Was Burke Involved? # 4

[UKGuy]

They blew past that part of the crime so fast my head spun! H. Lee actually said that the wood from the paintbrush may have accidentally transferred! I was like, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?? How does something get from outside a 6 year old's vaginal vault to the INSIDE unless it is put there or carried there by something else?? It was no accident, and that cellulose didn't walk in there on its own!

I have to think that either there was a liability issue on that aspect, or yes, they were going to deal with it in depth in the 2 hours that were cut. Or, they just didn't want to stress the sexual aspect of the crime lest people think it was about sex v. violence?

Heymom,
BBM: He likely thinks its all staging? Its either the result of a sexual assault or the accidental transfer during a staging event?

I think it was Steve Thomas who said the cellulose or the splinter found inside JonBenet was sourced to the broken paintbrush?

The only real clue is Coroner Meyer citing Digital Penetration which suggests the paint brush had been broken prior to this, and we could be talking staging?

Alternatively you have both paintbrush and digital penetration yet you still have to decide between staging or sexual assault?

Once you establish that why was it all cleaned up and hidden from view, e.g. long johns and blanket?

.

 

[UKGuy]

IIRC they said the 'wood' was literally only visible under a microscope, could it have been cellulose as in toilet paper?

When they said there was no sexual assault could it be that they are being legally correct and that the injuries were inflicted post-mortem which would be 'abuse of a corpse' and not 'sexual assault'?

They had the autopsy report too so their interpretation of it is confusing to me after all these years of thinking one way and now hearing another opinion.

TeaTime,
Abuse of a corpse would follow if the paintbrush was broken then JonBenet was Digitally Penetrated during some ritual post-mortem behavior?

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[Heymom]

Heymom,
BBM: He likely thinks its all staging? Its either the result of a sexual assault or the accidental transfer during a staging event?

I think it was Steve Thomas who said the cellulose or the splinter found inside JonBenet was sourced to the broken paintbrush?

The only real clue is Coroner Meyer citing Digital Penetration which suggests the paint brush had been broken prior to this, and we could be talking staging?

Alternatively you have both paintbrush and digital penetration yet you still have to decide between staging or sexual assault?

Once you establish that why was it all cleaned up and hidden from view, e.g. long johns and blanket?

.

But she had bled from the paintbrush. If you don't call being stabbed in the vagina sexual abuse or sexual assault, what do you call it? I guess it's not necessarily sexual in nature, but an effort to cover up the prior sexual abuse, but the actions themselves still consist of abuse, do they not?

 

[UKGuy]

But she had bled from the paintbrush. If you don't call being stabbed in the vagina sexual abuse or sexual assault, what do you call it? I guess it's not necessarily sexual in nature, but an effort to cover up the prior sexual abuse, but the actions themselves still consist of abuse, do they not?

Heymom,
Without more information its a difficult call. I guess this is why the BPD phrased it as Vaginal Trauma something I never fully comprehended, but now I reckon we could be looking at post-mortem ritualized behavior, toss in the train tracks and it appears coherent?

Then along come the parents cleanup and redress JonBenet, re-purpose the cord and paintbrush, voila we have a crime-scene?


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[SecretaryGal]

DENVER — Grand jurors who reviewed evidence in the death of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey indicted both of her parents for child abuse resulting in death and being an accessory to a crime, including first-degree murder, according to documents released Friday. nice attitude btw.

If your charged with accessory then the other would be the murderer and vice versa. Why I mentioned evident they haven't establish who used the garrote.

Then they would have received true bills as such. But they didn't, which means a third party was involved

 

[ThinkHard]

How do you explain how he knew where JonBenet's vaginal opening was? Someone had to show him, and more than once. Sex education classes don't happen until the 5th grade, and even then, they are usually limited to sex-segregated material - girls learn about their own equipment and boys, theirs.

And some children are more curious and more aggressive in their curiosity then others. Whether you want to believe this to be true or not, it simply just is. There are plenty of studies about sexually aggressive children available to the public that will tell you the same thing I am. Sexual aggression in children is not an accurate predictor if child abuse. Period.

I'm not eliminating the idea he wasn't shown sexual material, or wasn't exposed to innapropriate touching. I'm just saying we can not say that conclusively.

http://www.atsa.com/children-sexual-behavior-problems

 

[ThinkHard]

It's my understanding that sexual aggression in children has a 65% predictive value for abuse (not necessarily sexual abuse) and soiling/toileting issues have a 45% predictive value.

Here are some quick studies I found:

"Behavioral and family characteristics of sexually aggressive children were obtained from a national convenience sample of treatment providers to gain descriptive data and to investigate the tentative use of a social learning theory model of sexual aggression of children. One hundred fifty-five professionals responded to a questionnaire of their work with a total of 287 sexually aggressive children aged 12 and under. A number of family variables may have impacted the children's sexual behavior. The average child resided in a two-parent home, and in most of these families (70%), at least one caretaker was chemically dependent; 48% have at least one parent known to have been sexually abused; and 72% of the children were sexually abused themselves (60% by a caretaker). The children with known sexual abuse histories were younger at first sign of sexual aggression than those without known sexual abuse histories. Children under 6 years of age were more likely to perceive their sexually aggressive behavior as normal than were older children. Differences based on gender of the children were not found for sexual aggression."

"Studies of very young children with sexual behavior problems suggest that 49% to 80% have been sexually victimized."

In many if the studies I have seen its usually around 50%......but considering that's a coin toss....statistically that makes it a poor predictive value....it's basically saying it could go either way.

 

[Heymom]

And some children are more curious and more aggressive in their curiosity then others. Whether you want to believe this to be true or not, it simply just is. There are plenty of studies about sexually aggressive children available to the public that will tell you the same thing I am. Sexual aggression in children is not an accurate predictor if child abuse. Period.

I'm not eliminating the idea he wasn't shown sexual material, or wasn't exposed to innapropriate touching. I'm just saying we can not say that conclusively.

http://www.atsa.com/children-sexual-behavior-problems

But I think we can all agree, that this type of behavior doesn't manifest in healthy families, right?

 

[Heymom]

In many if the studies I have seen its usually around 50%......but considering that's a coin toss....statistically that makes it a poor predictive value....it's basically saying it could go either way.

From your link:

Whereas sexual behavior is the most common behavioral indicator of child sexual abuse, the presence of sexual behavior problems should be viewed with caution as a sole indicator of sexual abuse.

Although the link between identified sexual abuse and sexual behavior problems has been well established, other precursors to this behavior exist but are less understood. It appears that a child’s exposure to family sexuality, nudity and sexual behavior in the media, domestic violence, physical abuse, and neglect are also related to problematic sexual behavior in children.

Bolded by me.

 

[ThinkHard]

That is likely part of the answer - that they didn't want to push the sexual abuse issue b/c it would throw at least some of the viewing audience straight back into the IDI scenarios. No, JonBenet had not been penetrated by an adult male penis, the autopsy was clear on that. But her hymen was eroded away from penetration by something, something about the size of another child's finger. People who know what that looks like, know that JonBenet fit that specific profile. Whoever had previously abused JonBenet had a lot at stake after the ME examined her. Part of the coverup was to try and disguise and blur the picture that emerged, but it didn't work very well. If Lou Smit hadn't come along, would the Ramseys have had a lot more scrutiny? Entirely possible. He was their best friend.

Why couldn't it have been her own finger?

 

[ThinkHard]

But I think we can all agree, that this type of behavior doesn't manifest in healthy families, right?

Unfortunately it can. Though this would be the least likely scenario. Sometimes it's just the way they are born, they come in seeing everything differently, and the world becomes a frightening place where no one understands them. Ever either families doing everything they can, there are still hrs and yrs if not a lifetime of stress and worry, and testing, and confusion, and misunderstanding and anger....it's hard.

 

[ThinkHard]

From your link:

Whereas sexual behavior is the most common behavioral indicator of child sexual abuse, the presence of sexual behavior problems should be viewed with caution as a sole indicator of sexual abuse.

Although the link between identified sexual abuse and sexual behavior problems has been well established, other precursors to this behavior exist but are less understood. It appears that a child’s exposure to family sexuality, nudity and sexual behavior in the media, domestic violence, physical abuse, and neglect are also related to problematic sexual behavior in children.

Bolded by me.

Yes? And?

Did you also note this line above it?

"the presence of sexual behavior problems should be viewed with caution as a sole indicator of sexual abuse"

 

[BBB167893]

Why couldn't it have been her own finger?

To do all THAT?

 

[TeaTime]

What door of hell opened in that house that night?

I am going to pray for BR and JR.

 

[carolinea]

Why couldn't it have been her own finger?

A panel of experts who reviewed the autopsy and the evidence determined that it wouldn't have been created from masturbation, including one man who had (at that point) pioneered various studies in changes in the genitalia of abused children as a way of identifying abuse. He had twenty years of experience at the time.

 

[carolinea]

Yes? And?

Did you also note this line above it?

"the presence of sexual behavior problems should be viewed with caution as a sole indicator of sexual abuse"

I don't think anyone here is using it as the "sole indicator." There are other factors, like bed-wetting, soiling and feces smearing that are also indicators of abuse.

But I think we can all agree, that this type of behavior doesn't manifest in healthy families, right?

Unfortunately, they do. There are also many children who are abused outside the home--by a friend, a coach, a teacher or neighbor, etc.--and act out within their family.

 

[ThinkHard]

To do all THAT?

To do all what? It was stated that the object that would have caused damage to her hymen would have been the size of a child's finger.....so I said could it have been her own?

I have worked with a little 4 year old who master aged aggressively both with her own finger and with objects like pens and pencils. She was not abused, she had not been shown innapropriate material, thus behaviors had started in infancy and were do to her Sensory Processing disorder. Masterbating basically became her way to cope with stress and anxiety.

 

[ThinkHard]

A panel of experts who reviewed the autopsy and the evidence determined that it wouldn't have been created from masturbation, including one man who had (at that point) pioneered various studies in changes in the genitalia of abused children as a way of identifying abuse. He had twenty years of experience at the time.

Right, yes this has been mentioned, but as I said then, and as I'll say now....it's unlikely that statement was taking into consideration the extreme possibility of aggressive masterbation. They were making that statement in terms of what normal touching would do to an average 6 year olds vagina.....they were not even considering the possibility that such extremes could be self inflicted....as awareness of Sensory Processing disorders basically was non existent even to professionals in the field of child development at that time. So if somethings not on your radar, it will obviously not be considered.

I just don't think what normal touching would do, and the evidence left by what this child was doing would be the same as each other. I think there would be considerable differences. And without knowing this child's history, I wouldn't even be surprised that if a hypothetical evaluation was down on her private area, that an ME wouldn't misinterpret what they saw.

 

[ThinkHard]

I don't think anyone here is using it as the "sole indicator." There are other factors, like bed-wetting, soiling and feces smearing that are also indicators of abuse.



Unfortunately, they do. There are also many children who are abused outside the home--by a friend, a coach, a teacher or neighbor, etc.--and act out within their family.

Yes they are indicators, which is precisely my point. We cannot say for certain so we have to be cautious about conclusions being drawn. They are also signs and indicators of other problems as well.

I'm simply saying we need to consider multiple causes and not just assume the cause is abuse.

 

[ThinkHard]

Btw if anyone is interested in learning more about Sensory Processing or Dysfunction issues "the out of sync child" is a great resource.