Was Burke involved?

[Tawny]

Or, being her brother, he coerces her somehow. She trusts him, maybe? Since he's... her brother.

 

[Tawny]

It took me two minutes to type out a theory. How about you do the same?

Because like I said when you lay it out, you're going to see where it just doesn't match the evidence or stand up to scrutiny.

You aren't reading my posts, obviously. I already typed out my theory and it took me ten seconds.

 

[Tawny]

Alright, here is my long, drawn out theory.

The family comes home from the parties, JBR is awake. I believe BR over the parents on this one, sorry. PR is busy upstairs preparing for the trip, JR goes to bed. The kids have a snack in the dining room and then they either go up to the bedroom or down to the basement (flashlight in the dark?). It doesn't take force for a brother to get a sister to go somewhere, if he knows what will convince her to go (presents? a secret? a surprise?).

As has happened a few times already, BR proceeds to experiment with JBR and for the most part, she isn't struggling. He likely told her it's ok or whatever. I won't get into it too deeply, sibling sexual abuse is disturbing (although fairly common). At some point, she gets too loud (scream?) and maybe she fights back, so he hits her with the flashlight. Or maybe even it happens while they are doing something else, there is literally no way to know what precisely led to the bash.

BR, in a panic after JBR collapses, runs upstairs and tells mom what happened. She wakes JR and they go downstairs (or to the bedroom), see JBR in a heap on the floor (or bed) and tell BR everything will be ok, we'll take care of it, go to bed, and stay in your room no matter what. He's likely scared, thinking he is in deep trouble, and most kids in that situation will stay the heck put out of fear of more trouble.

The parents proceed to stage the scene. JR cleans her up, strangles her (not realizing she's still "alive"), etc., while PR writes that ridiculous note.

Maybe they planned to take her body somewhere. Maybe they decided they couldn't leave the house, maybe one of them refused to let the other go alone. Or maybe PR jumped the gun and called 911 before JR was ready.

Some things to note:
We don't know that any other Ramsey's DNA was NOT on JBR. We only know their DNA doesn't match the mixed sample of FOREIGN DNA on her waistband.
BR would NOT know about the staging and ransom note ("what did you find?") because he could have been sent upstairs and was not present for it. If it's his voice on the 911 call, maybe he heard Mom's frantic call and came downstairs or something.

I don't see why that is so completely implausible in the face of everything else.

ALL JMO. We all have THEORIES, nothing more. I'm pretty sure my theory is just as likely, possible, plausible as a plethora of other theories. If anyone knew for sure, we wouldn't be here discussing it. :facepalm:

 

[MyBelle]

It would serve a purpose of showing how you add up the reaction of the parents, the involvement of Burke and then how they came up with the cover up.

The reason people don't put it down step by step is that when you do it just doesn't make any sense.


I'll try


Burke is jealous of Jonbenet and resentful. She won awards over the holiday and she's been getting all sorts of attention. She's also annoying him. She's been doing things lately like touching his toys and he has a boiling rage and hatred towards her. They come back tired and cranky from the Christmas party and mom and dad are finishing up downstairs. They all eat a bit of pineapple and Jonbenet greedily snatches the last piece out of the bowl and gives a smug grin to Burke and enrages him further.

They go upstairs and he decides to get even when the parents go to sleep. No Christmas for Jonbenet according to Burke. He sneaks into her room when she's asleep and holds her at knife point with a knife from the kitchen. But she gets scared and pees the bed. This makes him mad so he tells her to change her clothes and goes to the drawer and pulls out the wrong size underwear. Then he takes her downstairs into the basement and .....

ok meanwhile no noise nothing waking up parents but hey, they are deep sleepers etc.....

so he's in the basement and he grabs the flashlight and bashes her over the head cause she starts whining. He's angry now. He fashions the garrote and strangles her and mutilates the body.

Now he's done. He goes upstairs to bed.


So mom and dad wake up as he's coming up the stairs. He's busted. They ask him what happened and what's going on. They sit down and realize he's killed her and there's no hope. They swear him to secrecy and send him to his room. Then they sit down and write the ransom note and John decides this, let's call everyone into the house.

John's motive for this is that he and Patsy have been sexually molesting the kids for years and he knows he's going to be looked at as a suspect. After all he's the one who sexualized Burke this way. They can't even let this be looked at as an inside job because John would take the fall.


The ransom note distracts the cops so they think she's been abducted. Cops don't search the house when there's a ransom note as we all know. We'll call everyone we know into the house to get them to contaminate the crime scene...............

and evil John's plan works perfectly how clever of him to know the police wouldn't properly contain the scene..........

He tells Patsy that she's got to make sure she and John both throw themselves on the body as soon as she's found (what a stroke of luck that he's the one to actually find her) and that they've got to make sure they ruin the investigation.

All goes according to plan.

It worked. Everyone knows that something is amiss but noone can prove it.

And this is a perfect crime except for two things.

Burke never broke his lie to the cops
His DNA was not all over Jonbenets body.


Oh.....right..............

so let's hear another version of how this went down please? Start to finish? I'm asking because I'm not seeing a scenario that makes any sense. If anyone has one I'd love to hear it.

The only scenario that makes sense to me is that PR caught JR in bed with her daughter and exploded in rage. I see the cover-up to hide JR's sexual abuse. I think Patsy called 911 before JR could remove the body from the home because it wouldn't fit in the suitcase and Patsy thought the ransom note would deflect the cops to outside rather than inside. John left for a couple of hours to find something to put the body into and to dispose of the duct tape. The guy was desperate to get the body out of town. Maybe he intended to dispose of her in the lake.


JMO

 

[Tawny]

To add to my theory:

I think PR's motivation for the cover up was the shame associated with the abuse BR had inflicted on JBR and the fact that he killed her (as she thought at the time). She didn't want to be the mother of a murderer/abuser.

JR's motivation was likely protection of a son? I have no idea, that man is an enigma to me.

 

[Chewy]

I said it pretty plainly a few posts back, IMO.

Accidental head injury, assumed she was dead (shallow breathing, undetected due to panic and/or assumption), sent BR to bed, staged cover up not realizing the asphyxiation is what caused her ultimate death.

JMO.

Is this it? That's not a step by step. That's a general theory. That's why I keep asking you to spell it out. Obviously some of the details aren't going to be perfect. But you're making a huge leap for "Head injury" to "stage cover up"

How does this make sense to you step by step? The reason IMO that people won't lay it out step by step is that when you do you get holes in time, reason, evidence etc.


Where were they when they found out it was a head injury? What parent would react to a kid hitting their sibling over the head by staging a cover up instead of calling 911. What's the motive for not just immediately calling 911?

They think she's dead? So I'll try with your theory.

She's upstairs in the room and Burke hits her over the head with a maglite flashlight. Mom comes into the room and tells the kids to stop fighting and sends Burke off to his room. (This is important because Burke doesn't realize the severity of what happened)


Jonbenet doesn't stop crying and Patsy gets angry not realizing how bad the injury is. She's tired and doesn't want to have to go to the hospital. She sees no visible injury and tells Jonbenet to stop whining and go to sleep. She closes the door and goes to bed and Jonbenet falls unconscious in the bed. Later in the night Patsy has second thoughts and decides to go in to check on her. When she does, she's horrified to find her seemingly dead. She runs to get John.

Burke is asleep through all this. They see she wet the bed when she passed out and hastily change her clothes and panic thinking they are going to jail for negligence. They should have taken her to the hospital. They're in big trouble now. They will be judged harshly for ignoring her injuries, laziness to it's finest.

They decide to concoct a plan. Patsy says that they have to mutilate the body horribly because no one would believe a parent could do that to their own child. (It's a brilliant move) John starts dictating the ransom note in the kitchen with Patsy. They write a sample note. He gives her the details to write for the ransom. Then he leaves her to finish the note and goes downstairs to do the deed. This is why the note sounds different halfway through. They finish everything and go around tiding certain things up. Wiping Burke's fingerprints off the flashlight. Hiding what they can. Patsy flattens the roll of duct tape and other items used to be smuggled out of the house with the guests that show up.

They rehearse the 911 call. Patsy actually sounds a little authentic on the call because the horror of it all kicks in. The cops show up, the house is filled and Burke has no idea that he's the one who actually killed her.

Until the autopsy report shows that John is the one who actually killed her. They are doomed forever.

How's that?

 

[Tawny]

JBR was not crying after that head bash. She was unconscious.

ETA: But I will say that it's quite possible BR had no idea he had killed her.

 

[MyBelle]

Alright, here is my long, drawn out theory.

The family comes home from the parties, JBR is awake. I believe BR over the parents on this one, sorry. PR is busy upstairs preparing for the trip, JR goes to bed. The kids have a snack in the dining room and then they either go up to the bedroom or down to the basement (flashlight in the dark?). It doesn't take force for a brother to get a sister to go somewhere, if he knows what will convince her to go (presents? a secret? a surprise?).

As has happened a few times already, BR proceeds to experiment with JBR and for the most part, she isn't struggling. He likely told her it's ok or whatever. I won't get into it too deeply, sibling sexual abuse is disturbing (although fairly common). At some point, she gets too loud (scream?) and maybe she fights back, so he hits her with the flashlight. Or maybe even it happens while they are doing something else, there is literally no way to know what precisely led to the bash.

BR, in a panic after JBR collapses, runs upstairs and tells mom what happened. She wakes JR and they go downstairs (or to the bedroom), see JBR in a heap on the floor (or bed) and tell BR everything will be ok, we'll take care of it, go to bed, and stay in your room no matter what. He's likely scared, thinking he is in deep trouble, and most kids in that situation will stay the heck put out of fear of more trouble.

The parents proceed to stage the scene. JR cleans her up, strangles her (not realizing she's still "alive"), etc., while PR writes that ridiculous note.

Maybe they planned to take her body somewhere. Maybe they decided they couldn't leave the house, maybe one of them refused to let the other go alone. Or maybe PR jumped the gun and called 911 before JR was ready.

Some things to note:
We don't know that any other Ramsey's DNA was NOT on JBR. We only know their DNA doesn't match the mixed sample of FOREIGN DNA on her waistband.
BR would NOT know about the staging and ransom note ("what did you find?") because he could have been sent upstairs and was not present for it. If it's his voice on the 911 call, maybe he heard Mom's frantic call and came downstairs or something.

I don't see why that is so completely implausible in the face of everything else.

ALL JMO. We all have THEORIES, nothing more. I'm pretty sure my theory is just as likely, possible, plausible as a plethora of other theories. If anyone knew for sure, we wouldn't be here discussing it. :facepalm:

You are totally ignoring the sophisticated, sadistic torture of the child that goes far beyond a couple of children playing doctor.

The cops did form conclusions based on the evidence. They actually spoke to Burke. I find it implausible to believe a parent would find their child in a heap on the floor and immediately set to work covering it up rather than calling 911 to try to keep her alive or revive her.

JMO

 

[Chewy]

Alright, here is my long, drawn out theory.

The family comes home from the parties, JBR is awake. I believe BR over the parents on this one, sorry. PR is busy upstairs preparing for the trip, JR goes to bed. The kids have a snack in the dining room and then they either go up to the bedroom or down to the basement (flashlight in the dark?). It doesn't take force for a brother to get a sister to go somewhere, if he knows what will convince her to go (presents? a secret? a surprise?).

As has happened a few times already, BR proceeds to experiment with JBR and for the most part, she isn't struggling. He likely told her it's ok or whatever. I won't get into it too deeply, sibling sexual abuse is disturbing (although fairly common). At some point, she gets too loud (scream?) and maybe she fights back, so he hits her with the flashlight. Or maybe even it happens while they are doing something else, there is literally no way to know what precisely led to the bash.

BR, in a panic after JBR collapses, runs upstairs and tells mom what happened. She wakes JR and they go downstairs (or to the bedroom), see JBR in a heap on the floor (or bed) and tell BR everything will be ok, we'll take care of it, go to bed, and stay in your room no matter what. He's likely scared, thinking he is in deep trouble, and most kids in that situation will stay the heck put out of fear of more trouble.

The parents proceed to stage the scene. JR cleans her up, strangles her (not realizing she's still "alive"), etc., while PR writes that ridiculous note.

Maybe they planned to take her body somewhere. Maybe they decided they couldn't leave the house, maybe one of them refused to let the other go alone. Or maybe PR jumped the gun and called 911 before JR was ready.

Some things to note:
We don't know that any other Ramsey's DNA was NOT on JBR. We only know their DNA doesn't match the mixed sample of FOREIGN DNA on her waistband.
BR would NOT know about the staging and ransom note ("what did you find?") because he could have been sent upstairs and was not present for it. If it's his voice on the 911 call, maybe he heard Mom's frantic call and came downstairs or something.

I don't see why that is so completely implausible in the face of everything else.

ALL JMO. We all have THEORIES, nothing more. I'm pretty sure my theory is just as likely, possible, plausible as a plethora of other theories. If anyone knew for sure, we wouldn't be here discussing it. :facepalm:

Thank you! :seeya:

Ok but come on, if Burke was sexually assaulting her in the middle of killing her, his DNA WOULD be found on her body by her genitals. There's just no way at all I'm going to believe that the cops just ignored his DNA showing up during a sexual assault when they've spent years and hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to solve this case.

 

[Tawny]

You'll have to be more specific about the sadistic torture. I'm not sure what you're referring to.

ETA: Since you find it implausible, MyBelle, then we are at an impasse.

They covered up for SOMETHING. Why not their son?

 

[Tawny]

Thank you! :seeya:

Ok but come on, if Burke was sexually assaulting her in the middle of killing her, his DNA WOULD be found on her body by her genitals. There's just no way at all I'm going to believe that the cops just ignored his DNA showing up during a sexual assault when they've spent years and hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to solve this case.

She was wiped down, that is a well-known fact.

 

[Chewy]

JBR was not crying after that head bash. She was unconscious.

ETA: But I will say that it's quite possible BR had no idea he had killed her.

We don't actually know that. I agree it's unlikely, but stranger things have occurred with head injuries. Someone's fine, and then later BAM they are unconscious. Maybe not crying but whining or something.

At least this theory would explain why they thought she was dead and reacted by trying to cover it up instead of going into normal parent mode of dialing 911.


It would also explain why Burke was able to stay silent to the police for so long. Perhaps he really had no idea he'd hurt her.

I would think that if Jonbenet collapsed to the point that he had to run to get his parents that this would be burned in his memory. This way he doesn't know the severity.

Parents rushing him into his room and freaking out in front of him are things he's going to react to and about in an interrogation with the police.

 

[Chewy]

She was wiped down, that is a well-known fact.

You can't wipe down "some DNA and not others"

 

[Tawny]

You can't wipe down "some DNA and not others"

Again, we don't know that his DNA wasn't anywhere on her, we just know his DNA didn't match the mixed sample of foreign DNA on her waistband. Unless you know of a source that confirms his DNA was NOWHERE on her body.

 

[MyBelle]

To add to my theory:

I think PR's motivation for the cover up was the shame associated with the abuse BR had inflicted on JBR and the fact that he killed her (as she thought at the time). She didn't want to be the mother of a murderer/abuser.

JR's motivation was likely protection of a son? I have no idea, that man is an enigma to me.

So you're saying it would be more shameful to Patsy to be the mother of little kid who stuck an object inside his sister rather than to be a wife of a man who stuck objects inside his child? I doubt it.

I don't believe JR covered for any reason other than for himself.

 

[Tawny]

I didn't say anything like that.

 

[MyBelle]

We don't actually know that. I agree it's unlikely, but stranger things have occurred with head injuries. Someone's fine, and then later BAM they are unconscious. Maybe not crying but whining or something.

At least this theory would explain why they thought she was dead and reacted by trying to cover it up instead of going into normal parent mode of dialing 911.


It would also explain why Burke was able to stay silent to the police for so long. Perhaps he really had no idea he'd hurt her.

I would think that if Jonbenet collapsed to the point that he had to run to get his parents that this would be burned in his memory. This way he doesn't know the severity.

Parents rushing him into his room and freaking out in front of him are things he's going to react to and about in an interrogation with the police.

ITA. Adult neighbors did hear screams. Smit did say that Burke told cops that his parents rushed into his room that morning and Patsy was in some kind of frenzy. BR did ask what they found and JR told him it didn't involve him. None of that points to BR being aware of what was going on much less being directly involved.

 

[chlban]

I don't think it's implausible at all that Burke could have hurt his sister and the parents covered it up. But unless the parents absolutely thought she was dead or were completely evil you get a road block in what happened.

I know not all crimes are logical.

But your suggestion is that Burke hits her over the head and the parents react by killing her to cover it up.

Jonbenet's cause of death was by asphyxiation not by head injury. That means she was breathing when they took her downstairs. Now this turns into a lot of time between step A. Burke hits Jonbenet and translates to Parents trying to figure out what to do and then jumping to

"I know, let's asphyxiate her with a garrote and mutilate her body and hide her in the basement and fake a kidnapping"How does this add up as a chain of events to you?

That's why, as I've said before, we have people leap frogging all over the place in theories. So John Ramsey was sexually molesting her, something goes wrong, no wait, John Ramsey was sexually molesting her and when Burke hit her over the head John was so worried that the sexual molestation would get picked up that he did this instead....

meanwhile back at reality camp, Jonbenet had 27 visits to doctors over the years, but suddenly they think taking her to the hospital is going to upset the whole apple cart and get them busted.

It's like frogger reading the arguments.

I am well aware of the cause of death. As for my personal belief I don't think it was both parents, I think it was Patsy. I also think she believed that she was either dead or so badly injured that she would not recover. Based on my own recent experience with viewing a head injury occur, up close and personal, I think it is also likely that JB was convulsing, as the young girl that I saw injured was. I can tell you that I absolutely thought the girl was dying. She convulsed terribly and was then completely unresponsive. Thank God I my perception was absolutely wrong and the girl only had a concussion, but I would never, ever have believed that had I not witnessed the injury and aftermath.

I still don't see how this idea is any less believable than the idea that one or both parents just decided to garrote their daughter to cover up sexual abuse. I personally don't believe John was the source of the abuse, but if he was,then OK maybe he would do it, but why on earth would Patsy write the RN and assist him? It is somehow more believable that she would cover for a child abusing husband than her nine year old child?

I see why this thread is so frustrating for so many. It seems almost any RDI theory is given reasonable consideration whether or not we all believe it except this one.

I still say people need to read Kolar's book. However, the one thing that moved me from 95% Patsy, 5% Burke to 50/50 Patsy or Burke was the Grand Jury Indictment, which clearly, IMO, states they assisted the killer. Who the heck else would they assist?

 

[MyBelle]

I didn't say anything like that.

You implied it. What your theory is missing is the fact that even if BR hit her over the head and her body was crumpled on the floor, there was no way to tell she had been sexually abused. That didn't come up until autopsy. Kids hit each other over the head daily and the normal reaction of the parent isn't shame, it is to get immediate medical attention.

So the idea that a parent is going to find her daughter crumpled to the floor and immediately believe her 9-year-old hit her intentionally and the mother decided to cover it up by further mutilating the body because she wanted to protect him really makes no sense.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I am well aware of the cause of death. As for my personal belief I don't think it was both parents, I think it was Patsy. I also think she believed that she was either dead or so badly injured that she would not recover. Based on my own recent experience with viewing a head injury occur, up close and personal, I think it is also likely that JB was convulsing, as the young girl that I saw injured was. I can tell you that I absolutely thought the girl was dying. She convulsed terribly and was then completely unresponsive. Thank God I my perception was absolutely wrong and the girl only had a concussion, but I would never, ever have believed that had I not witnessed the injury and aftermath.

I still don't see how this idea is any less believable than the idea that one or both parents just decided to garrote their daughter to cover up sexual abuse. I personally don't believe John was the source of the abuse, but if he was,then OK maybe he would do it, but why on earth would Patsy write the RN and assist him? It is somehow more believable that she would cover for a child abusing husband than her nine year old child?

I see why this thread is so frustrating for so many. It seems almost any RDI theory is given reasonable consideration whether or not we all believe it except this one.

I still say people need to read Kolar's book. However, the one thing that moved me from 95% Patsy, 5% Burke to 50/50 Patsy or Burke was the Grand Jury Indictment, which clearly, IMO, states they assisted the killer. Who the heck else would they assist?

There were two crimes: the long-term sex abuse and PR killed her. They both covered it up to protect themselves from prosecution for sex abuse and murder. If the GJ believed their acts were to "protect" their son, they would not have indicted them for child abuse.

JMO