I am so sorry for you loss. Grief and denial go hand in hand sometimes. We had a family in our church and their son died as an infant. It was a sad funeral. But what people remember most is the father taking the casket and saying he was not leaving him there. It was heart breaking.
People do incredible things in grief. Some laugh, Some cry, some wail, Some don't make a sound, Some scream, Some look for someone to explain it to them.

DeeDee249
LA only knows what she was thinking not what he was thinking. Has LA ever lost a child in that manner? Does she know what grief looks like on everyone? IT is a ludicrous characterization of what happened that day. LA is not psychic or even a good cop IMO. She did not handle the scene and she went on her emotions not facts to come up with a summary of what was going on.
What shows me it was grief is him carrying her upstairs at all. He still wanted to get her help. One thing I never forgot is in the CA and people were talking about it being an accident that was covered up from the pool was that one of the officers, or first responders said that he had seen parents try to revive obviously dead children. That they are never too gone for a parent to want someone to try and save them.
I think JR's reaction fits that to a tee. And it has basis in fact. AS opposed to LA, and her psychic analysis of the situation.

Not everyone grieves in a way that suits the people around them. IMO

No matter who did what to whom...JR. and PR were in shock.

The more troubling thing to me is trying to understand why...after reading the horrific threat to her little girl in the random note...and being informed that they were bring watched...JB would be beheaded if they informed LE...why would Patsy summon all their friends to the house at that very early hour?

I think fear of the "watching" kidnappers would have trumped any shock or emotion. She literally was putting her child in deadly danger with those calls.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

No matter who did what to whom...JR. and PR were in shock.

The more troubling thing to me is trying to understand why...after reading the horrific threat to her little girl in the random note...and being informed that they were bring watched...JB would be beheaded if they informed LE...why would Patsy summon all their friends to the house at that very early hour?

I think fear of the "watching" kidnappers would have trumped any shock or emotion. She literally was putting her child in deadly danger with those calls.

They called the police. I think we would all do that. And their friends? That is normal to me. I would call my best friend ASAP. Your child is missing I don't think she read the whole note, I think she just read that and wanted and needed help.

 

[otg]

(rsbm)

As to JonBenet‘s state of decomposition, there are a couple of references in books:
Linda Arndt felt the body for a neck pulse, noticed the odor of decay . . .Thomas, IRMI
Ramsey placed JonBenét on a rug, just inside the front doorway. Arndt could see the child’s lips were blue. It was obvious that JonBenét was dead. There was an odor of decay, and dried mucus from one of the child’s nostrils was visible. Schiller PMPT

And add to the "odor of decay" the fact that her bladder had emptied into the clothes she was wearing, all of which was tightly wrapped up "like an Indian papoose" in her favorite blanket. I don't think anyone can assume with all this going on that her cold, stiff, dead body "was absolutely certainly NOT stinking."Additionally , I imagine the urine was still wet, so that might also have been part of the reason John held her body at arm's length while carrying it -- not wanting to get any of it on his clothes (JMS, just my speculation).

 

[stmarysmead]

At that moment, that note...whatever it said...would be the most important thing in my life. Every word would be precious. Maybe the last line would say..."fooled you, we are hiding in the closet."

That note ...several pages long...was the instruction manual on how I could get my precious baby back. Yes, I can see screaming for John before finishing it, but IMO, a mother's instinct...would be to read that instruction manual and see what my next step would be.

The RN is clear that they are being watched, that they should NOT call the police...that JB will be beheaded...BEHEADED...if the Watchers find out the Ramsey's disobeyed. Now, Patsy can make calls and avoid the Watchers...but summoning a group to her house in the wee hours....this makes no sense in the context of innocence...in my opions only, of course.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

At that moment, that note...whatever it said...would be the most important thing in my life. Every word would be precious. Maybe the last line would say..."fooled you, we are hiding in the closet."

That note ...several pages long...was the instruction manual on how I could get my precious baby back. Yes, I can see screaming for John before finishing it, but IMO, a mother's instinct...would be to read that instruction manual and see what my next step would be.

The RN is clear that they are being watched, that they should NOT call the police...that JB will be beheaded...BEHEADED...if the Watchers find out the Ramsey's disobeyed. Now, Patsy can make calls and avoid the Watchers...but summoning a group to her house in the wee hours....this makes no sense in the context of innocence...in my opions only, of course.

And here in lies the problem. That is how you think, But not how everyone thinks. All ransom notes say don't call anyone including the police, but people do. Of course they do. I most likely would have been able to read past the opening line either. What do you do you call the police.

 

[stmarysmead]

And here in lies the problem. That is how you think, But not how everyone thinks. All ransom notes say don't call anyone including the police, but people do. Of course they do. I most likely would have been able to read past the opening line either. What do you do you call the police.

Of course, the waiver of "individual response" could be used as an excuse in any crime: I can imagine Cindy Anthony waving off accusations against her daughter by saying, "Well, maybe YOU would have reported the baby missing, but that's not how everyone thinks." And to some degree, it works...but not when there is a totality of strangeness that incorporates more than one example.

In this case, Patsy picks up the note, and if I am to believe in her innocence...has in her hand, the only resource to saving her child's life. The note is terrifyingly explicit. I think it's very reasonable that an intelligent woman, who had been instrumental in building her husbands business, would read the WHOLE THING. She read contracts for JB's Paegant career. What could be more important than this template to safely retrieve her child from kidnappers?.


And certainly, JR would read it.

JR built a billion dollars business and he encountered contracts every day. The RN was the most important contract he ever held in his hand. In business, if a deal precludes publicity before signing...a man like JR is scrupulous in seeing that secrecy is enforced. Would he do less with his child's life at stake?

Are we to believe that he would let Patsy assemble their entire social group just for solace...when JB's life was hanging in the balance? What could the party circuit of Boulder add to the scene that AM? They would have no idea who this "foreign faction" was.

And when hours passed, there was no outburst from JR or PR when the random call never came? If I am to believe in their innocence...that call was anticipated with every breath they took. Can't you imagine the tension?...waiting...waiting...that note and the follow up call is the only link to their Baby! How "individual" can a parent be, that no phone call from the kidnappers wouldn't elicit a of despair? "Oh, my GOD...it's ten minutes past! Why aren't they calling? What has gone wrong?"

The only answer, in my opinion, is that neither the note nor the call mattered to JR or PR. They knew they needn't heed any warnings or wait for any phoned instructions. JR and PR blew off the random note and forgot about the call.

IMO, because they knew all along where JB was. So the note and the call were easily ignored.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Of course, the waiver of "individual response" could be used as an excuse in any crime: I can imagine Cindy Anthony waving off accusations against her daughter by saying, "Well, maybe YOU would have reported the baby missing, but that's not how everyone thinks." And to some degree, it works...but not when there is a totality of strangeness that incorporates more than one example.

In this case, Patsy picks up the note, and if I am to believe in her innocence...has in her hand, the only resource to saving her child's life. The note is terrifyingly explicit. I think it's very reasonable that an intelligent woman, who had been instrumental in building her husbands business, would read the WHOLE THING. And certainly, JR would.

JR built a billion dollars business and he encounters contracts every day. The RN was the most I portent contract he ever held in his hand. In business, if a deal precludes publicity before signing...a man like JR is scrupulous in seeing that secrecy is enforced.

Are we to believe that he would let Patsy assemble their entire social group just for solace...when JB's life was hanging in the balance? What could the party circuit of Boulder add to the scene that AM? They would have no idea who this "foreign faction" was.

And when hours passed, there was no outburst from JR or PR when the random call never came? If I am to believe in their innocence...that call was anticipated with every breath they took. Can't you imagine the tension?...waiting...waiting...that note and the follow up call is the only link to their Baby! How "individual" can a parent be, that no phone call from the kidnappers wouldn't elicit a of despair? "Oh, my GOD...it's ten minutes past! Why aren't they calling? What has gone wrong?"

The only answer, in my opinion, is that neither the note nor the call mattered to JR or PR. They knew they needn't heed any warnings or wait for any phoned instructions. JR and PR blew off the random note and forgot about the call.

IMO, because they knew all along where JB was. So the note and the call were easily ignored.

It is not an excuse. It is a variable that can not be denied in any case. What about the woman who found her son beheaded in the bathroom and laughed on the 911 call. She did nothing to him, He was murdered and she had nothing to do with it but in that moment, She had an odd reaction.
You can not control how you react to grief and loss.

It always has to be considered. IMO

 

[otg]

Of course, the waiver of "individual response" could be used as an excuse in any crime: I can imagine Cindy Anthony waving off accusations against her daughter by saying, "Well, maybe YOU would have reported the baby missing, but that's not how everyone thinks." And to some degree, it works...but not when there is a totality of strangeness that incorporates more than one example.

In this case, Patsy picks up the note, and if I am to believe in her innocence...has in her hand, the only resource to saving her child's life. The note is terrifyingly explicit. I think it's very reasonable that an intelligent woman, who had been instrumental in building her husbands business, would read the WHOLE THING. She read contracts for JB's Paegant career. What could be more important than this template to safely retrieve her child from kidnappers?.


And certainly, JR would read it.

JR built a billion dollars business and he encountered contracts every day. The RN was the most important contract he ever held in his hand. In business, if a deal precludes publicity before signing...a man like JR is scrupulous in seeing that secrecy is enforced. Would he do less with his child's life at stake?

Are we to believe that he would let Patsy assemble their entire social group just for solace...when JB's life was hanging in the balance? What could the party circuit of Boulder add to the scene that AM? They would have no idea who this "foreign faction" was.

And when hours passed, there was no outburst from JR or PR when the random call never came? If I am to believe in their innocence...that call was anticipated with every breath they took. Can't you imagine the tension?...waiting...waiting...that note and the follow up call is the only link to their Baby! How "individual" can a parent be, that no phone call from the kidnappers wouldn't elicit a of despair? "Oh, my GOD...it's ten minutes past! Why aren't they calling? What has gone wrong?"

The only answer, in my opinion, is that neither the note nor the call mattered to JR or PR. They knew they needn't heed any warnings or wait for any phoned instructions. JR and PR blew off the random note and forgot about the call.

IMO, because they knew all along where JB was. So the note and the call were easily ignored.

Excellent post, stmarysmead. I've never read it more clearly and succinctly expressed as to just how strange that whole scene was that morning with the way the Ramseys were acting (or reacting).

 

[DeeDee249]

She was absolutely certainly NOT stinking, DeeDee. She had been dead for less than 12 hours, and she was a healthy very small child.

She did NOT stink when her father carried her remains upstairs.

I'm really offended by your characterization of what happened when her father brought her remains upstairs.

By the way, none of us know how we would react if we found our preschooler tortured to death in our home. I don't know how I would react, at all. I certainly would grab up the remains and bring them into the public area. Are the people who think the Ramseys murdered her thinking that they should have said hey cops, come here, wow we've found her? There is no way to categorize what a grieving father would do, finding her remains in the state they were in.

Were you there? Because the detective who WAS there said her body had the "odor of decay" exact words. Too bad if you're offended. I'm offended by the death of this child, very likely at the hands of her family, and they got away with because they had friends in high places. If you don't like my posts, put me on "ignore" It's easy to so.

 

[ninaskids]

the reason Patsy called all their friends including cops, was the note was a fake that she herself wrote!
She needed a bumper between herself and John, and between herself and any police that might want to take her to the police station or question her. She needed chaos, and support and loud talk, etc. Anything to confuse the authorities.

What about a cop who said Patsy was watching him through splayed fingers over her face? I find that one thing to be so telling. She is no longer in shock or upset about the death. The shock of what happened will hit later. Right then, it was major control of the situation.

I fully believe JR planned to fly his family OUT to Atlanta and never gave another thought about it. He would have said JB is gone, kidnapped and you can contact us in Atlanta we don't need to be here. He was so sure that no one would stop them. People who are powerful and rich actually think they are above suspicion and above the law.

But I guess he planned to close up the house and leave JB body there? And then somehow it would be discovered? By then he and Patsy would be in Atlanta and good luck getting them back to Boulder.

Thank goodness a quick thinking cop said they could not leave town. But in the end it didn't matter, they lawyered up BEFORE the 911 call was made. You can bet on that.

 

[Meara]

Of course, the waiver of "individual response" could be used as an excuse in any crime.....And to some degree, it works...but not when there is a totality of strangeness that incorporates more than one example.

This is a very important point and beautifully said. When individual response is made to explain the preponderance of unusual behavior, something's off. No one lands outside the bell curve that many times.

 

[DeeDee249]

the reason Patsy called all their friends including cops, was the note was a fake that she herself wrote!
She needed a bumper between herself and John, and between herself and any police that might want to take her to the police station or question her. She needed chaos, and support and loud talk, etc. Anything to confuse the authorities.

What about a cop who said Patsy was watching him through splayed fingers over her face? I find that one thing to be so telling. She is no longer in shock or upset about the death. The shock of what happened will hit later. Right then, it was major control of the situation.

I fully believe JR planned to fly his family OUT to Atlanta and never gave another thought about it. He would have said JB is gone, kidnapped and you can contact us in Atlanta we don't need to be here. He was so sure that no one would stop them. People who are powerful and rich actually think they are above suspicion and above the law.

But I guess he planned to close up the house and leave JB body there? And then somehow it would be discovered? By then he and Patsy would be in Atlanta and good luck getting them back to Boulder.

Thank goodness a quick thinking cop said they could not leave town. But in the end it didn't matter, they lawyered up BEFORE the 911 call was made. You can bet on that.

I always wondered what would have happened if the Rs had been allowed to leave. Obviously, they knew they would be leaving her body behind, but remember by then, police KNEW it was a murder because JR was overheard making that phone call AFTER he found her body. That is why they stopped him. I also agree that they contacted their lawyers before the 911 call. That was also one of the reasons the DA didn't want to get a warrant for the phone records.

 

[ninaskids]

I always wondered what would have happened if the Rs had been allowed to leave. Obviously, they knew they would be leaving her body behind, but remember by then, police KNEW it was a murder because JR was overheard making that phone call AFTER he found her body. That is why they stopped him. I also agree that they contacted their lawyers before the 911 call. That was also one of the reasons the DA didn't want to get a warrant for the phone records.

Yes you are right he made that call to the pilot pretty quickly didn't he? Wow. I had forgotten that.

I do think the used their cell phones to get lawyers and tell what happened and what do we do now? I am still so unsure about the injury timeline. Cyril Wecht the forensic path, says the strangulation came first and the vaginal penetration was not rape, it was digital and what he called "gentle" ...

So he says the strangulation came first simply because there was not a lot of blood collected from the head injury. then for some reason somebody just hauled off and knocked the bees out of her head. Good grief. Why do additional injury?

I could see Burke or Patsy causing an head injury in anger but was truly accidental. Then they cover up.

But, if you go with what Wecht claims, that choking was first, it was not Burke. He was just 10 in a month. he wouldn't do something like that. But there is another person who could be involved that the family would cover for. Who may have been getting into the house and doing things with JB but unknown to the family!!

Not only would Patsy cover for this person who killed her daughter (not out of love) but to prevent the entire family from being disgraced, JRs business not get sold for the millions he wanted for it, and basically they could have all gone to jail for child abuse leading to murder!

Patsy took JB to the doctor over and over to see WHY her child was having constant bladder infections and what not. And this dr said he did not use a specula for the exam. I think that is pretty standard with children. He said infection was because of bubble bath. But had he examined fully he would have seen damage internally and the Ramseys could have tried to prevent it.

Now who was doing it? If not John Ramsey then who, who who? Think think think.

There was a neighbor who said he saw a man in the alley behind the Ramsey house sometime near the murder. Not sure if it was that night or the night before. Resembling JAR. then suddenly this man shut up and claimed he was just old and didn't know what he was saying....hmm.

So why did JAR have an attorney and why did his mother have an attorney along with every person in the immediate family??

Just spinning my wheels. Just asking questions. of course no one can prove anything and we are all speculating and it is all my opinion.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes you are right he made that call to the pilot pretty quickly didn't he? Wow. I had forgotten that.

I do think the used their cell phones to get lawyers and tell what happened and what do we do now? I am still so unsure about the injury timeline. Cyril Wecht the forensic path, says the strangulation came first and the vaginal penetration was not rape, it was digital and what he called "gentle" ...

So he says the strangulation came first simply because there was not a lot of blood collected from the head injury. then for some reason somebody just hauled off and knocked the bees out of her head. Good grief. Why do additional injury?

I could see Burke or Patsy causing an head injury in anger but was truly accidental. Then they cover up.

But, if you go with what Wecht claims, that choking was first, it was not Burke. He was just 10 in a month. he wouldn't do something like that. But there is another person who could be involved that the family would cover for. Who may have been getting into the house and doing things with JB but unknown to the family!!

Not only would Patsy cover for this person who killed her daughter (not out of love) but to prevent the entire family from being disgraced, JRs business not get sold for the millions he wanted for it, and basically they could have all gone to jail for child abuse leading to murder!

Patsy took JB to the doctor over and over to see WHY her child was having constant bladder infections and what not. And this dr said he did not use a specula for the exam. I think that is pretty standard with children. He said infection was because of bubble bath. But had he examined fully he would have seen damage internally and the Ramseys could have tried to prevent it.

Now who was doing it? If not John Ramsey then who, who who? Think think think.

There was a neighbor who said he saw a man in the alley behind the Ramsey house sometime near the murder. Not sure if it was that night or the night before. Resembling JAR. then suddenly this man shut up and claimed he was just old and didn't know what he was saying....hmm.

So why did JAR have an attorney and why did his mother have an attorney along with every person in the immediate family??

Just spinning my wheels. Just asking questions. of course no one can prove anything and we are all speculating and it is all my opinion.

I do not agree with Wecht. He is one of the ONLY experts in the case who says the strangulation came first because he wants to push his theory of it being an erotic asphyxiation. I totally disagree. There is NO reason for the head bash then- she couldn't have screamed during the asphyxiation. Doubt she could have screamed in between. And the ligature furrow was circumferential- anyone who has seen the autopsy photos, especially the one that shows the back of her neck, can tell that this wasn't a "pull and release multiple times" strangulation, which is usually done with an erotic asphyxiation.
JAR and his mother had attorneys obtained by JR right away for one purpose - to keep police away from them. Why? Because they KNOW something. There is no other reason.
No pediatrician uses a speculum on a little girl as part of a regular exam, or even to treat irritation or infection. An EXTERNAL exam is ALL that JB's doctor performed.
As far as the neighbor, the late Joe Barnhill claimed to see JAR walking into the house THAT day, I believe. Then he later claimed he wasn't sure, he was old, etc. I believe he changed his story after R lawyers got to him. I cannot imagine why any other college-age man would be going into the house while the family was home, especially if JAR was supposed to be in Georgia and his college friends wouldn't be visiting him in Boulder.

 

[Mama2JML]

RSBM

I do not agree with Wecht. He is one of the ONLY experts in the case who says the strangulation came first because he wants to push his theory of it being an erotic asphyxiation. I totally disagree. There is NO reason for the head bash then- she couldn't have screamed during the asphyxiation. Doubt she could have screamed in between. And the ligature furrow was circumferential- anyone who has seen the autopsy photos, especially the one that shows the back of her neck, can tell that this wasn't a "pull and release multiple times" strangulation, which is usually done with an erotic asphyxiation.

Wecht is NOT alone. Spitz also believed the abrasions and the "roughly triangular" bruise/abrasion (*whatever term you prefer*) came before the head blow was inflicted. ...as did Doberson.

One doesn't need to adopt Wecht's speculative, hypothetical EA scenario to accept the consistent analyses of three expert medical examiners. Spitz, Doberson, and Wecht found evidence of attempted strangulation occurring before the injuries sustained from the head blow.