Was Burke involved?

[questfortrue]

Frigga's correct on how the law in Colorado applies to children under 10.
FYI:
Colorado Statute 18-1-801.
Insufficient age
The responsibility of a person for his conduct is the same for persons between the ages of ten and eighteen as it is for persons over eighteen except to the extent that responsibility is modified by the provisions of the "Colorado Children's Code", title 19, C.R.S. No child under ten years of age shall be found guilty of any offense.

Perhaps a court could have ordered treatment. But a child under 10 would not be charged with an offense. This isn’t a matter of opinion to be agreed upon or not. A good place to review Colorado laws is http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/ Perhaps people already know about this website, but here is the link for people wanting clear definition as to Colorado statutes.

 

[Venom]

Does anyone know where this open door is stated as fact?

ETA: I went looking for a source, can't seem to find a clear source. But did find this:
"at least seven windows and one door were found "open" on the morning of December 26, 1997. (SMF P 126; PSMF P 126.)" (Carnes 2003:86) "The term "open" was not defined. It is, therefore, not clear if the entrances were ajar or unlocked." (Carnes 2003:Note 31).

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

It be great if there was a source attached to "there was a door unlocked, and it's in the evidence."

B/c if true, it defies logic that it never came to light by either JR himself, Lou Smit, L. Wood, their investigators, their lawyers, friends that were there that morning, CSI techs, or any other potential LE people who either viewed it with their own eyes, or saw it written in the tens of thousands documents that are on file in this case.

Instead, we've had nearly 20 years of accounts by JR and all those who have fought on his behalf pointing to a broken window.

"But what about the fact that there were no signs of forced entry? It turns out that there would have been no need, because that night, there was one door unlocked, at least six windows were open and the house's alarm wasn't even on.
"

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-killed-jonbenet/

"1 Q. You took notes, didn't you?
2 A. I may have.
3 Q. You paid careful attention to what
4 was being said, didn't you?
5 A. I believe so.
6 Q. Have you ever heard that there
7 were seven windows and doors found unlocked
8 in the Ramsey home on the morning of December
9 26, 1996?
10 A. I don't know who the source of
11 that is right now but I --
12 Q. I didn't ask you the source. I
13 asked you have you ever heard it, sir?
14 A. Yeah."

http://www.acandyrose.com/09212001Depo-SteveThomas.htm

 

[Carmelita]

It be great if there was a source attached to "there was a door unlocked, and it's in the evidence."

B/c if true, it defies logic that it never came to light by either JR himself, Lou Smit, L. Wood, their investigators, their lawyers, friends that were there that morning, CSI techs, or any other potential LE people who either viewed it with their own eyes, or saw it written in the tens of thousands documents that are on file in this case.

Instead, we've had nearly 20 years of accounts by JR and all those who have fought on his behalf pointing to a broken window.

Hi I am very new to reading or knowing anything about this case. I have read loads of articles, reports, depositions, first, second and third habd accounts and it is not my impression that the Ramsey defense has hung it's hat on the broken window.

I understand your skeptism about an unlocked door, I will try to find the source (police record or a deposition, I really can't remeber) but it wont be tonight as I am about to be off.

 

[Carmelita]

Just so we are clear Carmelita- I am not a "Ramsey did it enthusiast", I am an average citizen, with an average intellect. I came upon this case, in terms of really reading about it very late after the events transpired and a beautiful, sweet child was murdered.

Some people, myself being one, have a desire to read, research, and determine a conclusion, and yes sometimes based in part on the intuition you so callously, and rudely disregard in your post to babybetty.

My intuition has served me well in my lifetime. It is not all I base my opinions on, but you can damn well believe that I pay attention to it when it is telling me something.

I am no genius, I am not a great debater, I would never be able to go against you- toe to toe because I am not an intellectual like you, but I have an opinion that matters.

Many people seated on juries are just like me.

I can choose myself to believe what someone is telling me, or disbelieve it just the same. Just because they are saying it doesn't make it true. When people change their stories in a short amount of time my ears perk up and my hinky meter goes off. I know that when someone lies about one thing, or many I can make the decision to disregard some of the other things they are saying too. I can tell you, in no uncertain terms that I know when I am being manipulated without a shred of evidence to back that up. I know that a team of well paid lawyers, who are in the top of their field can change the odds and the stakes for their clients, irregardless of guilt or innocence.

I know what parents do when they have nothing to hide and want a perpetrator caught- I can at least tell you that much and no amount of "facts" in which you may deem important will change what I see and hear with my own eyes and ears.



I appreciate and read everyones opinions, weather I agree with them or not.

I don't have to be a genius to come to the conclusion that I have come to- and I don't have to be able to have all the facts committed to memory to be able to say what my mind, heart and head tell me, and that doesn't make me a "Ramsey Did it Enthusiast" just because you say so.

hi Frigga,

First my deep apologies I did not mean to come across as callous. I am by nature very analytical to the point of hurting feelings sometimes because I speak very matter of fact. And I don't for a minute doubt that you have good reason intellectual and intuitive reasons for your beliefs. You are very well spoken.


From my readings of all things Ramsey I do not see the psychological make-up that would be required for any of them to have been involved in the brutal murder and deviant sexual assault of their beloved child. Believe me as passionately as you believe that the evidence is on the side of the Ramsey’s guilt I believe it is on the side of their innocence.

 

[Carmelita]

Thanks Scarlet

 

[bettybaby00]

Does anyone know where this open door is stated as fact?

ETA: I went looking for a source, can't seem to find a clear source. But did find this:
"at least seven windows and one door were found "open" on the morning of December 26, 1997. (SMF P 126; PSMF P 126.)" (Carnes 2003:86) "The term "open" was not defined. It is, therefore, not clear if the entrances were ajar or unlocked." (Carnes 2003:Note 31).

What does SMF & PSMF stand for????

Are they referring to Judge Carnes???

 

[Mama2JML]

What does SMF & PSMF stand for????

Are they referring to Judge Carnes???

Excerpts from Ruling in Wolf v. Ramsey (03.31.03):

"The Court draws the undisputed facts from Defendants' Statement of Undisputed Material Facts (SMF) and Plaintiffs Response to Defendants' Statement of Material Facts (PSMF), in which plaintiff does not dispute the overwhelming majority of defendants' factual allegations. When plaintiff has disputed a specific fact and pointed to evidence in the record that supports its version of events, the Court has viewed all evidence and factual inferences in the light most favorable to plaintiff, as required on a defendant's motion for summary judgment.
...
In addition, the Court has reviewed plaintiffs separate statements of disputed material facts (PSDMF).
...
When the Court could discern a material factual dispute from this pleading, the Court has drawn all inferences in a light most favorable to plaintiff. Accordingly, the following facts are either not disputed or are viewed in the light most favorable to plaintiff."

 

[gramcracker]

SMF = Statement of Material Fact
PSMF = Plaintiff's Statement of Material Fact

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA
ATLANTA DIVISION

ROBERT CHRISTIAN WOLF,
Plaintiff,

v.

JOHN BENNET RAMSEY and
PATRICIA PAUGH RAMSEY,
Defendants.

CIVIL ACTION NO 1:00-CV-1187-JEC


http://www.acandyrose.com/03312003carnes01-10.htm

 

[bettybaby00]

Hi I am very new to reading or knowing anything about this case. I have read loads of articles, reports, depositions, first, second and third habd accounts and it is not my impression that the Ramsey defense has hung it's hat on the broken window.

I understand your skeptism about an unlocked door, I will try to find the source (police record or a deposition, I really can't remeber) but it wont be tonight as I am about to be off.

BBM:

I base my belief that they've "hung their hat" on the window b/c of JRs statements, the way in which they evolved, as well as the very public statements by LS over the years. Statements that no one from the Ramsey camp ever questioned or attempted to steer in another direction. I would assume that the book he was co-authoring also included his long held theory surrounding the basement window, and stun gun aspects of the crime.

Its inconceivable to me that somehow windows and a door were reported as unlocked/open on that morning and that info never made it to the public domain. if one of the many LE personnel who searched the house for a point of entry, and found unlocked entry points into the house, how could that not have been passed along to JR. Smit, certainly would have been fully aware of the reports filed from that day???

I just doesn't make sense to me???

 

[Anti-K]

BBM

BBM:

I base my belief that they've "hung their hat" on the window b/c of JRs statements, the way in which they evolved, as well as the very public statements by LS over the years. Statements that no one from the Ramsey camp ever questioned or attempted to steer in another direction. I would assume that the book he was co-authoring also included his long held theory surrounding the basement window, and stun gun aspects of the crime.

Its inconceivable to me that somehow windows and a door were reported as unlocked/open on that morning and that info never made it to the public domain. if one of the many LE personnel who searched the house for a point of entry, and found unlocked entry points into the house, how could that not have been passed along to JR. Smit, certainly would have been fully aware of the reports filed from that day???

I just doesn't make sense to me???

Copyright 1998 Newsweek
Newsweek
July 13, 1998, U.S. Edition
SECTION: NATIONAL AFFAIRS; Crime; Pg. 32
LENGTH: 1619 words
HEADLINE: The Door the Cops Never Opened
BYLINE: BY DANIEL GLICK, SHERRY KEENE-OSBORN AND ANDREW MURR

<snip>
Another seemingly incriminating and widely published piece of evidence was also misleading. Police found no signs of forced entry, which led to speculation that no outsider could have gotten in. In fact, law-enforcement officials told NEWSWEEK that the police knew several windows and a door had been unlocked that night. Two windows were open slightly, allowing electrical cords for the outside Christmas lights to pass through. And a basement window was also broken. Ramsey himself had smashed the glass and gone through it one day when he'd forgotten his house keys.
<snip>

BBM
...

AK

 

[questfortrue]

BBM:

I base my belief that they've "hung their hat" on the window b/c of JRs statements, the way in which they evolved, as well as the very public statements by LS over the years. Statements that no one from the Ramsey camp ever questioned or attempted to steer in another direction. I would assume that the book he was co-authoring also included his long held theory surrounding the basement window, and stun gun aspects of the crime.

Its inconceivable to me that somehow windows and a door were reported as unlocked/open on that morning and that info never made it to the public domain. if one of the many LE personnel who searched the house for a point of entry, and found unlocked entry points into the house, how could that not have been passed along to JR. Smit, certainly would have been fully aware of the reports filed from that day???

I just doesn't make sense to me???

First, it’s probably useless to attempt to establish facts on the doors or windows open or not, imo, there's too much rumor clouding this topic. However, here is some additional source information for people to make up their own mind.

1) In the depo with ST for the CW suit against the R’s, LW does not provide a source for information about the question he asks ST which is: Did you hear that there was an unlocked door and 6 windows open? Unfortunately, while ST wants to know LW’s source of info, LW only says it was someone in the BPD, no name attached.

2) Early on the scene was officer French who stated he, “did a quick inspection of the interior of the house and found all the doors locked, including the door leading from JonBenet’s bedroom to the second floor balcony. . . John told Officer French that he too had personally checked for unlocked doors and windows – John said he found the house locked up as it had been left the night before.” (Bonita papers)

3) Regards Dan Glick of Newsweek and his article, here’s Frank Coffman’s (a freelance reporter/photographer) take on Dan Glick: “The Ramseys have managed to find sympathetic media ears. Dan Glick at Newsweek became a virtual apologist for the couple, all the while claiming that he was "agnostic" about their guilt or innocence.” (Media people obviously with different ideas)

4) Lastly, from 48 hours: When several different people were interviewed and one of them was Greg McCrary, former profiler with the FBI, McCrary commented dispassionately, that he thought the report of open windows and doors was interesting, but it doesn't prove an intruder killed JonBenet. "What we have to do is go back to basics," says McCrary. "And that is we've got a child killed in the house. Staging the writing of the note. These are significant issues. We've got to assign weight in any crime scene. We'll never be able to thoroughly explain everything."

Just strolling on through with some additional info. So, take all this as you will. MHO

 

[Tawny]

Yeah... How did she get away with that?
She lost all credibility. She's clearly in the Ramsey's pocket...she's willing to go to extraordinary lengths ....why?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

First, it’s probably useless to attempt to establish facts on the doors or windows open or not, imo, there's too much rumor clouding this topic. However, here is some additional source information for people to make up their own mind.



1) In the depo with ST for the CW suit against the R’s, LW does not provide a source for information about the question he asks ST which is: Did you hear that there was an unlocked door and 6 windows open? Unfortunately, while ST wants to know LW’s source of info, LW only says it was someone in the BPD, no name attached.



2) Early on the scene was officer French who stated he, “did a quick inspection of the interior of the house and found all the doors locked, including the door leading from JonBenet’s bedroom to the second floor balcony. . . John told Officer French that he too had personally checked for unlocked doors and windows – John said he found the house locked up as it had been left the night before.” (Bonita papers)



3) Regards Dan Glick of Newsweek and his article, here’s Frank Coffman’s (a freelance reporter/photographer) take on Dan Glick: “The Ramseys have managed to find sympathetic media ears. Dan Glick at Newsweek became a virtual apologist for the couple, all the while claiming that he was "agnostic" about their guilt or innocence.” (Media people obviously with different ideas)



4) Lastly, from 48 hours: When several different people were interviewed and one of them was Greg McCrary, former profiler with the FBI, McCrary commented dispassionately, that he thought the report of open windows and doors was interesting, but it doesn't prove an intruder killed JonBenet. "What we have to do is go back to basics," says McCrary. "And that is we've got a child killed in the house. Staging the writing of the note. These are significant issues. We've got to assign weight in any crime scene. We'll never be able to thoroughly explain everything."



Just strolling on through with some additional info. So, take all this as you will. MHO

It's fact. It is not rumor. There was a door and windows left unsecured that day. It proves there was easy access to the house. It means that no one would have needed keys to get it making it easier for an intruder to get in with leaving any kind if evidence if how they got in or out. Which is a big pin in the balloon that says there is no proof of how an intruder got in.

Facts are facts. It's in news reports. It's in depositions.


Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own.

 

[Venom]

It's fact. It is not rumor. There was a door and windows left unsecured that day. It proves there was easy access to the house. It means that no one would have needed keys to get it making it easier for an intruder to get in with leaving any kind if evidence if how they got in or out. Which is a big pin in the balloon that says there is no proof of how an intruder got in.

Facts are facts. It's in news reports. It's in depositions.


Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own.

Where does it say that in a deposition? Was the door open, or just unlocked?

 

[Tawny]

It's fact. It is not rumor. There was a door and windows left unsecured that day. It proves there was easy access to the house. It means that no one would have needed keys to get it making it easier for an intruder to get in with leaving any kind if evidence if how they got in or out. Which is a big pin in the balloon that says there is no proof of how an intruder got in.

Facts are facts. It's in news reports. It's in depositions.


Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own.

Then that means the Ramseys are liars since JR insisted all doors and windows were locked that day/night.

Can't have it both ways. Either it's rumor and JR isn't lying, or it's fact and JR is lying, in which case, why?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Then that means the Ramseys are liars since JR insisted all doors and windows were locked that day/night.



Can't have it both ways. Either it's rumor and JR isn't lying, or it's fact and JR is lying, in which case, why?

It doesn't make them a liar. It could mean he was not aware. That he just assumed they were all locked.

Just because someone gets something wrong does not mean they are lying.

I don't understand this big push to call them liars.


Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Where does it say that in a deposition? Was the door open, or just unlocked?

The deposition is posted on a candy rise for you to read. I believe it says unlocked.


Forgive the autocorrect. Tapatalk has a mind of its own.

 

[Mama2JML]

From the 12.26.96 Search Warrant Affidavit:

According to Officers French and Veitch there were no obvious signs of forcible entry into their residence and the Ramseys believed that the house was locked when they went to bed.​

&​

An excerpt from John Ramsey's 04.30.97 BPD Interview:

TT: So you woke up a little bit before 5:30 a.m. in the morning?

JR: Uh huh.

TT: John, about what time do you think you fell asleep on Christmas night?

JR: Well I think it was 10:30 p.m. or 10:40 p.m. probably somewhere in that range.

TT: Okay. Again before you fell asleep, do you recall hearing any noises or sounds in the house?

JR: No.

TT: Normally, do you do a walk through to kind of make sure the doors are locked?

JR: No, I don&#8217;t normally. The normal doors that we used to go in and out of the house were the garage door, the door to the garage and the door out in the hallway, the back hallway, and I would usually look to see if that door is locked, because that was the typical one the kids went in and out of.

TT: The back one out by the study area?

JR: Right, TV room.

TT: (Inaudible)

JR: The TV room, out by the study area . . .

TT: Okay.

JR: . . .the back hallway. But uh, I might have looked at the door that night, checked it normally I don&#8217;t specifically recall it . . .

TT: You don&#8217;t recall whether it was open or closed or anything?

JR: No, not specifically.

TT: Normally, any other doors left unlocked?

JR: Uh, the only door that is normally left unlocked intentionally is the door in the garage.

TT: Okay, between the house and the garage, the (inaudible) and the garage.

JR: Right. ​

&​

An excerpt from Patsy Ramsey's 04.30.97 BPD Interview:

ST: Do you remember on the night of the 25th, when you and John came home, what the lockup procedure, the security procedure for the house that night was?

PR: No, I don&#8217;t.​

​

 

[Carmelita]

BBM:

I base my belief that they've "hung their hat" on the window b/c of JRs statements, the way in which they evolved, as well as the very public statements by LS over the years. Statements that no one from the Ramsey camp ever questioned or attempted to steer in another direction. I would assume that the book he was co-authoring also included his long held theory surrounding the basement window, and stun gun aspects of the crime.

Its inconceivable to me that somehow windows and a door were reported as unlocked/open on that morning and that info never made it to the public domain. if one of the many LE personnel who searched the house for a point of entry, and found unlocked entry points into the house, how could that not have been passed along to JR. Smit, certainly would have been fully aware of the reports filed from that day???

I just doesn't make sense to me???

I know Smit posited the broken window theory. But it is not the working theory of JR or Woods, from my read of things their belief is that someone was in the home for quite a while before the Ramsey family returned. (This is also John Douglas' belief). Both John, Patsy and Linda (the maid) said that there were many as in over a dozen keys to the home.

And there was at least one unlocked door and a few unlocked windows on the ground level. It was not immediately reveled and never made the headlines, but it is in the interrogation of Patsy or John Ramsey and in the link that Scarlet provided.

IMO this was a case built by inexperienced police, tabloid reporting and people (no one here in particular but the general public back then) being jealous of a wealthy, happy, beautiful, "perfect" family.

Just think of the nonsense of no footprints in the snow. Even deputy dawg could see the flaw in that logic.