Was BR involved? #2

[AmyPond]

Is there some place to hear the full 911 call?

ETA - Nevermind. Found it. Didn't hear anything at the end though.

 

[Tadpole12]

here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?116882-911-Call&p=9975166#post9975166

 

[PositiveLight]

Hmmm... watching the teaser clips for Dr. Phil. BR gives me the whillies. I don't know why. The constant smiling sets my teeth on edge. I hope the new interview clears up some questions.
But honestly, when Dr. Phil asks him why he wanted to speak out on his show, all I could think was, "Um Phil you are paying the most." I wonder how much money he makes on this interview.

 

[Madeleine74]

BR had some ongoing issues before his sister was killed. He was in psychological counseling or perhaps seeing a psychiatrist (records were sealed). There were behavioral issues, possibly psycho-sexual (source: Kolar's book). The full nature of BR's issues are not known because of those sealed records. It doesn't mean he did kill JBR, but yes, there were 'issues' with BR.

 

[AmyPond]

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense, even just from the small amount of things I've seen/read.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

BOESP: "Laying blame for one's actions or inactions on someone else is a manipulation technique and I thoroughly believe that both Patsy and John were manipulators used to getting what they wanted by whatever means necessary. "
And there are so many examples of the Ramseys doing just that. We wanted to cooperate fully with the police but our lawyers wouldn't let us! We never hired those lawyers, a friend of ours arranged the whole thing. It wasn't our idea to tape that disastrous CNN interview, our friends insisted we do it. At one point John Ramsey said in an article that FLEET WHITE told them to do it. The irony! We're not guilty of anything, there's just a big conspiracy against us on a local and federal level. For starters.

Anyway, I don't necessarily put much stock in his opinion, but when the Grand Jury true bills were released, Tom 'Doc' Miller talked to Peter Boyles (who is staunchly anti-BDI), and he seems to fall on the BDI side. Miller is the husband of Judith Phillips, the photographer who was on Dateline last night. Judith is interviewed in PMTP and at some point she was friends with the Ramseys, who she met through her first husband, an attorney or maybe accountant for JR a few years before the murder. She was close enough with Patsy to go on vacation with her at one point, but how much she really knew about the Ramseys isn't clear to me. Obviously she photographed them a lot. Either way, I wonder what she thinks of his theory as someone who knew the family. I'd also like to know how much of this was told/confirmed to him by an outside party and how much of it is just his speculation. Especially the comment about "tremendous jealousy" between Burke and Jonbenet.
[video=youtube;tjmmOUoIO-M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjmmOUoIO-M[/video]

"I believe something happened between Burke and Jonbenet. I don't know what, I wasn't there. But I do know that there's, there (fumbles for words)...were certain signs that, uh, Jonbenet was being abused. In that house. Uh, and then, for whatever reason, I believe that a crime was completed then covered up by John and Patsy. And I believe that firmly because there's no doubt in my mind that Patsy wrote that note. And you don't write...uh, you don't write the War and Peace...notes like that [...] unless you're involved. And she was involved. "

When asked again what the thinks happened after they got home from the White's party, Miller points out the pineapple then expresses doubt on John's story that he and Burke were putting together a toy. Points out that B's birthday was coming up.

"He was one month shy of being 10 years old. And a child under the age of ten can't be charged with a crime in Colorado. So, uh, I don't think they were putting toys together at 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock at night. I don't think that's what was happening. Uh, Jonbenet, we know, was leaving...was wetting the bed and leaving feces in her bed, indications of sexual abuse. Uh, and we know there was tremendous jealousy between Burke and Jonbenet. Uh, we know that he had struck Jonbenet once before, I believe with a golf club. So I believe something went wrong between Burke and Jonbenet. I don't know what. I can't imagine what was going on. But then after that, Patsy and John make a determination that's something's wrong and something has to be covered up. After all, *someone* hit Jonbenet so hard in the head that, as they say, it would have felled a 300lb man. Now, I don't know that Burke could have done that. But we do know a garrote was put around Jonbenet's neck. She was then, either realistically or simulated sexual tortured [sic]. And a ransom note was produced. A tremendous ransom note was produced in Patsy Ramsey's handwriting. And didn't the Grand Jury say, 'failed to protect her'? (After discussion PB reads off charge, Child abuse resulting in death.) Well, and it appears as if Patsy wrote the note. She had something to do with it. John completely backs her up and is willing to sue the world to keep everybody silent, so he's complicit in it." They skip forward to that morning and the 911 call.

PB: "Do you think they heard Burke's voice on that tape?"
TM: "I don't *think.* They did hear Burke's voice. Uh, Burke says something to the effect of, what should I do? What's going on, what should I do. And you hear John's voice in the background saying, we're not talking to you now."
They discuss Burke already being awake when the is "woken up" and not having any questions when brought downstairs to the kidnapping scene.

 

[BBB167893]

The problem is when any of us insert what we would do in a similar situation and then make conclusions about it, that makes for an invalid argument.

It's not about *us,* it's what this family did, what their decisions were, and it was based on their rationale, good, bad, indifferent, or evil. It's really hard to do, but as Dr. Pitt or one of the lead investigators mentioned, one has to remove themselves from the equation and look at a case based on the facts.

Most people go off their feelings about things. Even Lou Smit made that error. "Well I wouldn't do what John or Patsy did..." That's correct, you probably would not. But the case isn't about you or me or what any of us would or wouldn't do.

Beautifully said, M74.

 

[BBB167893]

Lin Wood was On Fire! last night on Twitter.

I'd like to see him set...never mind. It's too easy.

 

[BBB167893]

LW is a piece of work and gets so defensive. Yeah, we get your a lawyer in civil and defamation law cases. You missed your calling as a defense lawyer. Now he practices solo- must be a hard person to be around because he always wants to be right. Anyway- he gets under my skin. Also, IIRC Kolar in his book states he carefully wrote this book but if litigation was ever a threat- he would then finally get to question BR under oath. So LW- we got you # and bluff.


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Yeah, Wood promising a lawsuit. Like Napoleon promising that Russia would be a pushover.

 

[madeleine]

Hmmm... watching the teaser clips for Dr. Phil. BR gives me the whillies. I don't know why. The constant smiling sets my teeth on edge. I hope the new interview clears up some questions.
But honestly, when Dr. Phil asks him why he wanted to speak out on his show, all I could think was, "Um Phil you are paying the most." I wonder how much money he makes on this interview.

I would have preferred he said for the cash, I need it, instead of ,well, to honor her memory....cause it definitely doesn/t sound like that to me...

 

[Mountain_Kat]

BR had some ongoing issues before his sister was killed. He was in psychological counseling or perhaps seeing a psychiatrist (records were sealed). There were behavioral issues, possibly psycho-sexual (source: Kolar's book). The full nature of BR's issues are not known because of those sealed records. It doesn't mean he did kill JBR, but yes, there were 'issues' with BR.

If he was, in fact, seeing a counselor prior to JB's death, I have to wonder if the "naked under the porch" story that one of the babysitters told to investigators, might have played a part in the family seeking counseling. If memory serves, when DeMuth asked PR about the incident, she said that Burke was 7 (?). That would have been just 2 years prior to JB's death.

 

[ConcernedinDC]

From the brief Dr. Phil clips my two observations:
1. His Facebook photos were posted a few years back and he appeared completely average/normal. Pictures with a girlfriend, parties, normal smile, etc... He doesn't appear social awkward or like someone who needs to work alone
2. I guess I can see the "why is everyone so obsessed with this kids are murdered all the time why my sister?" Type attitude but, I thought the comment about "where's my baby!!!???" Was super off... I mean if he is over JB okay but, your talking about your deceased mother being extremely distraught. I would think that would be a painful memory... If it was a real memory.

 

[FrankieB]

Can you please elaborate on the naked under the porch story? I have heard about this incident. And yes, in his earlier pictures he appears to have an active normal social life. The behaviour on Dr. Phil suggests social awkwardness, could it be he's now taking medication? Just speculation.

 

[Madeleine74]

What we're seeing that's different is a 3D Burke, walking, talking, discussing, reacting. None of those things can be seen in a 2D picture that captures 1 second in time. It's Burke's affectation that people are noticing. Not so much his ability to have friends or work or any of that. Burke's facial expressions and smiling when discussing his sister's death. His nonchalant countenance. It's those things that people are seeing for the first time and it's those things that are garnering a reaction.

 

[otg]

Can you please elaborate on the naked under the porch story? I have heard about this incident. And yes, in his earlier pictures he appears to have an active normal social life. The behaviour on Dr. Phil suggests social awkwardness, could it be he's now taking medication? Just speculation.

Patsy's 1998 interview (http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?9945-Patsy-Ramsey-BDA-interview-June-23-1998):

7 TRIP DeMUTH: A couple of questions
8 Tom. With Evan Colby, was there ever a time
9 when Burke and Evan were under the porch without
10 their clothes on something, like that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Can you tell me about
13 that?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think
15 Cynthia Savage, my housekeeper-nanny, told me
16 about that one time. They were, there isn't a
17 porch to be under, but I think Evan taught Burke
18 that it was easier to go pee-pee outside than to
19 take the time to go inside to go pee-pee, so he
20 sort of taught him how to go behind the tree.
21 Evan is a little guy.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: How little is little
23 Evan?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I want to say
25 Burke was probably six or seven, Evan was 7 or
0120
1 8, or something like that. And Suzanne told me
2 she came out and saw -- I think she said they
3 were kind of by where we kept this trash can,
4 sort on the left side of the garage and Evan had
5 his pants down showing Burke his -- works.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Would Burke also have
7 his pants down or not?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think
9 I heard that.
​

 

[PositiveLight]

What we're seeing that's different is a 3D Burke, walking, talking, discussing, reacting. None of those things can be seen in a 2D picture that captures 1 second in time. It's Burke's affectation that people are noticing. Not so much his ability to have friends or work or any of that. Burke's facial expressions and smiling when discussing his sister's death. His nonchalant countenance. It's those things that people are seeing for the first time and it's those things that are garnering a reaction.

Nailed it! Good observation!

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[PositiveLight]

Patsy's 1998 interview (http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?9945-Patsy-Ramsey-BDA-interview-June-23-1998):

7 TRIP DeMUTH: A couple of questions
8 Tom. With Evan Colby, was there ever a time
9 when Burke and Evan were under the porch without
10 their clothes on something, like that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Can you tell me about
13 that?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think
15 Cynthia Savage, my housekeeper-nanny, told me
16 about that one time. They were, there isn't a
17 porch to be under, but I think Evan taught Burke
18 that it was easier to go pee-pee outside than to
19 take the time to go inside to go pee-pee, so he
20 sort of taught him how to go behind the tree.
21 Evan is a little guy.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: How little is little
23 Evan?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I want to say
25 Burke was probably six or seven, Evan was 7 or
0120
1 8, or something like that. And Suzanne told me
2 she came out and saw -- I think she said they
3 were kind of by where we kept this trash can,
4 sort on the left side of the garage and Evan had
5 his pants down showing Burke his -- works.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Would Burke also have
7 his pants down or not?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think
9 I heard that.
​

Thank you I was also wondering about that.

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[Tadpole12]

I'd like to see him set...never mind. It's too easy.

That's not right, SD.

 

[observation]

I am really looking forward to the interviews with BR. I have watched every clip posted and went to the Dr.Phil website as well (all are here..BTW). What I would really love to know is how JR felt about his son doing these interviews.
BR has a nervous smile which is made much more obvious by Dr. Phil's affect. I must admit he asks the tough questions and appears to have done a great job interviewing him (so far...before we see the full picture).



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[eileenhawkeye]

From the brief Dr. Phil clips my two observations:
1. His Facebook photos were posted a few years back and he appeared completely average/normal. Pictures with a girlfriend, parties, normal smile, etc... He doesn't appear social awkward or like someone who needs to work alone
2. I guess I can see the "why is everyone so obsessed with this kids are murdered all the time why my sister?" Type attitude but, I thought the comment about "where's my baby!!!???" Was super off... I mean if he is over JB okay but, your talking about your deceased mother being extremely distraught. I would think that would be a painful memory... If it was a real memory.

1. I agree with you about his social media. I've been low-key looking him up every so often and he did not seem socially isolated at all. Maybe memories of his sister make him regress back to his childhood.

2. IDK...I can't imagine Jacob Wetterling's brother (before his case was solved) having that attitude about his brother's case. Burke's parents have been telling the world for 20 years that an intruder killed their daughter, so why is he acting shocked that people are still interested? It makes me think that in Burke's mind, JonBenet died by accident, so yes, it probably is very baffling that complete strangers care.