Was Burke involved?

[narlacat]

Paradox
You really think Patsy did all that by herself??
At what point did John know it was Patsy do you think??
I pretty much think John helped in the staging.

 

[Paradox]

Paradox
You really think Patsy did all that by herself??
At what point did John know it was Patsy do you think??
I pretty much think John helped in the staging.

Your idea of "Patsy" and mine are different. I think she had help from the small foreign faction inside her head. The note is eclectic. "We" is used in the note and by Patsy in the 911 call. Eclectic, multiplicity, signs of irrationality in the note and what was done to JB's body all add up to multiple personality disorder for me.

Just when John came in to it is THE question. But; THERE ARE NO CLEAR INDICATIONS THAT JOHN HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF IT.
Nothing like: he had the same clothes on that he had on the 25th, his handwriting is like the rn's, he signed off correspondences with initialisms etc.

And the story as related sounds true; John took a sleep aid, he was not dressed when Patsy screamed and handed him the note, he handed LE the pad, he disappeared around 11 am.

I think the small foreign faction took over after John went to sleep and they left when it was time for "Patsy" to wake up.

 

[Solace]

Actually, let's say Burke wasn't involved but Patsy "did it"... I feel incredibly sympathetic towards HER. If a RDI, whoever it is, I still feel sympathy towards their whole family. What a neverending nightmare.

The broad reason I suspect Burke was involved is that I think there was an attempted coverup of what really happened. The crime scene and evidence were staged. And I can't think of anyone they'd want to protect by staging things, except Burke.

Also I must admit, I am very sympathetic to BC's theory that Burke wrote the note, perhaps with vocab help from an older friend and/or dictionary. The writing comparison between the note and the one sample (inadvertant) we have of Burke's hand (the "That's my mom" sample) is eerily compelling in my opinion.

GuruJosh,

Could you post that sample. I have never seen it. Solace

 

[narlacat]

Your idea of "Patsy" and mine are different. I think she had help from the small foreign faction inside her head. The note is eclectic. "We" is used in the note and by Patsy in the 911 call. Eclectic, multiplicity, signs of irrationality in the note and what was done to JB's body all add up to multiple personality disorder for me.

Just when John came in to it is THE question. But; THERE ARE NO CLEAR INDICATIONS THAT JOHN HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF IT.
Nothing like: he had the same clothes on that he had on the 25th, his handwriting is like the rn's, he signed off correspondences with initialisms etc.

And the story as related sounds true; John took a sleep aid, he was not dressed when Patsy screamed and handed him the note, he handed LE the pad, he disappeared around 11 am.

I think the small foreign faction took over after John went to sleep and they left when it was time for "Patsy" to wake up.

Yeah I dunno Paradox, why would John stand by his daughter being murdered, by his wife no less....think of how, (in your scenario John being not guilty of anything eg the [sexual] abuse) he grieved for his first daughter that died....
I guess he could be out of wack enough that he didn't want to lose the position he had (when he in fact had nothing at all to do with it)
Really, I would have thought it was his perfect opportunity to get rid of her.....people are forgiving with time and she had a mental illness after all.....

In your theory then, the Ram's deserve more than an Oscar for the performance on the morning of the 26th then, because they wouldn't have had much time to collaborate, if he woke to Patsy screaming and handing him the note, or however it went!....it's just being discussed on another thread....and then they rang 911 and the first officer arrived shortly afterwards...
He must have realised it was her from the note as soon as he had read it surely....or maybe you think things added up as the morning progressed and he had time to think....not that he would have had much time to think...you think he found JBR at 11? and maybe that's when he knew for sure?,actually wasn't it around 10 that JR went to the basement and that was when he said he found the broken window in the train room?

 

[ellen13]

just one interesting thought that you all made me think about-although i do think john was in on it, it is funny that patsy was in the same clothes but john actually showered and changed.

 

[narlacat]

Oh!
I've never thought why one was changed and one wasn't!

We only have the R's word that JR was in the shower that morning....so he may or may not have had one....geez I wonder if officer French noticed if JR's hair was wet that morning, though not everyone gets their hair wet every time they have a shower...alot of guys do, it was winter though...

Anyway, why would one be dressed in the same clothes as the night before and one not?
Maybe because one was up and one wasn't?

 

[Paradox]

Yeah I dunno Paradox, why would John stand by his daughter being murdered, by his wife no less....think of how, (in your scenario John being not guilty of anything eg the [sexual] abuse) he grieved for his first daughter that died....
I guess he could be out of wack enough that he didn't want to lose the position he had (when he in fact had nothing at all to do with it)
Really, I would have thought it was his perfect opportunity to get rid of her.....people are forgiving with time and she had a mental illness after all.....

In your theory then, the Ram's deserve more than an Oscar for the performance on the morning of the 26th then, because they wouldn't have had much time to collaborate, if he woke to Patsy screaming and handing him the note, or however it went!....it's just being discussed on another thread....and then they rang 911 and the first officer arrived shortly afterwards...
He must have realised it was her from the note as soon as he had read it surely....or maybe you think things added up as the morning progressed and he had time to think....not that he would have had much time to think...you think he found JBR at 11? and maybe that's when he knew for sure?,actually wasn't it around 10 that JR went to the basement and that was when he said he found the broken window in the train room?

I think John had joined The Dark Side; doubt, pessimism, isolation, negativity, nihilism,desire for revenge, a long time before Patsy went into decline. It didn't take much for him to go sociopathic.

 

[Camper]

Lets review this 'which came first chicken or egg deal' on who was dressed and who wasn't.

1. Was JR sleeping heartily still at that hour of the morning?

2. What time did JR take his melatonin? Do you take just one er more than one, I donut know. How long does it let you sleep heartily?

3. Was JR sleeping when PR got up, and dressed quickly in her 'last nights' clothes?

4. How many moms get totally dressed early A.M. to go downstairs to make coffee?

5. In PR story SHE has to find the note while JR is discombooberated, either IN the shower, OR sound asleep.

a. Did she find the note when JR was sleeping and SHE was not dressed?

b. Could JR hear her scream IF he was IN THE SHOWER?

c. Was the coffee made when LE arrived?

6. Discombooberated JR comes flying down the stairs in response to PR's screams IF he was IN the shower, OR if he was awakened by a SCREAM.

a. IF JR was indeed discombooberated when he heard the SCREAM, and by the time he got to the scene, and PR was already on the phone. WHY didn't he interject to the 911 call about the beheading etc. IF the R's talked to ANYONE???

b. WE have JR standing by letting all of the superfluous friend inviting etc go on unabated by him, WHY?

c. Does a CEO let his wife steam roller him over this note and the SAFETY of his little daughter?

d. I believe JR smelled the coffee sometime 'that' morning, most likely when he heard PR making the 911 call, OR OR he knew 'in the night' and helped to cover a family member, their reputation etc. and went along with the self defense mechanism. He said it was an inside job, yep.

7. IF JR took his pill/pills and went straight to bed, and IF PR never got to the bedroom cuz she was doing MOM stuff prior to the trip, hmmm.

8. Is it possible that PR found 'A' note, then recopied it and added NEW features to it?

 

[Paradox]

Yeah I dunno Paradox, why would John stand by his daughter being murdered, by his wife no less....

He doesn't. He stands by the intruder theory.

 

[Paradox]

Really, I would have thought it was his perfect opportunity to get rid of her.....people are forgiving with time and she had a mental illness after all.....

I think Patsy was an appendage to John, and JonBenet an appendage to Patsy.
John didn't lose part of himself when JB died, he would lose part of himself if Patsy was lost to him.

 

[Paradox]

In your theory then, the Ram's deserve more than an Oscar for the performance on the morning of the 26th then, because they wouldn't have had much time to collaborate, if he woke to Patsy screaming and handing him the note, or however it went!...

The Boulder PD was the audience. Lawrence Olivier wasn't needed. Soupy Sales could have done the job.

 

[Toltec]

John said he was getting dressed when he heard Patsy scream...so he was in the process of putting his drawers on when he heard Patsy scream...

Great timing by Patsy in that she waited until he got out of the shower before "screaming".

Patsy said she didn't shower because her shower was broken, so she went to her bathroom, put on her make-up, brushed her hair and got dressed in the same clothes she wore the night before. She recalled what her mother said..."never go anywhere without your makeup on.".

Patsy knew she would be calling her friends over and heaven forbid they see her with a robe, mussed hair and no makeup.

Patsy timed it perfectly...while John was showering, she put her plan into action.

 

[Paradox]

John said he was getting dressed when he heard Patsy scream...so he was in the process of putting his drawers on when he heard Patsy scream...

Great timing by Patsy in that she waited until he got out of the shower before "screaming".

Patsy said she didn't shower because her shower was broken, so she went to her bathroom, put on her make-up, brushed her hair and got dressed in the same clothes she wore the night before. She recalled what her mother said..."never go anywhere without your makeup on.".

Patsy knew she would be calling her friends over and heaven forbid they see her with a robe, mussed hair and no makeup.

Patsy timed it perfectly...while John was showering, she put her plan into action.

I don't think so. "Patsy" was supposed to be up by a certain time. So "Patsy" came to at that time. John just happened to be dressing or in the shower. He could just as well have been asleep. But "Patsy" had to be present and in charge before anyone else had the chance.

 

[Camper]

I donut know about your husbands BUT mine woulda said, "Honey you use my shower in the morning, since yers is bustilated."

Yep, her plan needed her to get dressed and 'ready' as soon as JR was discombooberated and almost done with his shower. She getting dressed while he was 'IN' the shower or mightily asleep.

They were in fact, 'family' and IF it was a disastrous climax to an emotional 'breakdown' on PR's part, I do believe he would continue to preserve the remnants of their life. The same holds true if the older son has a manufactured alibi, and protective legal representation for the 'entire' family in GA, provided by JR.

This is my PET theory. The SBTC and the victory expressed in the Ransom note, also point to PR finding JonBenet being sexually manipulated at 12A.M. (the nightly bed check/potty trip), by a family member and taking a swing at the perp, and hitting JonBenet instead. This may sound lame to some, but since we don't know, it is as good a thought as many others. Plus it was expressed early and often in the first years after the death of JonBenet.

Victory in thought that JonBenet would never have to endure this perversion by a known family member, who was ________ fill in the blank.

A certain fact is that WE do not know ALL of the facts of that night. All the fingers stuck into the holes of the Ramsey Dam are still holding the waters in place.

.

 

[concernedperson]

I just think it is homegrown too. It would be better if it wasnt but I can't get away from what I have read and what I have seen and how I can relate it. Sorry, this is an opinion board for the most part and this is just MOP.

 

[Toltec]

I have to agree with Narla and Dingo. Remember thatjust 3 years prior, he hit her with a golf club in the head and she was in the emergency room when he was just 6 and she was 3 (accident, maybe). One of my theories is that he got his idea about killing her when he was 6, which might even be worse-premeditated! Maybe Patsy got questioned so much when she took JBR into that ER, that she knew to cover it up if something like this happened again. We don't know if a social worker got involved at that point.
To me, that's important "past behavior" knowledge.
And, yes, I know that most sociopaths do start out hurting animals and don't show remorse, but to my knowledge, Scott Peterson never killed an animal.
I still believe it's possible that BR could have had something to do with this.
I'm not sure if he could do the elaborate cover-up in that manner (but that is where the other 2 people in the house might have gotten involved), but he could have definitely strangled her or hit her in the head. Even a 6 year-old could do that, as he showed 3 years prior to her death.

Burke "accidently hit JonBenet in the face AND LEG! Two "accidental swings"???

 

[luvbeaches]

This is my PET theory. The SBTC and the victory expressed in the Ransom note, also point to PR finding JonBenet being sexually manipulated at 12A.M. (the nightly bed check/potty trip), by a family member and taking a swing at the perp, and hitting JonBenet instead. This may sound lame to some, but since we don't know, it is as good a thought as many others. Plus it was expressed early and often in the first years after the death of JonBenet.


A certain fact is that WE do not know ALL of the facts of that night. All the fingers stuck into the holes of the Ramsey Dam are still holding the waters in place.

That was my pet theory for a long time, then after a bit, I moved to the Steve Thomas theory of what happened. Either way, someone in that family knows exactly what happened that night.

I am also a believer that Bruke had nothing to do with JonBenet's death. I personally feel that his life ended the same night that JonBenet's did...poor kid. I have always felt so sad for him. Maybe when John passes (or before), Burke will finally be able to shed light on what really happened that night. I think he heard things, and maybe saw a few things.

LOL...Yes, the Ramsey Dam is still holding...for now.

 

[concernedperson]

That was my pet theory for a long time, then after a bit, I moved to the Steve Thomas theory of what happened. Either way, someone in that family knows exactly what happened that night.

I am also a believer that Bruke had nothing to do with JonBenet's death. I personally feel that his life ended the same night that JonBenet's did...poor kid. I have always felt so sad for him. Maybe when John passes (or before), Burke will finally be able to shed light on what really happened that night. I think he heard things, and maybe saw a few things.

LOL...Yes, the Ramsey Dam is still holding...for now.

Your opinions are so close to mine in this case and many others. I think sometimes we are speaking from the same viewpoint.

 

[Brefie]

I wonder if (assuming they are guilty of SOMETHING) they feel that the dam is now stronger with one less person to talk, or weaker now that they have only loyalty to ONE living person?

Cold, I know, but one does wonder.

 

[wenchie]

I donut know about your husbands BUT mine woulda said, "Honey you use my shower in the morning, since yers is bustilated."

Yep, her plan needed her to get dressed and 'ready' as soon as JR was discombooberated and almost done with his shower. She getting dressed while he was 'IN' the shower or mightily asleep.

They were in fact, 'family' and IF it was a disastrous climax to an emotional 'breakdown' on PR's part, I do believe he would continue to preserve the remnants of their life. The same holds true if the older son has a manufactured alibi, and protective legal representation for the 'entire' family in GA, provided by JR.

This is my PET theory. The SBTC and the victory expressed in the Ransom note, also point to PR finding JonBenet being sexually manipulated at 12A.M. (the nightly bed check/potty trip), by a family member and taking a swing at the perp, and hitting JonBenet instead. This may sound lame to some, but since we don't know, it is as good a thought as many others. Plus it was expressed early and often in the first years after the death of JonBenet.

Victory in thought that JonBenet would never have to endure this perversion by a known family member, who was ________ fill in the blank.

A certain fact is that WE do not know ALL of the facts of that night. All the fingers stuck into the holes of the Ramsey Dam are still holding the waters in place.

.

That was my original theory, too. It seemed to be the only thing that made sense. I imagined Patsy walking in on John molesting her daughter, and Jonbenet getting caught in the middle of a fight over it.

As time went by, though - that theory faded for me. I think that John was suspicious when he first saw the note, but couldn't confront Patsy at a time like that. I think that the "look" that Linda Arndt saw when they were both leaning over Jonbenet's body was a combination of John's realization that Patsy had, indeed, killed Jonbenet - and his decision to save Patsy.

I agree with Steve Thomas about it being a rage killing. I don't really believe that Jonbenet was sexually molested. It sounded like John wasn't even home much, let alone having long periods of time spent alone with Jonbenet. I tend to believe that the vaginal injuries were from rough wiping by Patsy when she was in a semi-rage.