Was Burke Involved # 5

[flourish]

Trying not to get peed upon from the pissing contest to check the thread... Oh right it's about jonbenet.

 

[otg]

^^^ :giggle:

 

[UKGuy]

Certainly not my area of expertise, but I don't think spectral analysis is required to confirm -- only to measure. No opacity here. Even cellophane is birefringent. More about birefringence here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birefringence


I don't know their reasoning. I'd like to think they had it analyzed and knew the answers to their questions before asking them; but I just don't know. Your guess is as good as mine (maybe :wink.


Unfortunately, a lot of opportunities were missed in some of these interviews. Remember though, BPD wasn't allowed to do the questioning in this interview. The Ramsey lawyers had bargained to get the interviewers only from the DA's office (DeMuth and Haney). Probably the BPD investigators had submitted questions to the DA's office, but not knowing her answer ahead of time, they couldn't know what followup questions should be asked. And also it's worth noting that DeMuth wasn't exactly unfriendly with the Ramsey legal team.

otg,

Certainly not my area of expertise, but I don't think spectral analysis is required to confirm -- only to measure.

It is required to confirm that is its function, it's how we say Mars has different elements from Jupiter, etc.

If Coroner Meyer knew on observing the birefringement material to be that of paintbrush shards of wood then he could state that in his autopsy report. He chose the phrase birefringement material which can refer to many different elements.

So it looks to me, on this subject, Coroner Meyer is being deliberately opaque? A parallel here is the long johns described as such in the autopsy report as

long white underwear with an elastic band containing a red and blue stripe. The long underwear are urine stained anteriorly over the crotch area and anterior legs.

That the crotch area is designed for male use is absent from the report.

Otherwise years ago, the question why is JonBenet wearing her brother's long underwear would have been asked?


Patsy must have known in advance that questions about blood were to be asked, so being clever pointed out that no blood could be seen in the photographs.


BPD detectives probably thought that the bloodstain originated in JonBenet's bedroom rather than the pillow relocating to JonBenet then back again.

So we have JonBenet in her bedroom antemortem, perimortem and potentially postmortem, i.e. the R's concede JonBenet was moved, but only down to the basement?


.

 

[Swirlz]

These statistics are from 2015 so I don't know how helpful this is but if PDI there is nothing particularly unique about this case. Mothers kill their children all the time.

childwelfare.gov

In 2015, parents—acting alone or with another parent—were responsible for 77.7 percent of child abuse or neglect fatalities. More than one-quarter (26.7 percent) of fatalities were perpetrated by the mother acting alone, 14.7 percent were perpetrated by the father acting alone, and 22.3 percent were perpetrated by the mother and father acting together. Nonparents (including kin and child care providers, among others) were responsible for 18.7 percent of child fatalities, and child fatalities with unknown perpetrator relationship data accounted for 3.6 percent of the total.

 

[UKGuy]

The fact that JB was wearing Burke's long johns isn't surprising. Well, actually that's an assumption... It IS a fact that she was found wearing boys' long johns -- presumably Burke's. It was past practice. The following is from a Peter Boyles interview with Linda Wilcox in 1998 (bbm):

LINDA WILCOX: One more thing...I think the first summer, the summer of '94, they took the dog with them to Michigan. See Patsy took care of the dog, John took no responsibility for it whatsoever. He tolerated it at best. And, if it got anything of his, heaven forbid. I don't know this, but I think they got rid of the dog because when they were in Michigan, they were busy with pageants. They were doing other things and there was no one to look after the dog. I think they gave it to the neighbors when they left for the summer because they didn't want to hassle with the dog. Life was good for them until it was inconvenient.

Like, JonBenet, for example. She got no affection at all when she was little except maybe from their nanny. Until she started to perform or produce, she was basically ignored. At one point, John was complaining because he had to get her dressed one morning because Suzanne had been out of town. He couldn't find any clothes that matched. The reason was, she was wearing cast-offs from Burke because she didn't have any clothes of her own.

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/07211998lindawilcoxon-pb.htm

​

otg.

He couldn't find any clothes that matched. The reason was, she was wearing cast-offs from Burke because she didn't have any clothes of her own.

Presumably this is quoted out of context as JonBenet had a full wardrobe of clothes, which included pajama tops, pajama bottoms and nightgowns. See below.


BPD Interview 1997, Excerpt

TT: Okay. What kind of pajamas does Burke normally wear to bed?

PR: Oh, you know, cotton shirt and pants.

TT: Okay.

PR: knit kind of stuff.

TT: Okay. Do you remember what color of pajamas he was wearing that day?

PR: That he was wearing?

TT: Um hum.

PR: No, not exactly.

TT: Okay, how about JonBenet. What kind of pajamas was she wearing?

PR: She was wearing, that day, she was wearing pink little kind of insulated underwear sort of . . .

TT: Tops and bottoms.

PR: Tops and bottoms, you know.

BPD Interview, April 30, 1997, Excerpt

PR: And he laid her down and I got her undressed and put her, I left her shirt on her and uh, went in the bathroom and tried to find some pajama pants and all I could find was some, like long underwear pants. . .

TT: Um hum.

PR: . . .and put those on.

BPD Interview, April 30, 1997, Excerpt

ST: You took it from there?

PR: Right.

ST: And that consisted of simply getting her under the covers.

PR: Well, I changed her and took the black velvet pants off and found those, those long underwear pants and put on her.

BPD Interview June 23rd 1998, Excerpt

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.

24 She had a drawer full of nightgowns, and she

25 didn't have one nightgown she wore all the time.

0676

1 It varied.

BPD Interview June 23rd 1998, Excerpt

25 MIKE KANE: You said that she had a

0678

1 drawer full of things so she can wear the same

2 one every night?

3 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

4 MIKE KANE: Where was that, that

5 drawer?

6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was in her

7 bathroom, I believe, one of the drawers in her

8 bathroom. Cabinet.

BPD Interview Patsy June 23rd 1998, Excerpt

21 TOM HANEY: This is the pink -- excuse me --

22 the pink item that again is in a plastic bag where the

23 photo was taken.

24 PATSY RAMSEY: That is her (inaudible). Why

25 was that there?

0383

1 TOM HANEY: What is it?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.

3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie

4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you

5 know?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those

12 two nights she wore that.

BPD Interview Patsy June 23rd 1998, Excerpt

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. The nightgowns were

2 kept in the bathroom, in her bathroom in the side

3 drawer there. Her pajamas were there.

4 TOM HANEY: All of them?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Unless they were in the dirty

6 clothes.

BPD Interview Patsy June 23rd 1998, Excerpt

3 TRIP DEMUTH: Patsy, why the long underwear?

4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I remember I was digging

5 around for something. I was trying to find the pink

6 ones she wore the night before. I couldn't put my hand

7 on them right quick. And so I went to these drawers

8 looking for the pajamas, and she was just laying there,

9 so I didn't want to raise her up and get everything off

10 of her to put a long nightgown, so looking for pajamas

11 bottoms to put on her. I couldn't find any, and the

12 long underwear pants were in there drawer, so I got

13 those.

JR says JonBenet had drawer full of bed clothing, Patsy says that where they were kept, and from where she selected the long underwear.

Note throughout the interviews both the Ramsey's and BPD refer to Burk's long johns as long underwear.

For the record the long underwear does not belong to JR.


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[DeDee]

Nah, Another straight jacket of a Donald answer. how do we know those long johns are for a six year old boy and why would Patsy keep them for three years just for this occasion, i.e. JonBenet;s murder?

Patsy had a drawer full of JonBenet's pajama bottoms to chose from, she could not find the prior nights bottoms, so selected Burke's long johns, to her staging, i.e she was fitting BR up.

Is all this credible? Nah its BDI and Patsy was staging for Burke.

.

Another straight jacket of a Donald answer.

Is that something the Brits say? Who is Donald? If it is my President, the comment is totally unacceptable.

 

[UKGuy]

Is that something the Brits say? Who is Donald? If it is my President, the comment is totally unacceptable.

DeDee,
In the UK it can be rhyming slang for luck, as in Just Your Donald. Also if you jet over to Edinburgh Scotland there is a comedy show running at the Edinburgh Festival where a guy dresses as Donald Trump, complete with wig etc. Also a song is sung called Fake News. Also you can chose from any of the following:


Trumpus Interruptus: The Impeachment of Donald J Trump
Greenside, 4 to 12 August

It's 2019 and Trump's presidency is on the line. He's been in hiding after secrets from a behind-closed-doors meeting with Vladimir Putin leak. It's chaos at the White House, which is already in lockdown, as Trump fights to hold on to the presidency. Playwright Zach Tomasovic (who also plays Trump) says he looks forward to a day when this is no longer a work of fiction, but a historical reenactment.

Locker Room Talk
Traverse, 21 August

Gary McNair takes on Trump's infamous 'banter' about assaulting women in this new piece at the Traverse. McNair has interviewed an array of men and women about how people use language about women; is Trump an extreme case, or does he speak for others? Their answers form the basis of this verbatim piece which is only around for two performances, so make sure you don't miss it.


Trump'd!
C venues, 2 to 28 August (except 15)

This musical is set in 2030 and, far from being impeached, Trump is now America's supreme dictator. Performed by Cambridge Footlights (whose alumni includes Olivia Colman, Julian Fellowes, Stephen Fry, Nicholas Hytner and John Oliver to name a few), this parody musical imagines this scenario and asks what will happen to the 'Mexican Resistance', ISIS and, more importantly, Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Simon Jay as TrumpSimon Jay as Trump

Trumpageddon
Gilded Balloon Teviot, 2 to 28 August (except 9, 16 and 23)

If you want to spend a night with the man himself, you're in luck. Well, almost. Actor Simon Jay will be returning to the Fringe with his impressions of the American leader. In a blog Jay wrote for us last year, he said "I am not just trying to look and sound like Trump, I am trying to embody something of the real Trump". So with the state visit on hold for the time being, this satire, directed by Olivier nominee Dan Clarkson, might be the closest you'll get to The Donald for quite a while.
Brexit the Musical
C venues – C, 2 to 28 August (except 15)

If you really like scandal then visit Alec Salmond's show, ex leader of Scotland, who is planning to use his forthcoming show at the Edinburgh Fringe to reveal previously secret details about his arguments with Donald Trump.

Alternatively use your favorite search engine with the phrase "Edinburgh Festival Trump" for more examples.

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[Swirlz]

If BDI and John and Patsy were that desperate to cover it all up, why would they allow him to be interviewed by the police?

 

[Gossiptime]

IMO, The comment about donald is very acceptable.

 

[BBB167893]

That's the thing about this case, it's not in any textbook. What I'm thinking is it possible to profile the stager with accuracy? Investigators such as Brent Turvey and John Douglas suggest you can. In otherwords could we rule Burke Ramsey out, since we can profile Patsy in?

That's a good question. Damn good, I must admit.

 

[BBB167893]

I always come back to the foreign DNA, found at the crime scene.

Speaking of crime scene. It was almost like the perp caused the entire 'kidnapping' ruse to put LE into a different mind frame. That instead of locking the property down, everyone was scrambling, looking for a missing child. They lost possible footprints in the snow. They contaminated everything, from the get go. And it wasn't really their fault. It was almost planned for them to react as they all did. Who is that cunning? All musings of an opinionated, old man. JMO of course.

Not cunning, Jim_M. I would use the word lucky. JMO.

 

[BBB167893]

Do you understand the difference between:
faked
and
lied?

I think family is not telling the whole truth.
Burke is not telling the whole truth.
Police are faking evidence they could not for some reason show in a simple way.

btw. who did enhanced 911 Patsy's call?

That was Aerospace Corporation in California.

 

[BBB167893]

You PDI guys are all mouth and no reasoned theory, you remind me of The Donald, e.g. Its Fake News, and we are Right, get it?

HA! I say to that.

 

[otg]

If BDI and John and Patsy were that desperate to cover it all up, why would they allow him to be interviewed by the police?

Despite misconceptions in the public, they didn’t “allow” him to be interviewed by the police.

The only time anyone from BPD questioned him was before he (Burke) knew they had found her body. Sgt. Patterson went to the Whites’ house to see if he might know something that could help them find the killer because the parents wouldn’t allow him to be questioned at the Ramsey house -- not even to ask him if he heard anything during the night. When they found out about it, they were PO’d -- and even wrote about it in their book.

The next time Burke was questioned was by a child psychologist (Dr. Bernhardt, I think) who was tasked with determining if he felt safe in his home. This interview was required by child advocacy/welfare for the county.

The last time he was interviewed (ignoring the Phil McGraw farce) was by another psychologist some time after JonBenet’s death.

So actually, the Ramseys never “allowed him to be interviewed by the police.”

 

[otg]

otg,

It is required to confirm that is its function, it's how we say Mars has different elements from Jupiter, etc.

If Coroner Meyer knew on observing the birefringement material to be that of paintbrush shards of wood then he could state that in his autopsy report. He chose the phrase birefringement material which can refer to many different elements.

But did he know the “birefringent foreign material” to be “paintbrush shards of wood?” Do you know that? If so, how do you know that? I’m not so sure it’s the same thing. I suspect the birefringent material to be flaked off varnish; but I don’t know that, so I don’t base my opinion on it.

So it looks to me, on this subject, Coroner Meyer is being deliberately opaque? A parallel here is the long johns described as such in the autopsy report as
That the crotch area is designed for male use is absent from the report.

Otherwise years ago, the question why is JonBenet wearing her brother's long underwear would have been asked?

I can’t say why. Did he notice it or even give it a second thought? Was it deliberately left out of the AR? I don’t know, but I can’t attribute it to a conspiracy.

Patsy must have known in advance that questions about blood were to be asked, so being clever pointed out that no blood could be seen in the photographs.

Yeah, that one’s tough to explain otherwise -- almost as tough as trying to figure out why her interviewers didn’t ask her why she would even say that.

BPD detectives probably thought that the bloodstain originated in JonBenet's bedroom rather than the pillow relocating to JonBenet then back again.

So we have JonBenet in her bedroom antemortem, perimortem and potentially postmortem, i.e. the R's concede JonBenet was moved, but only down to the basement?

More assumptions I’m not ready to concede.

 

[otg]

otg.

Presumably this is quoted out of context as JonBenet had a full wardrobe of clothes, which included pajama tops, pajama bottoms and nightgowns. See below.


BPD Interview 1997, Excerpt




BPD Interview, April 30, 1997, Excerpt


BPD Interview, April 30, 1997, Excerpt


BPD Interview June 23rd 1998, Excerpt


BPD Interview June 23rd 1998, Excerpt


BPD Interview Patsy June 23rd 1998, Excerpt


BPD Interview Patsy June 23rd 1998, Excerpt


BPD Interview Patsy June 23rd 1998, Excerpt


JR says JonBenet had drawer full of bed clothing, Patsy says that where they were kept, and from where she selected the long underwear.

Note throughout the interviews both the Ramsey's and BPD refer to Burk's long johns as long underwear.

For the record the long underwear does not belong to JR.

If you suspect it was quoted out of context, follow the link I provided to read it for yourself. It is not. It is the words of someone who was in the home. Now you might say it was an exaggeration, or you might say it was a particular circumstance when they hadn’t done the laundry recently. You might even say Wilcox hadn’t been in the home for a period of time when Patsy changed her ways and began making sure all JonBenet’s clothing was laundered and in its place all the time. I don’t doubt that she did have some clothing that was not “hand-me-downs.” The only point I was making is that it wasn’t unusual for her to be wearing something that had previously belonged to Burke.

 

[Userid]

Userid,


Maybe there are, but that does not allow you to assume JonBenet's death falls into that category by virtue of your intellect.


There is other evidence, i.e touch-dna etc. It is not only that Burke was reponsible for his sisters death but his parents assisted in staging a crime-scene. This scenario, however outlandish explains the evidence PDI does not.

.

Of couse it does allow me to believe that. That's called "evidence to support my theory/conclusion," you should try it sometime.

You act like touch DNA is strong evidence. It isn't. I'd consider the fiber evidence from both PR and JR as stronger than the touch DNA.

 

[Userid]

Is that something the Brits say? Who is Donald? If it is my President, the comment is totally unacceptable.

Evidently, that's UKGuy's insult-du-jour. I think it's cute, considering how often and ineffectively he uses it. And he's definitely using it as in insult the poster he's attacking, at the President's expense -- which doesn't bother me personally all that much, but I can understand how it would bother you and I don't blame you.

Thanks K-Mac, yeah I think BDI is the more popular of the theories now because it's the most current.

 

[Userid]

These statistics are from 2015 so I don't know how helpful this is but if PDI there is nothing particularly unique about this case. Mothers kill their children all the time.

childwelfare.gov

Precisely, thank you Peppermintswirlz.

 

[UKGuy]

But did he know the “birefringent foreign material” to be “paintbrush shards of wood?” Do you know that? If so, how do you know that? I’m not so sure it’s the same thing. I suspect the birefringent material to be flaked off varnish; but I don’t know that, so I don’t base my opinion on it.


I can’t say why. Did he notice it or even give it a second thought? Was it deliberately left out of the AR? I don’t know, but I can’t attribute it to a conspiracy.


Yeah, that one’s tough to explain otherwise -- almost as tough as trying to figure out why her interviewers didn’t ask her why she would even say that.


More assumptions I’m not ready to concede.

otg,

But did he know the “birefringent foreign material” to be “paintbrush shards of wood?” Do you know that? If so, how do you know that? I’m not so sure it’s the same thing. I suspect the birefringent material to be flaked off varnish; but I don’t know that, so I don’t base my opinion on it.

Coroner Meyer knew it from the lab results that told him what they thought the birefringent foreign material was. I know it from reading Steve Thomas' book and cross-referencing with the Autopsy Report. In his book in the Chapter Not So Grand Jury, Thomas says: Then we had the experts assess why a tiny splinter had been found in JonBenet's vagina.

The cellulose splinter was believed to have come from the same paintbrush that had been used to make the garrote.

i.e. it had been to the lab and been identified as cellulose, more commonly known as wood, or plant material. I doubt if it had been a fragment of resin from the paintbrush Thomas would refer to it as a splinter and as cellulose?

I know it's not a 100% identification, but assuming Thomas and Meyer are straight it looks like the birefringent foreign material is a splinter of wood.

I can’t say why. Did he notice it or even give it a second thought? Was it deliberately left out of the AR? I don’t know, but I can’t attribute it to a conspiracy.

Technically its correct, yet long white underwear leaves out the fact they belonged to Burke Ramsey.

More assumptions I’m not ready to concede.

So do you think its just coincidental? Like her clothing down in the basement is bloodstained, we know she was sexually assaulted, Meyer even opines it was chronic, and he gets a second opinion to confirm it! The investigators know its JonBenet's blood before they ask, otherwise it would be does Burke suffer from nosebleeds?

In Thomas' book in the Chapter A Gathering Storm Thomas cites Meyer as telling him face to face to explain JonBenet's internal injuries, That chronic vaginal abuse was possible

If you Email Henry Lee he might confirm whether the pillow that went missing from the kitchen photos, was the same one that was found bloodstained in her bedroom?

The only other explanation for JonBenet's vaginal injuries seems to be staging, but then why wipe her down, leaving fibers behind, redress her as if you wish to undo the staged sexual assault?

To me, as per KISS and Occam, it appears JonBenet had been sexually assaulted antemortem and possibly perimortem?

.