Was Burke involved?

[SapphireSteel]

Based on what exactly? how? where? what's your theory based on what we think we know?


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I think PR and JR were both sick individuals, each in their own ways.

I think PR may have suffered Munchausen by proxy.

I think she attempted to sexualise JB to please John

The worst part - I think JB was intended to be Johns Christmas present. JB fought, disciline was applied, which went too far.

It's certainly the most logical scenario - it happens every day.

Its just not usually covered up quite so glamorously (and successfully!) though.

 

[dodie20]

Iirc it was printed in the Globe and the info was purposely leaked by Hunter through Wolf

If you can't read it let me know, I'll make it bigger.

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I'm curious about the interpretations of these drawings. When BR drew the pictures, I doubt he said 'this is a picture of JB with scared eyes', etc. Do we know what he said the drawings were, or were they just doodles? And who did he draw them for?

 

[Mama2JML]

Do you have a link for when she last bathed?

Iirc Patsy during a transcribed interview couldn't remember...a couples of days ago I believe was her reply...followed by another...I can't remember.


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Patsy Ramsey, 06.23.98:

"24 TRIP DeMUTH: How often would she
25 change her underwear? Was she good about

0239
1 changing them daily?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yes, yes.
3 Usually we bathed every day and --
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: -- changed her
6 underwear.
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Let me ask you if you
8 remember the last time you remember her bathing?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe -- I
10 believe the 24th, before we went to church. We
11 went to 4 o'clock service, so we got dressed up.
12 And I don't believe that we did on Christmas
13 Day, because that was too much for (INAUDIBLE).
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you recall her
15 another time, her washing her hands after that
16 time that you remember her bath on the 24th?
17 And we talked yesterday about a lot of times
18 that she could have. But specifically do you
19 have any remember --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I can't
21 specifically say when she would have washed her
22 hands.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: After she bathed
24 though on the 24th, she would have had clean
25 underwear on after that?

0240
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah.
2 I am sure she would have had clean
3 underwear on the 25th, though, she'd just not
4 have taken a bath.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: She would have
6 changed them Christmas morning?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Or Christmas
8 afternoon, getting dressed. Christmas morning,
9 you know (indicating a noise).
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay."​

 

[Tawny]

I think PR and JR were both sick individuals, each in their own ways.

I think PR may have suffered Munchausen by proxy.

I think she attempted to sexualise JB to please John

The worst part - I think JB was intended to be Johns Christmas present. JB fought, disciline was applied, which went too far.

It's certainly the most logical scenario - it happens every day.

Its just not usually covered up quite so glamorously (and successfully!) though.

Please clarify... are you saying that a mother offering up her child as a sexual Christmas present to her husband happens often enough to be considered a logical scenario?

 

[MyBelle]

I'm curious about the interpretations of these drawings. When BR drew the pictures, I doubt he said 'this is a picture of JB with scared eyes', etc. Do we know what he said the drawings were, or were they just doodles? And who did he draw them for?

Is there a way to enlarge that screen shot? I can't quite make it out.

 

[dodie20]

Is there a way to enlarge that screen shot? I can't quite make it out.

I tried zooming, but the lettering got a little too blurry. I want to know why and when he drew the pictures! because as unsettling as they seem, I'm not convinced the interpretation is accurate, you know? because whoever interpreted them, seemed to be looking for specific JB connections and unless BR said they were pictures of JB or his family, I think the interpretations may be stretched. That 1st one was chilling to look at though, but I'd like to know what BR said he drew. IMO, if the interpretations are correct, and that's a big IF, it looks like this 9 yr old saw some pretty horrible things. moo

 

[Linda7NJ]

I tried zooming, but the lettering got a little too blurry. I want to know why and when he drew the pictures! because as unsettling as they seem, I'm not convinced the interpretation is accurate, you know? because whoever interpreted them, seemed to be looking for specific JB connections and unless BR said they were pictures of JB or his family, I think the interpretations may be stretched. That 1st one was chilling to look at though, but I'd like to know what BR said he drew. IMO, if the interpretations are correct, and that's a big IF, it looks like this 9 yr old saw some pretty horrible things. moo

Does this help?




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[SapphireSteel]

Please clarify... are you saying that a mother offering up her child as a sexual Christmas present to her husband happens often enough to be considered a logical scenario?

Yes.

[modsnip]

There are hundreds no thousands of cases of father/daughter abuse in our society yet zero precedent for BDI [modsnip]

 

[SapphireSteel]

I tried zooming, but the lettering got a little too blurry. I want to know why and when he drew the pictures! because as unsettling as they seem, I'm not convinced the interpretation is accurate, you know? because whoever interpreted them, seemed to be looking for specific JB connections and unless BR said they were pictures of JB or his family, I think the interpretations may be stretched. That 1st one was chilling to look at though, but I'd like to know what BR said he drew. IMO, if the interpretations are correct, and that's a big IF, it looks like this 9 yr old saw some pretty horrible things. moo

Indeed.

IF they were drawn by B (they seem a bit too simple for a 9 year old) then the mind boggles as to what he witnessed in that house.

No wonder he appeared "strange" - this child was keeping some very nasty secrets imo.

 

[MyBelle]

Does this help?






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Ubetcha! TY

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Does this help?




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I'm sorry but I think the interpretations of these drawings are such a stretch. It looks like a kid doodling. Nothing more. IMO

 

[Tawny]

Yes.

You must live in an odd place, if 9 year olds raping murdering and staging their siblings is MORE common than father/daughter incest with the mother's cooperation/blessing/denial

There are hundreds no thousands of cases of father/daughter abuse in our society yet zero precedent for BDI so Im not sure why you find my theory so unbelievable?

Stop putting words in my mouth, please. I have NEVER said BR "raped, murdered, and staged" ANYTHING.

That said, it's actually more common for siblings of BR and JBR's ages to be curious about the other's bodies and to experiment. How far that goes depends on the children and their home life. We already know they both experienced emotional turmoil at a young age.

Do you have links to studies and cases in which a mother gift wrapped her daughter and offered her up as a sexual gift to her husband? Incest happens, and sometimes it happens with the mother's knowledge, but I'd be interested to see where you got the information regarding that being more common than sibling abuse. TIA

Clearly the links numerous members posted regarding child sibling sexual experimentation and abuse were completely ignored.

 

[dodie20]

My point was that Patsy would have no way of knowing that whatever was going on under the covers would leave a historical "trail" of damage to her daughter's vagina.

I know what you mean...because in the 90s, I had no idea they could tell the difference between different kinds of penetration and IMO, whoever committed the rape that night, probably thought it would cover prior molestation. I doubt they knew there was a comparative 'time stamp' on old injuries versus new injuries and IMO, the perp thought it would look like everything had been done that night.

 

[dodie20]

Does this help?




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thanks

 

[SapphireSteel]

Stop putting words in my mouth, please. I have NEVER said BR "raped, murdered, and staged" ANYTHING.

That said, it's actually more common for siblings of BR and JBR's ages to be curious about the other's bodies and to experiment. How far that goes depends on the children and their home life. We already know they both experienced emotional turmoil at a young age.

Do you have links to studies and cases in which a mother gift wrapped her daughter and offered her up as a sexual gift to her husband? Incest happens, and sometimes it happens with the mother's knowledge, but I'd be interested to see where you got the information regarding that being more common than sibling abuse. TIA

Clearly the links numerous members posted regarding child sibling sexual experimentation and abuse were completely ignored.

But we're not discussing "sibling abuse"!

We are discussing torture, rape, and murder!

I can name many small girls who were groomed by their mothers to be raped by their fathers.

Nowdays we also see mothers grooming their kids for other men, online and off.

It's a disgustingly common occurrence.

What is NOT common, in fact I believe is without precedent, is a 9 year old carrying off The Crime Of The Century, somehow enticing his own parents to cover for him and finish the job, then being able to resist and evade a battery of child psychs, forensic examinors, hard bitten detectives, judges, juries AND a good chunk of the gen public, for decades, all without skipping a beat in his education or apparent development into a well balanced member of society.

Do you have ANY examples of another such child?

Child murderers almost always tell someone. They are children, not sophisticated criminals.

 

[MyBelle]

I tried zooming, but the lettering got a little too blurry. I want to know why and when he drew the pictures! because as unsettling as they seem, I'm not convinced the interpretation is accurate, you know? because whoever interpreted them, seemed to be looking for specific JB connections and unless BR said they were pictures of JB or his family, I think the interpretations may be stretched. That 1st one was chilling to look at though, but I'd like to know what BR said he drew. IMO, if the interpretations are correct, and that's a big IF, it looks like this 9 yr old saw some pretty horrible things. moo

I think the interpretation is accurate but I don't agree with the conclusion that BR was disturbed therefore he was responsible for his sister's death. I think it is very possible he was struggling with gender identity and it was freaking out his parents and they leaped to the conclusion he was gay. I think he knew they blamed him for the death even though he was totally uninvolved.

If his little sister was "enabling" him by playing dress up with him or letting him wear her costumes, I can see it enraging Patsy to the point of loss of control. His image-fixated parents totally immersed him in church activities. That certainly could be an attempt to "pray away the gay." So could sending him to a therapist. Implicating him in his sister's death as the perp of a sexual assault gives the image he wasn't "gay."

BR is just as much a victim of his parents' twisted view of "normal" as his sister.

all, JMO.

https://www.genderspectrum.org/about/faq

A young child who feels cross-gendered may change their mind. The most common time for this to occur is about 9-10 years old. There is insufficient research to know if these children later identify as gender nonconforming or transgender adults. So, it is unclear if this change indicates sublimation or if it was just childhood phase.


Who caused this?
It is common for parents to blame themselves when a child falls outside of gender norms. They ask themselves, “Is it my fault somehow?” “Where did I go wrong?” Mothers may feel they were too permissive. Fathers may be angry and refuse to accept their gender nonconforming child, especially if this child was born a boy. Gender diversity is not an illness or a result of poor parenting.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Honestly how do we even know B drew those pictures?

 

[Tawny]

You would have to ask someone who believes Burke did EVERYTHING that happened to JBR. I am not one of those people. I'm done with this discussion.

 

[MyBelle]

Honestly how do we even know B drew those pictures?

It says they were made on a Sunday School notepad. Sunday School teachers aren't above selling things to the tabloids. The Ramseys themselves may have given it to the tabloid. I think they threw their son under the bus from the get go to take the heat off themselves. It worked.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I find BDI to be so bizarre that I do struggle to understand hence my querelous and skeptical postings.

I'm not aiming to annoy, rather gain insight to the rationale of BDI.

Every single scenario seems to argue against itself if broken down logically. To my mind anyway.

Having a BDI type person take offence and vanish in a puff of smoke instead of taking the opportunity to educate me, is the direct opposite of what this forum is about.

:truce: