Was Burke involved?

[UKGuy]

No semen was found anywhere in or on JB.

The small fabric "loops" that were found (on the floor of her room, I believe?) were not hair ties, but actually fabric loops that were part of her potholder weaving set. The red plastic potholder loom can be seen on her nightstand in the photos. Iy wouldn't surprise me to have it described as hairties by the investigators, who were men. Det. Arndt, while a woman, did not have children and I would be surprised if she recognized the small loops as part of a children's craft set.

As far as JB's two ponytails- she often wore a topknot, with the rest of her hair falling down long over her shoulders. She can be seen in this hairstyle at her family's Christmas party, in photos wearing a dark dress with white lace trim.
Patsy said that she would usually pull back JB's hair into a ponytail before bed. I did the same with my own daughter's long hair. In can be easily seen how JB ended up with what many consider an odd hairstyle- one ponytail at the top of the head (the topknot) and another at the nape of her neck (the bedtime ponytail). If you consider this scenario, the hairstyle she was found in is not all that unusual and has a fairly easy explanation.
It isn't hard to imagine that Patsy would have simply left the topknot ponytail in place rather than take it out with a sleepy, cranky child.
Of course, the coroner (as would most men) would not really think about this kind of thing, simply seeing her hairstyle as unusual. And the Rs, just as they did with the broken window and the moved suitcase, would certainly not come forward with the real explanation when IDI could jump all over it as further "proof" of an intruder.

DeeDee249,

No semen was found anywhere in or on JB.

This was established at the autopsy, but why do you think JonBenet's size-6 underwear is missing, and possibly also the pink pajama bottoms?

The small fabric "loops" that were found (on the floor of her room, I believe?) were not hair ties, but actually fabric loops that were part of her potholder weaving set.

Both were cited as being in evidence in her bedroom. Patsy stated in some intervew that JonBenet had been playing with her potholder weaving set in the days running up to Christmas.

Your interpretation of JonBenet's ponytails might be correct, but only if you make a specific assumption, e.g. Patsy readied JonBenet for bed, and possibly put her to bed.

Now if you are correct, then we have another example of Patsy neglecting to remove forensic evidence that contradicts aspects of her own prior version of events, since Patsy never said she put JonBenet's hair up in ponytails.

Also BPD will have pictures of JonBenet at the White's and these should show if JonBenet had two ponytails, never mind one?

So is this not curious, Patsy selects the size-12's, for whatever reason, yet leaves the hair-ties, and the breakfast bar artifacts in place, both of which demonstrate that JonBenet was awake after arriving home?

There is something wrong with the PDI theory, it simply does not explain away the available forensic evidence?

p.s.
I am starting to wonder if it was Patsy and not John who arrived late on the scene then invoked a revision of the staging?


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[DeeDee249]

I recall reading where Patsy said she often pulled JB's hair back into a ponytail for sleeping, so if you have a read where she said she NEVER put JB's hair in a ponytail, I have not seen that.

As for the semen, even if wiped away, there would have been semen traces found when she was swabbed. No one knows why the panties and pink pajama bottoms are missing, but MY guess would be that they had JB's blood on them.

While the size 12s also have her blood on them, it is only a few drops and I feel that the stagers never saw it. There was NO blood on the corresponding area (the crotch) of her longjohns, so it can be assumed that there was not enough blood to seep through to the longjohns. Dead people don't bleed. But blood can ooze from a dead person. The fact that there was so little blood on the size 12s (a few drops) indicate to me that this is exactly what happened. There was a small amount of blood found inside her vagina- on the forchette and in the vestibule. Some of this has been described as "semi-liquid". This means it had already begun to "gel", which is one of the reasons (along with the absence of blood pressure and circulation) that the dead do not bleed.

As for the hair ties- I think it VERY possible that Patsy did actually get JB ready for bed that night, and if there were any hairties around the bed or floor, it lends credence to her pulling JB"s hair into a bedtime ponytail, while leaving in the topknot ponytail as well.
Of course, the missing pink pajama bottoms are a mystery. We KNOW they existed. We do not know for sure the size 6 Bloomies existed, but she surely had on her proper size that day.
What is also a mystery? Why LE never followed up on where they were.

 

[UKGuy]

I recall reading where Patsy said she often pulled JB's hair back into a ponytail for sleeping, so if you have a read where she said she NEVER put JB's hair in a ponytail, I have not seen that.

As for the semen, even if wiped away, there would have been semen traces found when she was swabbed. No one knows why the panties and pink pajama bottoms are missing, but MY guess would be that they had JB's blood on them.

While the size 12s also have her blood on them, it is only a few drops and I feel that the stagers never saw it. There was NO blood on the corresponding area (the crotch) of her longjohns, so it can be assumed that there was not enough blood to seep through to the longjohns. Dead people don't bleed. But blood can ooze from a dead person. The fact that there was so little blood on the size 12s (a few drops) indicate to me that this is exactly what happened. There was a small amount of blood found inside her vagina- on the forchette and in the vestibule. Some of this has been described as "semi-liquid". This means it had already begun to "gel", which is one of the reasons (along with the absence of blood pressure and circulation) that the dead do not bleed.

As for the hair ties- I think it VERY possible that Patsy did actually get JB ready for bed that night, and if there were any hairties around the bed or floor, it lends credence to her pulling JB"s hair into a bedtime ponytail, while leaving in the topknot ponytail as well.
Of course, the missing pink pajama bottoms are a mystery. We KNOW they existed. We do not know for sure the size 6 Bloomies existed, but she surely had on her proper size that day.
What is also a mystery? Why LE never followed up on where they were.

DeeDee249,

I recall reading where Patsy said she often pulled JB's hair back into a ponytail for sleeping, so if you have a read where she said she NEVER put JB's hair in a ponytail, I have not seen that.

I meant in the context of the R's version of events, e.g. when Patsy prepared JonBenet for bed, after arriving back from the White's.

As for the hair ties- I think it VERY possible that Patsy did actually get JB ready for bed that night, and if there were any hairties around the bed or floor, it lends credence to her pulling JB"s hair into a bedtime ponytail, while leaving in the topknot ponytail as well.

I tend to agree with you, so if Patsy staged the wine-cellar evidence to make it appear that JonBenet had been abducted from her bed, after her parents had dressed and placed her there sleeping, why did Patsy not remove the hair-ties?

Assuming Patsy asphyxiated JonBenet she could hardly miss them.


There are too many examples of Patsy making really ridiculous errors in staging, e.g. neglecting to remove the breakfast bar artifacts, dressing JonBenet in the size-12's, now leaving the hair-ties in place. Common sense suggests each one of these alone suggests that JonBenet was awake after arriving back from the White's?


Either the PDI as we interpret it is wrong or needs to be tweaked to incorporate the above inconsistencies?



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[BOESP]

Maybe she ran out of time and left alone what she considered inconsequential.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe she ran out of time and left alone what she considered inconsequential.

BOESP,
This does not address the PDI as such , it simply appends an ad-hoc reason, as to why it must be correct.

Assuming JonBenet was injured by 1:00 A.M. the R's had the best part of 5 hours to organise some setup, so time was not a constraining factor.

Allow the evidence to speak: People suggest Patsy dressed JonBenet in the size-12's, so conjure up the illusion that it all happened on Wednesday or in underwear she may have worn to the White's, OK fine.

Yet her hair-ties are left in place, somebody overlooked them since all that was required was for Patsy to add to her version of events, was that she put JonBenet's hair up, as she slept!

One mistake is fine, everyone makes mistakes, but not three deal breakers, like the size-12's, hair-ties, and breakfast bar, even the latter could have been cleared by the friends when phoned over by Patsy.

If it was not for those missing pink pajama bottoms, I would feel confident in suggesting that JonBenet had been staged in her bed wearing the pink barbie nightgown, then someone moved her down to the basement, hence the hair-ties, real or staged.


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[BOESP]

BOESP,
This does not address the PDI as such , it simply appends an ad-hoc reason, as to why it must be correct.

Assuming JonBenet was injured by 1:00 A.M. the R's had the best part of 5 hours to organise some setup, so time was not a constraining factor.

Allow the evidence to speak: People suggest Patsy dressed JonBenet in the size-12's, so conjure up the illusion that it all happened on Wednesday or in underwear she may have worn to the White's, OK fine.

Yet her hair-ties are left in place, somebody overlooked them since all that was required was for Patsy to add to her version of events, was that she put JonBenet's hair up, as she slept!

One mistake is fine, everyone makes mistakes, but not three deal breakers, like the size-12's, hair-ties, and breakfast bar, even the latter could have been cleared by the friends when phoned over by Patsy.

If it was not for those missing pink pajama bottoms, I would feel confident in suggesting that JonBenet had been staged in her bed wearing the pink barbie nightgown, then someone moved her down to the basement, hence the hair-ties, real or staged.


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Well, to my way of thinking, five hours isn't a long time considering what happened and what would need to be done to cover it up from the offender's viewpoint, especially if the offender were a parent.

I'm going to sing my song again: I think Steve Thomas had access to more evidence than I did and I haven't seen or heard anything yet that convinces me differently.

 

[UKGuy]

Well, to my way of thinking, five hours isn't a long time considering what happened and what would need to be done to cover it up from the offender's viewpoint, especially if the offender were a parent.

I'm going to sing my song again: I think Steve Thomas had access to more evidence than I did and I haven't seen or heard anything yet that convinces me differently.

BOESP,

Well, to my way of thinking

Its the evidence we are considering not the merits of your thought process.

I'm going to sing my song again:

So you refer me to Steve Thomas, why bother posting, just post the book title.


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[sandover]

Well, to my way of thinking, five hours isn't a long time considering what happened and what would need to be done to cover it up from the offender's viewpoint, especially if the offender were a parent.

The ransom note alone probably took one hour to dream up/write (we know there were likely earlier, discarded versions). Add to that JR and PR getting their story straight, which also probably took an hour (at least).

Let's say JB was killed at 12:30 and the "act" began in earnest at 5:30 (having to ramp up to it, as it were). That leaves 5 hours, 2 of which we've already accounted for.

Now add in the distress the Ramseys must have felt about JB's accidental death that they needed to stage. That's another hour. We're down to 2...

They did not have a lot of time to do this. They were hemmed in by their morning travel plans so they had to get things rolling by 5:30. It's very easy to believe they overlooked/didn't have time to think through any number of staging dilemmas...

 

[UKGuy]

The ransom note alone probably took one hour to dream up/write (we know there were likely earlier, discarded versions). Add to that JR and PR getting their story straight, which also probably took an hour (at least).

Let's say JB was killed at 12:30 and the "act" began in earnest at 5:30 (having to ramp up to it, as it were). That leaves 5 hours, 2 of which we've already accounted for.

Now add in the distress the Ramseys must have felt about JB's accidental death that they needed to stage. That's another hour. We're down to 2...

They did not have a lot of time to do this. They were hemmed in by their morning travel plans so they had to get things rolling by 5:30. It's very easy to believe they overlooked/didn't have time to think through any number of staging dilemmas...

sandover,
Belief is a wonderful asset. Have you compared and contrasted the times with the evidence in question?


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[sandover]

sandover,
Belief is a wonderful asset. Have you compared and contrasted the times with the evidence in question?.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Put simply my point was they only had 5 hours to do this. That to me is not a lot of time so things could easily get overlooked.

If you're more specific, I'll try to respond to what you're asking of me.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Put simply my point was they only had 5 hours to do this. That to me is not a lot of time so things could easily get overlooked.

If you're more specific, I'll try to respond to what you're asking of me.

sandover,

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Well, lets select a topical subject, e.g the Antikythera Mechanism. Why choose this, because it is open to consideration of belief.

Both the Greeks and the medieval Catholic Church believed the planets rotated around the earth, that is in todays parlance, a geocentric view.

My point is belief is not something gold-plated.

Put simply my point was they only had 5 hours to do this. That to me is not a lot of time so things could easily get overlooked.

Sure stuff can be overlooked, but surely not some of the most important items, as sleuthers we tend to be looking for Columbo pointers to guilt etc.

If you're more specific, I'll try to respond to what you're asking of me.

Its simple, how long would it take to remove the hair-ties, the pineapple evidence, or to run up the stairs for a pair of size-6 underwear? When contrasted with your horological equivalent?


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[BOESP]

The ransom note alone probably took one hour to dream up/write (we know there were likely earlier, discarded versions). Add to that JR and PR getting their story straight, which also probably took an hour (at least).

Let's say JB was killed at 12:30 and the "act" began in earnest at 5:30 (having to ramp up to it, as it were). That leaves 5 hours, 2 of which we've already accounted for.

Now add in the distress the Ramseys must have felt about JB's accidental death that they needed to stage. That's another hour. We're down to 2...

They did not have a lot of time to do this. They were hemmed in by their morning travel plans so they had to get things rolling by 5:30. It's very easy to believe they overlooked/didn't have time to think through any number of staging dilemmas...

That's how I see it too Sandover.

 

[sandover]

Sure stuff can be overlooked, but surely not some of the most important items, as sleuthers we tend to be looking for Columbo pointers to guilt etc.

Its simple, how long would it take to remove the hair-ties, the pineapple evidence, or to run up the stairs for a pair of size-6 underwear? When contrasted with your horological equivalent?.

UK Guy, I think we just have differing opinions about how clearly they were thinking on this night. But I appreciate your challenging me because the only way we can refine our own theories is by being pushed and provoked by each other.

 

[EllaMae]

I'm not sure if I believe BDI, but I definitely think he knows something. It is weird that JR and PR shipped Burke off to a friends house so quickly after everything happened, wouldn't you want your other child right next to you? If only Burke would talk, what he might tell...

Why on earth would you want to expose a young boy to all the hysteria that was going on at home at that time? Sending him to a trusted friend's house to be cared for, away from all the trauma, was in his best interests. It makes perfect sense, because his parents were unable to to care for him at that point, and he did not need to see or hear any more than he already had. As a parent, I think it was a very good decision, and there was nothing sinister or devious about it. It was done to protect him because he was a CHILD.

I think it's wrong to keep dragging Burke into his sister's murder. He has surely suffered enough. He was a child, and he had nothing to do with what happened to JB. Enough already. Let him have some peace, and a chance at a normal life. He never asked for any of this.

 

[UKGuy]

UK Guy, I think we just have differing opinions about how clearly they were thinking on this night. But I appreciate your challenging me because the only way we can refine our own theories is by being pushed and provoked by each other.

sandover,
ITA, this is how I have come to a better understanding of might have taken place the night JonBenet was killed.

Please do not take anything I say personally, its only meant to stimulate debate in the manner you suggest.



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[UKGuy]

Why on earth would you want to expose a young boy to all the hysteria that was going on at home at that time? Sending him to a trusted friend's house to be cared for, away from all the trauma, was in his best interests. It makes perfect sense, because his parents were unable to to care for him at that point, and he did not need to see or hear any more than he already had. As a parent, I think it was a very good decision, and there was nothing sinister or devious about it. It was done to protect him because he was a CHILD.

I think it's wrong to keep dragging Burke into his sister's murder. He has surely suffered enough. He was a child, and he had nothing to do with what happened to JB. Enough already. Let him have some peace, and a chance at a normal life. He never asked for any of this.

EllaMae,

he did not need to see or hear any more than he already had.

JonBenet was gone, she had been kidnapped, so what more is there for Burke to see?

I think it's wrong to keep dragging Burke into his sister's murder.

He was there in the house, he said he saw JonBenet walking into the house, this contradicts his parents version, his fingerprints are on a glass in the breakfast bar where JonBenet snacked pineapple. So please spare me the
child advocacy, Burke Ramsey is a suspect in the death of JonBenet Ramsey whether you like it or not!



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[Nova]

Why on earth would you want to expose a young boy to all the hysteria that was going on at home at that time? Sending him to a trusted friend's house to be cared for, away from all the trauma, was in his best interests. It makes perfect sense, because his parents were unable to to care for him at that point, and he did not need to see or hear any more than he already had. As a parent, I think it was a very good decision, and there was nothing sinister or devious about it. It was done to protect him because he was a CHILD.

I think it's wrong to keep dragging Burke into his sister's murder. He has surely suffered enough. He was a child, and he had nothing to do with what happened to JB. Enough already. Let him have some peace, and a chance at a normal life. He never asked for any of this.

But JR and PR supposedly believed there was a "small foreign faction" roaming the streets of Boulder, kidnapping and threatening to behead children. Hysteria or no, there's no way one of my children would have been sent anywhere out of my sight under those conditions.

On the other hand, if JR and PR knew there were no kidnappers and had covered up the murder themselves, then I can't believe they sent Burke off with a beat cop and a family friend while Burke knew anything important about the murder or cover-up.

To me, sending Burke away that morning is one of the most telling moments in the timeline: it implicates the Rs and exonerates BR.

 

[DeeDee249]

Why on earth would you want to expose a young boy to all the hysteria that was going on at home at that time? Sending him to a trusted friend's house to be cared for, away from all the trauma, was in his best interests. It makes perfect sense, because his parents were unable to to care for him at that point, and he did not need to see or hear any more than he already had. As a parent, I think it was a very good decision, and there was nothing sinister or devious about it. It was done to protect him because he was a CHILD.

I think it's wrong to keep dragging Burke into his sister's murder. He has surely suffered enough. He was a child, and he had nothing to do with what happened to JB. Enough already. Let him have some peace, and a chance at a normal life. He never asked for any of this.

Neither did his sister.

Unfortunately, like it or not, EVERY person who was in that house at the time of the crime is a suspect UNTIL another suspect is identified by NAME, and found to have been in Boulder that night. That isn't just my opinion or the opinion of posters on the forums. It is FACT, and every DA and police officer knows it. The irresponsible actions of one DA do not change that fact.

 

[UKGuy]

But JR and PR supposedly believed there was a "small foreign faction" roaming the streets of Boulder, kidnapping and threatening to behead children. Hysteria or no, there's no way one of my children would have been sent anywhere out of my sight under those conditions.

On the other hand, if JR and PR knew there were no kidnappers and had covered up the murder themselves, then I can't believe they sent Burke off with a beat cop and a family friend while Burke knew anything important about the murder or cover-up.

To me, sending Burke away that morning is one of the most telling moments in the timeline: it implicates the Rs and exonerates BR.

Nova,

To me, sending Burke away that morning is one of the most telling moments in the timeline: it implicates the Rs and exonerates BR.

I do agree with you, it is a telling moment, but why? Well because John is excercising autonomy, you can tell he does not feel bound by the ebb and flow of the police investigation.

There are two views on the relocation of Burke, one is what you outline, the other that Burke is seen as a toxic asset, someone who should be held at arms length from the investigators, or even the parents themselves who intended to flee interstate at the first opportunity, and Burke could be viewed as a liability whilst crossing borders?

John's thinking could be, we have BDI, JonBenet will be found shortly, so to avoid Burke being taken in for questioning we need to have him relocated away from any questions put by investigators. This is a zero sum game, so relocation is the best option, win or lose!


Relocating Burke is one of those moments alike the redressing of JonBenet in the size-12's or the neglect of the breakfast bar, they suggest to us what the R's may have been thinking?



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[Chrishope]

But JR and PR supposedly believed there was a "small foreign faction" roaming the streets of Boulder, kidnapping and threatening to behead children. Hysteria or no, there's no way one of my children would have been sent anywhere out of my sight under those conditions.

On the other hand, if JR and PR knew there were no kidnappers and had covered up the murder themselves, then I can't believe they sent Burke off with a beat cop and a family friend while Burke knew anything important about the murder or cover-up.

To me, sending Burke away that morning is one of the most telling moments in the timeline: it implicates the Rs and exonerates BR.

I think it's an inside job, but I don't think sending Burke to the Whites implicates the Rs. He was close by, being watched by good friends. He was in no danger -even if there really was an intruder.

IMO it's more likely he was sent to the Whites because the Rs expected to be arrested.

As far as BR knowing something - I doubt it. He might have said something to the Whites, or the police could have questioned him at the Whites. It would be risky to let him go to the Whites if he knew something.