Was Burke involved?

[Chewy]

I am well aware of the cause of death. As for my personal belief I don't think it was both parents, I think it was Patsy. I also think she believed that she was either dead or so badly injured that she would not recover. Based on my own recent experience with viewing a head injury occur, up close and personal, I think it is also likely that JB was convulsing, as the young girl that I saw injured was. I can tell you that I absolutely thought the girl was dying. She convulsed terribly and was then completely unresponsive. Thank God I my perception was absolutely wrong and the girl only had a concussion, but I would never, ever have believed that had I not witnessed the injury and aftermath.

I still don't see how this idea is any less believable than the idea that one or both parents just decided to garrote their daughter to cover up sexual abuse. I personally don't believe John was the source of the abuse, but if he was,then OK maybe he would do it, but why on earth would Patsy write the RN and assist him? It is somehow more believable that she would cover for a child abusing husband than her nine year old child?

I see why this thread is so frustrating for so many. It seems almost any RDI theory is given reasonable consideration whether or not we all believe it except this one.

I still say people need to read Kolar's book. However, the one thing that moved me from 95% Patsy, 5% Burke to 50/50 Patsy or Burke was the Grand Jury Indictment, which clearly, IMO, states they assisted the killer. Who the heck else would they assist?

Thank you for the relevant contribution, that makes a lot of sense. The flaw in the BDI theory IMO has always been the idea that a 9 year old child could dupe an intense police investigation

As far as the cover up, it could be interpreted as each covering for the other.

 

[chlban]

So let me just tell this story because, although it might appear off topic, it is not, IMO. What it is is a perfect example of why whoever hit JB in the head could very well have thought she was either dead or would be soon even with medical attention.

A week ago Friday afternoon I went to my 16 year old daughters school to pick her up.
She was talking with a boy and her best girlfriend so I got out to say hi and we stood near the field talking. Suddenly her girlfriend, a kid I have known since she was five, went down. It took us a minute to realize that she had been hit with a shot put. As it turned out, we discovered later, she was hit in the back of the head. She immediately started to convulse. I had left my phone in the car, but thankfully my amazing daughter (who is NEVER without her phone) reacted immediately and called 911 and then her friends mother. Then she completely lost it. I was holding the girls head off the ground so she did not hit it further. The paramedics were there in minutes but it felt like hours. I had blood all over my hands and most of my clothes.

I cannot tell you how horrifying this was. Of course we went to the hospital and when I could finally break away to call my husband and tell him what had happened (without my daughter or the girls parents in earshot) I told him it was really, really bad and I wasn't sure she woul d make it.

In the end, Thankfully, all she had was a concussion. They kept her overnight and she was released the next morning. She has no memory of being hit in the head, but remembers talking to us.

The moral of this is that I honestly thought this girl was dying or, at the very least, she would never fully recover. The convusions were not something I had ever really thought about in connection with JonBenet, but according to the girls mother, the Doctor told her it was not uncommon with head injuries. THAT is what scared the bejeezus out of me. I knew head wounds bleed alot, so that part hadn't particularly terrified me. But wathcing her convulse and then go into to totally non-responsive mode. I can see how someone like Patsy would very easily think there was simply nothing to be done for JonBenet and with her serious narcissm just move on to the staging.

Sorry, that is how I see Patsy. Always have. Those children were accessories in her "perfect life". One down, one to save.

 

[Chewy]

The only scenario that makes sense to me is that PR caught JR in bed with her daughter and exploded in rage. I see the cover-up to hide JR's sexual abuse. I think Patsy called 911 before JR could remove the body from the home because it wouldn't fit in the suitcase and Patsy thought the ransom note would deflect the cops to outside rather than inside. John left for a couple of hours to find something to put the body into and to dispose of the duct tape. The guy was desperate to get the body out of town. Maybe he intended to dispose of her in the lake.


JMO

This makes more sense to me than BDI. Imagine Patsy sneaking into the room with the flashlight intending to hit John but somehow killing Jonbenet and John covering for her because it was really his fault.

 

[chlban]

Alright, here is my long, drawn out theory.

The family comes home from the parties, JBR is awake. I believe BR over the parents on this one, sorry. PR is busy upstairs preparing for the trip, JR goes to bed. The kids have a snack in the dining room and then they either go up to the bedroom or down to the basement (flashlight in the dark?). It doesn't take force for a brother to get a sister to go somewhere, if he knows what will convince her to go (presents? a secret? a surprise?).

As has happened a few times already, BR proceeds to experiment with JBR and for the most part, she isn't struggling. He likely told her it's ok or whatever. I won't get into it too deeply, sibling sexual abuse is disturbing (although fairly common). At some point, she gets too loud (scream?) and maybe she fights back, so he hits her with the flashlight. Or maybe even it happens while they are doing something else, there is literally no way to know what precisely led to the bash.

BR, in a panic after JBR collapses, runs upstairs and tells mom what happened. She wakes JR and they go downstairs (or to the bedroom), see JBR in a heap on the floor (or bed) and tell BR everything will be ok, we'll take care of it, go to bed, and stay in your room no matter what. He's likely scared, thinking he is in deep trouble, and most kids in that situation will stay the heck put out of fear of more trouble.

The parents proceed to stage the scene. JR cleans her up, strangles her (not realizing she's still "alive"), etc., while PR writes that ridiculous note.

Maybe they planned to take her body somewhere. Maybe they decided they couldn't leave the house, maybe one of them refused to let the other go alone. Or maybe PR jumped the gun and called 911 before JR was ready.

Some things to note:
We don't know that any other Ramsey's DNA was NOT on JBR. We only know their DNA doesn't match the mixed sample of FOREIGN DNA on her waistband.
BR would NOT know about the staging and ransom note ("what did you find?") because he could have been sent upstairs and was not present for it. If it's his voice on the 911 call, maybe he heard Mom's frantic call and came downstairs or something.

I don't see why that is so completely implausible in the face of everything else.

ALL JMO. We all have THEORIES, nothing more. I'm pretty sure my theory is just as likely, possible, plausible as a plethora of other theories. If anyone knew for sure, we wouldn't be here discussing it. :facepalm:

That is pretty close to my theory of Burke's involvement, with one major difference. I think the staging was all Patsy. I don't think John knew about any of it until the next day as it dawned on him probably starting with recognizing Patsy's Handwriting on the RN and also her style. There are a few reasons why I lean to Patsy staging alone.

1. The RN. I don't believe he dictated the note, and I don't even believe he saw it ahead of time. It was too utterly absurd over the top, over dramatic. In other words it was Patsy. I don't believe if John had seen that note it would have been used. Too obvious and ridiculous.
2. Their behavior to one another the next morning. I believe if they had been acting together all night to stage, they would have been more in tune with one another on the morning of the 26th. I don't think John would ever have insisted there were not signs of an intruder or fessed up about having broken the basement window. That window as a perfect "out". If he knew what had really happened to JB, why wouldn't he have just feigned ignorance?
3. I do think it is stretching it to believe that neither parent would call for help after seeing JB injured and to think that they both assumed she was beyond help. I think it is far more likely that one parent would make the decisions that followed than that they would both be on the same page about it all. Since, in my opinion, there is no doubt the Patsy wrote the RN that means she was the parent. Again IMO.

 

[MyBelle]

This makes more sense to me than BDI. Imagine Patsy sneaking into the room with the flashlight intending to hit John but somehow killing Jonbenet and John covering for her because it was really his fault.

It is the only explanation of why either one would stage a sexual assault. They wouldn't try to hide long-term sexual abuse unless they knew for certain it existed.

 

[dodie20]

I find it fascinating that people can accept that one or both of the R's could have either accidentally, or some seem to believe not accidentally, killed JB and done all of the staging, but find it impossible to believe that they could have done the exact same staging you think they did for themselves, in order to protect their son.

I mean no disrespect, I honestly just don't get it. To me, if you are convinced it was RDI and that there absolutely was no intruder, then you have to accept it was one of the three. You may have a favorite theory, or theories, most of us do. But none of us knows for certain who did what.

I find it perfectly believable that Burke could have hit his sister and hit her hard. Then either Patsy or both parents covered it up. Why is that less believable than the idea that one parent hit her hard and then both parents covered it up? Maybe because they beleived JB was either already dead or too far gone to ever recover.

Personally, there is no way in Hell that I would protect a spouse if he harmed my child. Protecting another child? Thank God that is choice I have never had to make.

Keep in mind, I think it is highly unlikely that Patsy knew, that night, that Burke could not be prosecuted. That is not the kind of knowledge someone outside of LE or the legal profession would just have floating around in their brain. Aside from that you have the factor of your child being known to the world as the kid that killed, or at the very least, violently assaulted his younger sister. Finally you have narcissistic Patsy, who I believe would worry about how it would "look". Particularly if there was a sexual assault involved. Doesn't seem like the stuff mother of year awards are made of.

in some situations parents cover-up to protect another child, but I don't think this is one of those cases. If the Rs didn't know BR couldn't be prosecuted, they soon found out and IMO, the charade would have ended-like while all of their friends were being suspected or when JK was brought in? Somebody could have gotten in serious trouble and gone to the pen for life, been branded a child rapist and murderer...and why? because the Rs didn't want their sick son to get a bad reputation? All of this would have been handled in a way to legally protect BR's privacy and then the family could have moved away and started over somewhere. And the years and years of legal chaos would have stopped, and JR, could stop pointing the finger at friends. And regardless, BR has ALWAYS been seen as a possible suspect and this cover-up did nothing to protect his reputation. PR expected to be indicted and made jokes about prison stripes making her look fat. They could have both wound up in prison, or one of their so called friends could have been found guilty or an innocent stranger could have taken the rap. So, IDK about this, I don't think so, but anything's possible. BR was in the house that night, but until I see some real evidence implicating him, I don't think he did this. We know about the Rs fibers etc., and there may be something implicating BR that has been kept private, but it seems like at least some of it would have been leaked by now. moo

 

[THE BUNK]

It was too utterly absurd over the top, over dramatic.

The Ramsey's had never committed a crime before, nor investigated or researched a crime. How would either of them know what's appropriate for a ransom note? Also add to the fact that they didn't have time to proofread this thing or make a third draft.

. Their behavior to one another the next morning. I believe if they had been acting together all night to stage, they would have been more in tune with one another on the morning of the 26th. I don't think John would ever have insisted there were not signs of an intruder or fessed up about having broken the basement windo

Keep in mind that this whole thing is ad-hoc. Unrehearsed. The steps in this plan had to occur in their heads and be related to one another without the benefit of it being written down.

I think the reason that they were distant to each other has something to do with the body being at the scene. I have a feeling that both Patsy and John were not a united front on what was supposed to have happened to her body.

I do think it is stretching it to believe that neither parent would call for help after seeing JB injured and

Perhaps they did. John's cell phone records are missing for the month of Dec. Perhaps that's where the DNA comes from. Some "doctor" who examined her and concluded that she was dead.

 

[MyBelle]

Thank you for the relevant contribution, that makes a lot of sense. The flaw in the BDI theory IMO has always been the idea that a 9 year old child could dupe an intense police investigation

As far as the cover up, it could be interpreted as each covering for the other.

BBM. I agree with you and I believe the Grand Jury believes it which is why the parents were indicted for child abuse.

If the cops had believed Burke was responsible and it was an accident, they would have said so. No need for a grand jury. It was the ransom note and the evidence of long-term sexual abuse that lead to the Grand Jury being convened. Lack of evidence of who did what is why Hunter didn't sign the true bill. If Hunter had believed Burke did it, he would have signed the true bill and dropped the charges against his parents. Instead, he left the case "unsolved" to leave open the possibility of future charges against the parents.

 

[dodie20]

and I want to add something about IF BR had something to do with this and the Rs did cover up. The only way I could understand them not putting a stop to the charade is if , (like has been speculated), one of them saw JB clinging to life and thinking she was going to die anyway, finished her off. But this is so outrageous in my opinion, I don't give the idea much credence. Unless they saw and heard her being bashed in the head, they had no way of knowing she was anymore than knocked out, and no parent would kill their child because their son knocked her out. There are just too many unanswered questions with the BDI theory. moo

 

[THE BUNK]

and I want to add something about IF BR had something to do with this and the Rs did cover up. The only way I could understand them not putting a stop to the charade is if , (like has been speculated), one of them saw JB clinging to life and thinking she was going to die anyway, finished her off. But this is so outrageous in my opinion, I don't give the idea much credence. Unless they saw and heard her being bashed in the head, they had no way of knowing she was anymore than knocked out, and no parent would kill their child because their son knocked her out. There are just too many unanswered questions with the BDI theory. moo

It should be pointed out that the Ramsey's wouldn't be the first parents to not call the police after their child was hurt.

 

[MyBelle]

The Ramsey's had never committed a crime before, nor investigated or researched a crime. How would either of them know what's appropriate for a ransom note? Also add to the fact that they didn't have time to proofread this thing or make a third draft.



Keep in mind that this whole thing is ad-hoc. Unrehearsed. The steps in this plan had to occur in their heads and be related to one another without the benefit of it being written down.

I think the reason that they were distant to each other has something to do with the body being at the scene. I have a feeling that both Patsy and John were not a united front on what was supposed to have happened to her body.



Perhaps they did. John's cell phone records are missing for the month of Dec. Perhaps that's where the DNA comes from. Some "doctor" who examined her and concluded that she was dead.

How could his cell phone records be missing?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

How could his cell phone records be missing?

Yeah. that is not possible. They could have been gotten from the server. And in 1996... cell phones If I recall did not have package plans as they do now. I am not positive but I remember just paying per minute at the time..

The phone bills were very detailed.

 

[chlban]

Yeah. that is not possible. They could have been gotten from the server. And in 1996... cell phones If I recall did not have package plans as they do now. I am not positive but I remember just paying per minute at the time..

The phone bills were very detailed.

You're right. Also, although plenty of people had cell phones in '96, they weren't used like they are today, where you pretty much always have it nearby. Sure, he could have used his cell but it is probably more likely he would have used the land line.

I remember using my land line any time I was home, over my cell, because cell reception just wasn't that good, and I live in a very metropolitan area, not out in the country somewhere. In fact it is only in the last 6 or 7 years that my cell phone reception has been good.

They used the land line to call 911.

 

[MyBelle]

You're right. Also, although plenty of people had cell phones in '96, they weren't used like they are today, where you pretty much always have it nearby. Sure, he could have used his cell but it is probably more likely he would have used the land line.

I remember using my land line any time I was home, over my cell, because cell reception just wasn't that good, and I live in a very metropolitan area, not out in the country somewhere. In fact it is only in the last 6 or 7 years that my cell phone reception has been good.

They used the land line to call 911.

He probably had a cell phone through Access Graphics but this is the first I've heard the records were missing. The provider would have answered a subpoena.

 

[Linda7NJ]

It would serve a purpose of showing how you add up the reaction of the parents, the involvement of Burke and then how they came up with the cover up.

The reason people don't put it down step by step is that when you do it just doesn't make any sense.


I'll try


Burke is jealous of Jonbenet and resentful. She won awards over the holiday and she's been getting all sorts of attention. She's also annoying him. She's been doing things lately like touching his toys and he has a boiling rage and hatred towards her. They come back tired and cranky from the Christmas party and mom and dad are finishing up downstairs. They all eat a bit of pineapple and Jonbenet greedily snatches the last piece out of the bowl and gives a smug grin to Burke and enrages him further.

They go upstairs and he decides to get even when the parents go to sleep. No Christmas for Jonbenet according to Burke. He sneaks into her room when she's asleep and holds her at knife point with a knife from the kitchen. But she gets scared and pees the bed. This makes him mad so he tells her to change her clothes and goes to the drawer and pulls out the wrong size underwear. Then he takes her downstairs into the basement and .....

ok meanwhile no noise nothing waking up parents but hey, they are deep sleepers etc.....

so he's in the basement and he grabs the flashlight and bashes her over the head cause she starts whining. He's angry now. He fashions the garrote and strangles her and mutilates the body.

Now he's done. He goes upstairs to bed.


So mom and dad wake up as he's coming up the stairs. He's busted. They ask him what happened and what's going on. They sit down and realize he's killed her and there's no hope. They swear him to secrecy and send him to his room. Then they sit down and write the ransom note and John decides this, let's call everyone into the house.

John's motive for this is that he and Patsy have been sexually molesting the kids for years and he knows he's going to be looked at as a suspect. After all he's the one who sexualized Burke this way. They can't even let this be looked at as an inside job because John would take the fall.


The ransom note distracts the cops so they think she's been abducted. Cops don't search the house when there's a ransom note as we all know. We'll call everyone we know into the house to get them to contaminate the crime scene...............

and evil John's plan works perfectly how clever of him to know the police wouldn't properly contain the scene..........

He tells Patsy that she's got to make sure she and John both throw themselves on the body as soon as she's found (what a stroke of luck that he's the one to actually find her) and that they've got to make sure they ruin the investigation.

All goes according to plan.

It worked. Everyone knows that something is amiss but noone can prove it.

And this is a perfect crime except for two things.

Burke never broke his lie to the cops
His DNA was not all over Jonbenets body.


Oh.....right..............

so let's hear another version of how this went down please? Start to finish? I'm asking because I'm not seeing a scenario that makes any sense. If anyone has one I'd love to hear it.

Perhaps Burke simply enjoyed molesting her? Maybe JonBenet was a willing participant up till that night.
Maybe after their snack they were told to go to bed. Patsy busied herself with last minute whatever... Burke tells JonBenet he found wrapped gifts in the basement ...they go...to the basement.
Burke begins molesting her again, maybe he's the one that inserted the end of the paintbrush in her and she screamed. To shut her up, he whacks her with whatever was handy, like a golf club.

He leaves her, undressed and bleeding.

Patsy gets around to checking on the kids, maybe to do final bed tucking, she discovers JonBenet isn't in hers. But Burkes in his, pretending to be asleep. She searches the house, finds JonBenet outside the train room where the urine spot is. She immediately knows what happened and who did it. JonBenet appears to be dead. She spends the next 45- minutes to an hour grieving and fearing for her son, herself... And decides to make it appear an intruder kidnapped her daughter.

She wipes away blood from her vaginal area, redresses JonBenet, wraps her up, and moves her to the WC and adds tape& cord and blocks the door to the train room with the chair. She removed or hid other evidence like JonBenet's size 6 panties

Upstairs she writes the note.

Maybe John finding her AFTER what Patsy & Burke had done earlier decided to hide the body and moved it to the WC and covered her with the blanket. Hoping to be able to smuggle the body out on his plane? When he discovered that wasn't going to happen. He "found" her ... He was still very eager to get on that plane less than 30 minutes after finding his daughter dead for that " important meeting"

All IMO a possibility.



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[Chewy]

When you have to add "Maybe" it's because it is a weak argument. I suppose, based on your own experience, you can view that level of sexual depravity and moral corruption as something that could apply to the whole family but I think it is really pushing credibility to suggest the mother, father and nine year old boy were all equally sick and evil to the point that Burke could fool law enforcement in ways that Ted Bundy couldn't

 

[dodie20]

It should be pointed out that the Ramsey's wouldn't be the first parents to not call the police after their child was hurt.

I wouldn't have expected them to call the police! but a trip to the ER with the explanation that their 9 year old child caused this through some horrible accident. And no matter how you look at it, an accident would have been easier to stage, and made more sense, than all of this other stuff. moo

 

[chlban]

I wouldn't have expected them to call the police! but a trip to the ER with the explanation that their 9 year old child caused this through some horrible accident. And no matter how you look at it, an accident would have been easier to stage, and made more sense, than all of this other stuff. moo

And you don't think the Ramseys were smart enough to know that they might as well call the police? Like the hospital wasn't going to report it?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

And you don't think the Ramseys were smart enough to know that they might as well call the police? Like the hospital wasn't going to report it?

Report what? An injury? Burke hit JBR with the gold club accidentally and they got her treatment. They would have done the same had she been injured again.

They had no idea how bad it was. It was a closed head injury.. So they would just be worried about why she was out and take her to the hospital.
That is what their history shows imo

 

[MyBelle]

Perhaps Burke simply enjoyed molesting her? Maybe JonBenet was a willing participant up till that night.
Maybe after their snack they were told to go to bed. Patsy busied herself with last minute whatever... Burke tells JonBenet he found wrapped gifts in the basement ...they go...to the basement.
Burke begins molesting her again, maybe he's the one that inserted the end of the paintbrush in her and she screamed. To shut her up, he whacks her with whatever was handy, like a golf club.

He leaves her, undressed and bleeding.

Patsy gets around to checking on the kids, maybe to do final bed tucking, she discovers JonBenet isn't in hers. But Burkes in his, pretending to be asleep. She searches the house, finds JonBenet outside the train room where the urine spot is. She immediately knows what happened and who did it. JonBenet appears to be dead. She spends the next 45- minutes to an hour grieving and fearing for her son, herself... And decides to make it appear an intruder kidnapped her daughter.

She wipes away blood from her vaginal area, redresses JonBenet, wraps her up, and moves her to the WC and adds tape& cord and blocks the door to the train room with the chair. She removed or hid other evidence like JonBenet's size 6 panties

Upstairs she writes the note.

Maybe John finding her AFTER what Patsy & Burke had done earlier decided to hide the body and moved it to the WC and covered her with the blanket. Hoping to be able to smuggle the body out on his plane? When he discovered that wasn't going to happen. He "found" her ... He was still very eager to get on that plane less than 30 minutes after finding his daughter dead for that " important meeting"

All IMO a possibility.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why would the children be looking for wrapped gifts in the basement? They had already opened their gifts. It doesn't make sense to me that Patsy would immediately know the sexual assault took place and that Burke was the perp rather than John unless it is also true that Patsy was aware of the on-going sexual assault. Yet she did nothing about the ongoing sexual assault by a 9-year-old? She ignored it? I think it is more likely Patsy knew that her husband was the culprit. Patsy could control her son, she couldn't control her husband.