Was Burke involved?

[otg]

BTW, I don’t recall where I read this, or who questioned a poster’s statement about JonBenet acting “flirty”, but I ran across something today reading a link from koldkase over at FFJ (I miss having her here, and I hope she knows how much we need her here, and maybe she’ll reconsider her abrupt departure.). On Page-3 of this article linked by koldkase, it says the following:

Even Patsy expressed occasional doubts about the effect of the circuit on her daughter: "She is too friendly, just too friendly with people," she told Michael and Pam (Archuleta). “She flirts with people.”

 

[dodie20]

Not sure, but I don’t think they had any relatives in town at the time.


Oh, but the PDI theory is very much popular. And why not? It’s just so easy to not like her and see things she did as suspicious.


I think JR was indeed involved from the moment her death was discovered. But then, I don’t believe either one of the parents would do something to “finish her off” or end her life if they found her injured but still alive.

The note was rewritten at least one time. Could be JR rejected the first and told her to do it over again with a little input into it by him. I don’t know what other parts of the staging he might have been busy doing at the time (there’s so much we can speculate about there), but he couldn’t do everything if they were indeed in on the staging together. Why not let Patsy write it? After all, she had a college degree in Journalism. He, OTOH, was the "executive" -- comfortable with letting others do the menial tasks like letter writing. Maybe after she finished writing it, and after JR had finished whatever he was doing, they were running out of time before they had to report her missing as part of the ruse that it was just a normal morning until they discovered her missing. Could be he thought it was close enough to his idea of a RN that they would go with it due to the time constraints.

One thing that does bother me though in trying to figure out behaviors that morning is JR’s reported “changed” behavior after he had disappeared for some length of time while the call from the SFF was still expected. But then, it is only Arndt’s recounting of the event later that tells us he appeared “ashen-faced” and “agitated” (IIRC) afterwards. And her account is made in retrospect after all else had occurred. Could it be that her recollection is a little influenced by her later conclusions?

But the one thing that tells me more than anything that all three R’s were involved and knew what was going on is the 911-call. I’ve heard for myself the voice of a small child on the recording saying the first three words of what has been reported that BPD heard on the enhanced recording. I’ve heard and seen the sound graph where the recording was intentionally erased or recorded over with ambient sound in and attempt to remove the evidence of this conversation. All three remaining R’s were awake at the time, they were colluding in the farce which was their story, and they were each playing their part in the play for the benefit of anyone who was there to witness it play out. So, for me, it comes down to answering why they would all three agree to play a part in covering up the death of JonBenet.

Speaking for myself here, but I don't suspect PR because she's so easy to not like. It's the exact opposite for me...I like a lot of things about her and don't care for JR much at all. But I still suspect her more than him. moo

 

[UKGuy]

Not sure, but I don’t think they had any relatives in town at the time.


Oh, but the PDI theory is very much popular. And why not? It’s just so easy to not like her and see things she did as suspicious.


I think JR was indeed involved from the moment her death was discovered. But then, I don’t believe either one of the parents would do something to “finish her off” or end her life if they found her injured but still alive.

The note was rewritten at least one time. Could be JR rejected the first and told her to do it over again with a little input into it by him. I don’t know what other parts of the staging he might have been busy doing at the time (there’s so much we can speculate about there), but he couldn’t do everything if they were indeed in on the staging together. Why not let Patsy write it? After all, she had a college degree in Journalism. He, OTOH, was the "executive" -- comfortable with letting others do the menial tasks like letter writing. Maybe after she finished writing it, and after JR had finished whatever he was doing, they were running out of time before they had to report her missing as part of the ruse that it was just a normal morning until they discovered her missing. Could be he thought it was close enough to his idea of a RN that they would go with it due to the time constraints.

One thing that does bother me though in trying to figure out behaviors that morning is JR’s reported “changed” behavior after he had disappeared for some length of time while the call from the SFF was still expected. But then, it is only Arndt’s recounting of the event later that tells us he appeared “ashen-faced” and “agitated” (IIRC) afterwards. And her account is made in retrospect after all else had occurred. Could it be that her recollection is a little influenced by her later conclusions?

But the one thing that tells me more than anything that all three R’s were involved and knew what was going on is the 911-call. I’ve heard for myself the voice of a small child on the recording saying the first three words of what has been reported that BPD heard on the enhanced recording. I’ve heard and seen the sound graph where the recording was intentionally erased or recorded over with ambient sound in and attempt to remove the evidence of this conversation. All three remaining R’s were awake at the time, they were colluding in the farce which was their story, and they were each playing their part in the play for the benefit of anyone who was there to witness it play out. So, for me, it comes down to answering why they would all three agree to play a part in covering up the death of JonBenet.

otg,
Without the acute assault I would favor PDI. That leaves JDI or BDI, and BDI seems to hang together better than JDI. Consider JR's behavior that morning, if it was JDI he had all night to cobble some crime-scene together, and eventually what arrived was simply JonBenet plus artifacts being dumped into the wine-cellar, hardly rocket science.

The R's must have been aware of the chronic abuse otherwise a staged bedtime sexual assault by some intruder would have done fine.

All three R's were involved in the death and subsequent staging of the wine-cellar crime-scene, so they had to agree to play their allotted roles.

.

 

[BOESP]

I think Burke wAs somehow complicit in something. Children are very easily convinced to keep their mouths shut. sending him away was safer for them then having him around that morning.
Burke admitted to having secrets he refused to share.
Which IMO is very odd for a child that young to be so steadfast and guarded about secrets. IMO



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BBM. That is a nagging thought in my mind too.

B&IBM. I don't have enough information to speculate on what those secrets could be but I see two or three things that are good candidates for secrecy.

I see Burke as a very intelligent young man. Purdue is a top-ranked university and produces some of the best engineers in America. He didn't get into Purdue and graduate in four years without having a good brain. I hope his integrity is equal to his intelligence.

 

[UKGuy]

BTW, I don’t recall where I read this, or who questioned a poster’s statement about JonBenet acting “flirty”, but I ran across something today reading a link from koldkase over at FFJ (I miss having her here, and I hope she knows how much we need her here, and maybe she’ll reconsider her abrupt departure.). On Page-3 of this article linked by koldkase, it says the following:

otg,
Also Patsy's friends said that they had intended to discuss JonBenet's behavior with her, soon after Christmas, i.e. the Mega-JonBenet thing.

They obviously thought that the pageant circuit had influenced JonBenet, and this was impacting on their family life in some negative manner?

.

 

[Linda7NJ]

otg,
Without the acute assault I would favor PDI. That leaves JDI or BDI, and BDI seems to hang together better than JDI. Consider JR's behavior that morning, if it was JDI he had all night to cobble some crime-scene together, and eventually what arrived was simply JonBenet plus artifacts being dumped into the wine-cellar, hardly rocket science.

The R's must have been aware of the chronic abuse otherwise a staged bedtime sexual assault by some intruder would have done fine.

All three R's were involved in the death and subsequent staging of the wine-cellar crime-scene, so they had to agree to play their allotted roles.

.

My gut tells me John was very late in the game. I think he was suspicious when reading that note and wasn't buying his daughter was kidnapped by a SFF. His mind was racing,..

He may have added to or taken away things that morning right before or after Patsy called 911. Burkes voice is most troubling to me....

But then again, women molest children, children molest children as do fathers.
I also know of more than a few cases where fathers groom their sons to molest their female siblings...the groomed son becomes the scape goat if abuse is discovered, the son usually refuses to give up the dad.

I don't know anything for sure except Patsy wrote that note and one or more Ramsey's did it. IMO


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[SongBird]

[/URL][/IMG]

http://newsle.com/person/burkeramsey/16008856


what do u think of this photo of burke?

 

[Linda7NJ]

[/URL][/IMG]

http://newsle.com/person/burkeramsey/16008856


what do u think of this photo of burke?

Wow....he chose that?


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[DeeDee249]

The one and only reason I don't believe Burke was involved is that they let him leave the house that morning. They could not have known for sure that he would not say something.

I know most people I have ever spoken to about the case think it was Burke. But they usually base that on the theory that it is the only thing that explains whey the parents would work together to cover it up and then stay married, because how would you ever be able to remain married to the person that killed your child?

While I also believed this early on and can absolutely see the logic, I have since researched this case alot more and knowing all I have learned about what John and Patsy were really like I can now believe they stayed together even with the knowledge they had to have had.

I just don't think they would have let him out of their sight that morning had he known anything. No matter how much you caution a nine year old how could you be sure he wouldn't let something slip?

I think it was the only choice they could make that morning. LE were at the house, the FBI was there early on. They absolutely did NOT want him questioned that morning. Now think about that for a minute....his sister is allegedly abducted from her room right down the hall from his. Wouldn't you think they would WANT LE to know whether he had seen or heard anything?
Also- eventually they knew JB would be found and brought upstairs and I can see why they would not want BR to be there for this- and not wanted to risk him seeing her.
It would have been impossible to explain to LE that morning why they did not want LE to talk to their son. Even they knew how bad (and incriminating) that would look.
Sure, there was a possibility he might say something to FW, but it was a risk they had to take.

 

[gramcracker]

But then, I don’t believe either one of the parents would do something to “finish her off” or end her life if they found her injured but still alive.

unless BR (or PR) was responsible for her being in that state, and what caused it was brutal or done out of rage, and JB (if she recovered) could/would tell how it happened (even tho BR was underage for prosecution, word still gets around: no more perfect family)

the bleeding inside the skull occurred while she was alive. her scalp was intact so there was nothing on the outside to indicate how serious the injury was. there were estimates re how long she bled, how much time elapsed between the head bash and the strangling. (two that I remember are 20-60 minutes and 45 minutes-2 hours). I wonder if much of that time was spent trying to revive her. maybe they feared brain damage because she wasn't reviving. they could have placed her at the bottom of the stairs, called 911, and said she tripped and fell. I think the danger was two-fold: if she recovered she would say who injured her, and even if she didn't recover there was evidence of molestation (that night and in the past)

 

[questfortrue]

otg,
Also Patsy's friends said that they had intended to discuss JonBenet's behavior with her, soon after Christmas, i.e. the Mega-JonBenet thing.

They obviously thought that the pageant circuit had influenced JonBenet, and this was impacting on their family life in some negative manner?

.

Also, PW tried to tell PR something significant at the memorial. PR refused to listen.

 

[otg]

unless BR (or PR) was responsible for her being in that state, and what caused it was brutal or done out of rage, and JB (if she recovered) could/would tell how it happened (even tho BR was underage for prosecution, word still gets around: no more perfect family)

the bleeding inside the skull occurred while she was alive. her scalp was intact so there was nothing on the outside to indicate how serious the injury was. there were estimates re how long she bled, how much time elapsed between the head bash and the strangling. (two that I remember are 20-60 minutes and 45 minutes-2 hours). I wonder if much of that time was spent trying to revive her. maybe they feared brain damage because she wasn't reviving. they could have placed her at the bottom of the stairs, called 911, and said she tripped and fell. I think the danger was two-fold: if she recovered she would say who injured her, and even if she didn't recover there was evidence of molestation (that night and in the past)

The many doctors who've commented on the head wound versus strangulation have come to so many different conclusions, I don't feel any one of them can be trusted as completely reliable. They can't even agree on the order of injuries, much less the length of time between them. I think they each place more or less of an emphasis on one particular aspect of the influencing factors in trying to come to a determination. If you care to read about some of those factors, I wrote about it [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9570391#post9570391"]here[/ame].

Personally, I believe that by the time Patsy and John became aware of the situation, JonBenet was already dead from the combination of the head trauma and strangulation. But that's JMO.

 

[BOESP]

<snip>

Personally, I believe that by the time Patsy and John became aware of the situation, JonBenet was already dead from the combination of the head trauma and strangulation. But that's JMO.

otg, do you think one person or more than one person participated in the acts that killed JonBenet? I promise not to ask for names.

 

[blefuscu]

Something that occurred to me, while I was on the bus home from university today.

If Burke had hit JonBenet on the head rendering her unconscious why would PR and JR not just take her to the hospital? They can't see she's got a scull fracture and a bleed to her brain, but it would be normal parental practice to get your injured child to hospital. Why then wait for a long while to do anything at all? The evidence shows she was alive quite a while after the head injury through the amount of blood, and obviously she was alive whilst being sexually assaulted as she bled again.

If Burke had "hurt" JonBenet sexually, and she struggled and he hit her leaving her unconscious then he's going to run and get his parents. I can't believe any 9 year old wouldn't panic immediately and not go and get mom or dad. And why would he sit there for a considerable period of time, then think to make a garrotte and strangle her?

So then why no move to the hospital? Even if they thought, we need to clean up her up down below, they could have done that and then called 911.

If she hadn't been sexually assaulted by Burke but merely hit on the head leaving her unconscious, why would a parent then sexually assault her and then strangle her? Burke doing it makes no sense.

Just because he may have been heard on the 911 call doesn't automatically make him involved.

 

[questfortrue]

Snipped . . .

I think JR was indeed involved from the moment her death was discovered. But then, I don’t believe either one of the parents would do something to “finish her off” or end her life if they found her injured but still alive.
.

OTG,
BBM, Are you referring to when JR "found" her body at 1:05 pm the next day? Or sometime sooner?

IIRC, Mortal Evidence by Cyril Wecht includes a long chapter on the forensics and other evidence of the JB case. Wecht still, after 7 years (2003) sticks by his guns that she was strangled first - not a vicious strangling, but one which pressed upon the vagus nerve. For those uninformed like me, Wecht said that if the signals from the vagus nerve are interrupted, cardiac and respiratory reponses could slow down, become irregular, and eventually cease - a proceses known as "electrical death." ("Special cells in the heart transmit neurological mesage very quickly. . . and if something interrupts those mesages, a chain of events begins that can lead to death.") He goes on to say her unconsciousness would be inexplicable to her molester. wecht's theory was that the head blow was to create a brutal reason for her death.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Something that occurred to me, while I was on the bus home from university today.

If Burke had hit JonBenet on the head rendering her unconscious why would PR and JR not just take her to the hospital? They can't see she's got a scull fracture and a bleed to her brain, but it would be normal parental practice to get your injured child to hospital. Why then wait for a long while to do anything at all? The evidence shows she was alive quite a while after the head injury through the amount of blood, and obviously she was alive whilst being sexually assaulted as she bled again.

If Burke had "hurt" JonBenet sexually, and she struggled and he hit her leaving her unconscious then he's going to run and get his parents. I can't believe any 9 year old wouldn't panic immediately and not go and get mom or dad. And why would he sit there for a considerable period of time, then think to make a garrotte and strangle her?

So then why no move to the hospital? Even if they thought, we need to clean up her up down below, they could have done that and then called 911.

If she hadn't been sexually assaulted by Burke but merely hit on the head leaving her unconscious, why would a parent then sexually assault her and then strangle her? Burke doing it makes no sense.

Just because he may have been heard on the 911 call doesn't automatically make him involved.

Exactly my thought processes.

No sane parent would stage the death of one child to cover for another...the thought is just ridiculous.

Furthermore, if they did decide to stage, the first part of that staging would be to prep the murderous child.

It is clear, to me at least, that Burke had NOT been prepped at the point of the 911 call.

All the staging had been done, Burke was not aware of any of it.

To make the staging successful, Burke would need to be attended to FIRST, not as an afterthought.

Burke not being already told to go back to bed and pretend to be asleep = Burke was forgotten about, ie, not part of the crime OR the cover up.

:cow:

 

[dodie20]

The many doctors who've commented on the head wound versus strangulation have come to so many different conclusions, I don't feel any one of them can be trusted as completely reliable. They can't even agree on the order of injuries, much less the length of time between them. I think they each place more or less of an emphasis on one particular aspect of the influencing factors in trying to come to a determination. If you care to read about some of those factors, I wrote about it here.

Personally, I believe that by the time Patsy and John became aware of the situation, JonBenet was already dead from the combination of the head trauma and strangulation. But that's JMO.

The BR theory is a good one and it makes some sense, but I'm still not buying it. Not unless he did everything except write the note and the undoing. But if he did it all, how did PR's fibers get all over everything? It sounds good, because he was just a kid and the only thing his parents would be guilty of is trying to protect him, but IMO, there's not much evidence to support this theory. That's not saying there isn't evidence pointing to BR that we don't know about. But if there is, would LE have gone after the Rs like they did? Would they have wasted the time and money going after Karr? moo

 

[blefuscu]

Exactly my thought processes.

No sane parent would stage the death of one child to cover for another...the thought is just ridiculous.

Furthermore, if they did decide to stage, the first part of that staging would be to prep the murderous child.

It is clear, to me at least, that Burke had NOT been prepped at the point of the 911 call.

All the staging had been done, Burke was not aware of any of it.

To make the staging successful, Burke would need to be attended to FIRST, not as an afterthought.

Burke not being already told to go back to bed and pretend to be asleep = Burke was forgotten about, ie, not part of the crime OR the cover up.

:cow:

The very least the Ramsey parents would do after going to such lengths to cover for him would be to make sure he wasn't in the room for the 911 call. They are trying to cover his tracks and I wouldn't be convinced that a 9 year old child could stay perfectly silent during the call, especially when mom is so distressed.

So, if that is Burke's voice on the end of the 911 call, and there is no reason to think it's not, it then shoots apart the staging.

To me, either staging a crime scene, or killing your child, to cover for another child makes no sense. If JonBenet was merely unconscious when John and/patsy were made aware by Burke then why kill her? They wouldn't know the extent of the head wound.

 

[gramcracker]

I think the ligature was meant to make the head injury of lesser importance, to point to an intruder, to ensure that the victim never spoke of the incident, and possibly as a mercy killing. given all the odd and contradictory circumstances, a head injury alone would cause an investigation into a suspected domestic incident: an unattended fall, or something done by an angry parent/sibling. nothing says SFF like a “professional, intricate, and specialized” ligature. a fatal/near-fatal head injury would be of no consequence to a kidnapper other than "oops, there goes the ransom money" whereas to the guilty parties it was something that required further action. of course, that is based on my belief that the head bash came first

 

[UKGuy]

My gut tells me John was very late in the game. I think he was suspicious when reading that note and wasn't buying his daughter was kidnapped by a SFF. His mind was racing,..

He may have added to or taken away things that morning right before or after Patsy called 911. Burkes voice is most troubling to me....

But then again, women molest children, children molest children as do fathers.
I also know of more than a few cases where fathers groom their sons to molest their female siblings...the groomed son becomes the scape goat if abuse is discovered, the son usually refuses to give up the dad.

I don't know anything for sure except Patsy wrote that note and one or more Ramsey's did it. IMO


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Linda7NJ,
This is possible. Patsy on a preliminary view appears to contribute the most to the wine-cellar staging, including the ransom note.

JR does not seem to have much to do, if anything? Yet there he is with BR on the 911 call?

Its as if JR was involved but deliberately minimized his forensic profile, which included a shower the next morning.

To explain the obvious it might be that Patsy, given her medical condition, decided to take a hit for another R. Wearing the same clothes as the night before, not showering, along with related fibers distributed all over the crime-scene artifacts screams I Did It?

.