Was Burke involved?

Was Burke involved in JB's death?

  • Burke was involved in the death of JBR

    Votes: 377 59.6%
  • Burke was totally uninvolved in her death

    Votes: 256 40.4%

  • Total voters
    633
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  • #361
Heyya UKGuy,

Unless the longjohns were found in the downstairs laundry room,
or were part of the load containing blanket and pink barbie nightgown, as LHP suggested.

Tadpole12,
Hello, well Patsy claims they were sourced upstairs, she stated this in one of her interviews.

This might be lies of course. I reckon the longjohs are redundant in the sense they are not required for the staging since there are other, possibly more suited, items available e.g. Pink Barbie Nightgown, or her Pink Pajama Bottoms.

This is a bit like the size-12's except its not as obvious, in your face. You are faking or staging a crime-scene, its a bedtime abduction, so you want your victim to appear dressed for bed. You have available the pink bottoms and the pink nightgown, so why not select one of those. Why would you choose the longjohns which then require an explanation? This is what I mean by them being redundant, they do not add any authenticity to the staging.

The person who enacted the wine-cellar crime-scene messed it up, particularly with those size-12's. Fibers from John's shirt were found inside the size-12's, also redressing JonBenet in size-12's is not a mistake I would expect Patsy to make. To indirectly corroborate this Patsy appears to have had no knowledge there were no size-12's anywhere in the house!

So with the information we have at present it appears that John is the person who redressed JonBenet for the wine-cellar crime-scene. From a practical point of view, I reckon the longjohns were selected simply because they held the size-12's up. Again this choice, although pragmatic, appears to be one a male might make, rather than opting for size-6 underwear, suggesting either time was running out or that John has something to hide from Patsy? Which again is corroborated by Patsy's ignorance.


Of course this is all speculation and you might be entirely correct: John just made do what what was closely available. Then again we still do not know the purpose of the Pink Barbie Nightgown or the Barbie Doll, or where JonBenet's size-6 underwear or Pink Pajama Bottoms are?



.
 
  • #362
another ramsey could have let someone in 7/or given directions.

runsdeep,
It gets better if you like Columbo twists. The R's hid keys around the entrance to their house, for ease of entrance and some friends and relatives also had spare keys!


.
 
  • #363
If the evening began with Patsy legitimately getting her ready for bed- it was winter. Kids kick off bedcovers. Asleep or not, I'd have still put some type of pajama bottom or longjohns on her, so Patsy saying she put the longjohns on really isn't unusual to me.
We don't know if Patsy is lying through her teeth. How could we? JB may very well have worn the pink pajama bottoms instead of the longjohns when she got home from the White's, and left the white shirt on. This theory fits as well, especially since the pink bottoms seem to be unaccounted for (as well as any size 6 panties she may have worn that day.
There WAS a pair soiled with fecal matter lying on JB's floor (not sure if it was the bathroom floor or her room- I have read both) inside a pair of black pants. Patsy was questioned about this, and said it wasn't the black pants she wore to the White's (which were velvet) but instead was a pair of black "play pants" she wore earlier in the day. I have always been suspicious about that. While plenty of little girls have black cotton or corduroy play pants, I believe these pants seen on the floor with the fecal stains in them were, in fact, the black velvet pants she wore to the White's. Her soiling them was probably the kicking off point for Patsy that evening. She was tired, stressed from the busy Christmas, and still had to get things in order for a trip she really didn't want to make. She was to meet her stepdaughter's new fiance for the first time. She then was going on to yet another family holiday on a Disney Cruise, where she would "celebrate" turning 40. BIG time stress stuff. JB soiling herself yet again was something she really didn't deal with too well.
We don't know what became of the pink pajama bottoms, OR the black velvet pants she wore to the White's that day. LE didn't really ask about them, as far as I know.
Letting a child have a bedtime snack wearing pajamas is something any parent would do. JB wet the bed every night anyway. Patsy had the sheets changed every day anyway. Cranky kids who may not have eaten much at a party, the excitement of Christmas, the presents, etc. Kids who are hungry at bedtime do not fall asleep. A snack would not seem unusual.
I also believe she never went to bed that night.
Obviously when she was assaulted, she was naked from the waist down. She bled onto her thighs and pubic area, and there was no blood on her longjohns. If she was wearing the pink bottoms, possibly they were bloodied, along with her original panties. The lonhjogns and size 12 panties were added to replace them.
We also can't assume that Patsy had to go back upstairs to get the longjohns (if they were not originally put on her)- they may have been in the basement dryer along with the white blanket. We really don't know the truth here about the pink bottoms, longjohns and black velvet pants. We can assume it was JR who redressed her because of his wool shirt fibers being found in the new panties.
Obviously the whole point of saying this wasn't a pedophile is that, just as you say, a pedophile wouldn't have redressed her anyway. I suppose they COULD have left her naked from the waist down and wrapped in her blanket, but - and this is one more thing that points to the parents' involvement- I can't see Patsy wanting JB found that way. It was all about how she would be found. They wanted to mask the sexual assault, at least to outward appearances. That is why, IMO, they both got so defensive when confronted with the evidence of sexual abuse. Patsy demanding to know "show me where it says that" and JR saying they were trying to disgrace his "relationship with his daughter".
JB could just as easily have been redressed in the longjohns whether or not she was originally wearing them. There is nothing that suggests she was or was not wearing them when she got home. Could have been either.
Frankly, she could also have been wearing the pink nightie, then been redressed in the white top and longjohns. There was a small amount of blood on the pink nightie, which could have happened at the time of the assault or could have happened as she was being cleaned up.
Again, we really have no way to know for sure WHAT she wore originally to bed.
I feel the pineapple snack was eaten in whatever Patsy dressed her in for bed. It could be any of the mentioned garments: the pink Barbie nightie, the white top and longjohns, the white top and missing pink bottoms, the pink pajama top and bottom, and throw the red turtleneck in there too somewhere. Several possibilities. Was the red turtleneck ever tested for blood/urine? I don't think so. I don't think Patsy needed to put a "condition" on JB wearing anything specific in order to have a bedtime snack. She may have said "OK, you can have a snack after you get ready for bed". Or JB may have had the snack while still dressed in her outfit she wore to the White's. Then, if she soiled her pants after eating the pineapple, I can totally see Patsy exploding over that.
There are so many variables in this case. People, clothing, actions. Lies surrounding all of it, NO witnesses that were not family members (that we are aware of). An inadequate and weak DA, incompetent police. Shady relationships with the defense. Put it all together and no wonder we are here all these years later still talking about what she was wearing when she died, what room she died in, and the exact TOD. Things that should have been determined in the first weeks of the investigation, or at least before the house was turned back over to the family and especially before ANYONE who was NOT LE was allowed back inside to remove stuff. Frankly after Aunt P went over there, the investigation was pretty much over at that point.




DeeDee249,
We don't know what became of the pink pajama bottoms, OR the black velvet pants she wore to the White's that day. LE didn't really ask about them, as far as I know.
From memory JonBenet's pants are on her other bed.
Black velvet pants, on JBRs second bed.
005jonbenetbedXXLARGE.jpg


This is the pink pajama top
003jonbenetbed.jpg



From Acandyrose
#385 After Search Warrants obtained -- Patsy Ramsey (6/98)

JonBenet's Velvet Gap belt worn to the White's (0463-16) TRIP DEMUTH: All right. Go back here. 386, do you recognize those articles of clothing? PATSY RAMSEY: This is her little velvet belt. TRIP DEMUTH: That is photo 386, it is the article of clothing on the right of the picture. What belt? PATSY RAMSEY: Little Gap belt. TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. PATSY RAMSEY: She would have worn to the White's. I can't tell where the (inaudible). The ones that (inaudible). Zip up. These kind of look like a plastic waist. I can't tell. TRIP DEMUTH: All right. PATSY RAMSEY: What is in the towel? TRIP DEMUTH: Is that JonBenet's mattress that goes around that? PATSY RAMSEY: Probably, yeah. Yeah, because I had to fasten it (inaudible).

Obviously the whole point of saying this wasn't a pedophile is that, just as you say, a pedophile wouldn't have redressed her anyway. I suppose they COULD have left her naked from the waist down and wrapped in her blanket, but - and this is one more thing that points to the parents' involvement- I can't see Patsy wanting JB found that way.
Leaving her naked from the waist down or redressing her in the pink pajamas or her pink nightgown are the stagers best options. This is why I mention them. You actually have a choice of making your wine-cellar crime-scene entirely consistent with your bedtime abduction, why not go for naked, gown or pajama bottoms?

Its not like they were rushed so much they only had one item to slect from. The crime-scene evidence tells us this, although I am assuming the pink pajama bottoms were also available, which I cannot confirm.

If I was Patsy I would have gone for her pink nightgown, who could say that was not suitable?


Again, we really have no way to know for sure WHAT she wore originally to bed.
I agree, and its not an assumption I would make. I might assume she was killed on her bed, then again the forensic evidence found there might simply represent a prior staged crime-scene?
 
  • #364
i wonder what burke's relationship is like with his dad & half bro and sis now that he is grown
 
  • #365
i wonder what burke's relationship is like with his dad & half bro and sis now that he is grown

I am sure it is fine. BR put this case behind him LONG ago. I can imagine him not really wanting to "go there" any more. I am sure he must have his moments were the memories he still has about that night come back. If he was involved, he will never, ever admit it. If he KNOWS who did it, I doubt he'll say so. When his father and aunt P die, it will be interesting to see what, if anything, he says.
 
  • #366
respectfully snipped

To indirectly corroborate this Patsy appears to have had no knowledge there were no size-12's anywhere in the house!

.

Are you saying Patsy had no knowledge of the panties or? Because she did know the panties were there....that's how we know they came from Bloomingdales.
 
  • #367
I am sure it is fine. BR put this case behind him LONG ago. I can imagine him not really wanting to "go there" any more. I am sure he must have his moments were the memories he still has about that night come back. If he was involved, he will never, ever admit it. If he KNOWS who did it, I doubt he'll say so. When his father and aunt P die, it will be interesting to see what, if anything, he says.

I actually followed him on Twitter for a while...seems like a normal young man. He talked about spending time with his dad, going to college, games, music, etc.,. Sort of boring stuff and I didn't find anything at all suspicious. Of course all his tweets are probably monitored by Wood.
 
  • #368
IMO Burke doesn't know anything more than what he has already said and he was not involved in JonBenet's death.
 
  • #369
I actually followed him on Twitter for a while...seems like a normal young man. He talked about spending time with his dad, going to college, games, music, etc.,. Sort of boring stuff and I didn't find anything at all suspicious. Of course all his tweets are probably monitored by Wood.

And that makes me question his involvement. How can he be so normal if he had a part in what happened to JonBenet? He should be mentally damaged if he did something that resulted in her death, maybe even hurt someone else by now, yet the way he's described is as normal as normal gets. I really think maybe he wasn't involved, or if he was, he's either some kind of sociopath to carry on as normal after doing something to cause his sister's death, or got really good therapy to get past it, I suppose.
 
  • #370
I actually followed him on Twitter for a while...seems like a normal young man. He talked about spending time with his dad, going to college, games, music, etc.,. Sort of boring stuff and I didn't find anything at all suspicious. Of course all his tweets are probably monitored by Wood.

did he ever mention his half bro and sis?

i dont see how a 9 yr old can do that and not show indices of similar behaviors...any documentation on that?
 
  • #371
Are you saying Patsy had no knowledge of the panties or? Because she did know the panties were there....that's how we know they came from Bloomingdales.

vlpate,
Well this was discussed at some length.

Might be instructive to work backwards:
that's how we know they came from Bloomingdales.
Yes Patsy states in her interview that she purchased size-12 Bloomingdale underwear for her niece Jenny.

Because she did know the panties were there
I'm not certain what you mean by there, but whatever the location, we cannot make the assumption she knew!

Are you saying Patsy had no knowledge of the panties
She had no knowledge of where they were located after JonBenet was redressed in them.

How can we assume this, because she told BPD that she personally placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, yet BDP found no size-12's anywhere in the house. I doubt she would have made this claim if it had been her who redressed JonBenet and then removed the sie-12's from the house e.g. via pam.

I suspect Patsy never knew about the size-12's right up to the headline splash in the tabloids. John plainly never said anything to her prior to the interview, so she walked in assuming whomever had redressed JonBenet would have placed the remainder in her underwear drawer.


.
 
  • #372
IMO Burke doesn't know anything more than what he has already said and he was not involved in JonBenet's death.

FairM,

Burke knows far more than what he has said. He was there that night he knows if JonBenet was undressed for bed, when she snacked pineapple, if she went to bed. What really happened the next morning etc. He is the only witness that could break this case, his father will be making sure he is well cared for, believe me!

.
 
  • #373
vlpate,
Well this was discussed at some length.

Might be instructive to work backwards:

Yes Patsy states in her interview that she purchased size-12 Bloomingdale underwear for her niece Jenny.


I'm not certain what you mean by there, but whatever the location, we cannot make the assumption she knew!


She had no knowledge of where they were located after JonBenet was redressed in them.

How can we assume this, because she told BPD that she personally placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, yet BDP found no size-12's anywhere in the house. I doubt she would have made this claim if it had been her who redressed JonBenet and then removed the sie-12's from the house e.g. via pam.

.
I suspect, at first, Patsy wanted the police to think the intruder brought these special panties to JonBenet...as if he had a granny pantie pedophile fetish. She felt she had to admit to buying them, when asked, because there were people who knew she bought them - did she think they'd be traced back to her while staging, heck no. She had to admit to buying them, and then to the panties being in the drawer after they figured out she bought them - she had to have put them somewhere and she couldn't claim she gave them to Jenny.
She doesn't care that it makes not one lick of sense that the intruder would take the rest of the underwear - fiddle dee, don't go there buddy.
 
  • #374
did he ever mention his half bro and sis?

i dont see how a 9 yr old can do that and not show indices of similar behaviors...any documentation on that?

Not that I recall (mentioning sibs). Any documentation on what?
 
  • #375
And that makes me question his involvement. How can he be so normal if he had a part in what happened to JonBenet? He should be mentally damaged if he did something that resulted in her death, maybe even hurt someone else by now, yet the way he's described is as normal as normal gets. I really think maybe he wasn't involved, or if he was, he's either some kind of sociopath to carry on as normal after doing something to cause his sister's death, or got really good therapy to get past it, I suppose.

Well tweets are pretty brief little snippets of what a person is doing - nothing major, which I'm sure you know. His tweets were something like, "going fishing with dad", or "got the new blah-de-blah" cd, or something about games...nothing you could really gauge as far as feelings.

Casey Anthony's texts only became telling after we knew Caylee's body was rotting away in the swamp while she was tweeting...before that they would have seemed perfectly normal.
 
  • #376
And that makes me question his involvement. How can he be so normal if he had a part in what happened to JonBenet? He should be mentally damaged if he did something that resulted in her death, maybe even hurt someone else by now, yet the way he's described is as normal as normal gets. I really think maybe he wasn't involved, or if he was, he's either some kind of sociopath to carry on as normal after doing something to cause his sister's death, or got really good therapy to get past it, I suppose.

You'd be surprised what people can "bury" inside them. And if you tell the same lie often enough to yourself, eventually it becomes your "truth".
This was one horrific event in BR's past, whatever his involvement was. Doesn't mean he is a serial killer. Doesn't mean he's a sociopath. Doesn't mean he'll do it again. His session with a therapist right after the murder indicated a boy already detaching himself from his sister and her death. In his own words "I just want to get on with my life" spoken DAYS after the death. And so he did.
 
  • #377
FairM,

Burke knows far more than what he has said. He was there that night he knows if JonBenet was undressed for bed, when she snacked pineapple, if she went to bed. What really happened the next morning etc. He is the only witness that could break this case, his father will be making sure he is well cared for, believe me!

.

Hi UKGuy

Why do you say he knows far more than what he has said? He has already answered questions about what happened, including questions from the police on the morning of 26th at the Whites house and before the Grand Jury. Perhaps he said told all that he knows!
 
  • #378
You'd be surprised what people can "bury" inside them. And if you tell the same lie often enough to yourself, eventually it becomes your "truth".
This was one horrific event in BR's past, whatever his involvement was. Doesn't mean he is a serial killer. Doesn't mean he's a sociopath. Doesn't mean he'll do it again. His session with a therapist right after the murder indicated a boy already detaching himself from his sister and her death. In his own words "I just want to get on with my life" spoken DAYS after the death. And so he did.

Hi DeeDee,
This is true .

Everyone has their own coping mechanisms when it comes to grief or dealing with trauma, Burke's words said days after JonBenet's death may sound "cold" but imo it sounds like his way of coping , one way of distancing yourself from something truely horrific and wanting to move forward, to get back to normal. Children tend to move in and out of grief quiet quickly for example one minute they are upset the next playing like nothing happened then upset again etc.
 
  • #379
I suspect, at first, Patsy wanted the police to think the intruder brought these special panties to JonBenet...as if he had a granny pantie pedophile fetish. She felt she had to admit to buying them, when asked, because there were people who knew she bought them - did she think they'd be traced back to her while staging, heck no. She had to admit to buying them, and then to the panties being in the drawer after they figured out she bought them - she had to have put them somewhere and she couldn't claim she gave them to Jenny.
She doesn't care that it makes not one lick of sense that the intruder would take the rest of the underwear - fiddle dee, don't go there buddy.

vlpate,
I suspect, at first, Patsy wanted the police to think the intruder brought these special panties to JonBenet
Not quite, because that was the first thing established by the interviewer, after interruptions from LW about factual questions and references to the tabloids.

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt
18 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Well, let's start
19 with what - I will make it very simple for
20 you, Mrs. Ramsey. What information are you
21 in possession of or what do you know about
22 the underwear that your daughter was wearing
23 at the time she was found murdered?
24 A. I have heard that she had on a
25 pair of Bloomi's that said Wednesday on them.
0078
1 Q. The underwear that she was
2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you
3 know where they come from as far as what
4 store?
5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.
6 Q. Who purchased those?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased
9 them?
10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.
Because the tabloids splashed this information regarding the size-12's, Patsy knew prior to the interview that they were likely to form part of the questioning, so either she lies or tells the truth and embellishes it, she chose the latter.

Later on ...
Patsy states the size-12's were in JonBenet's underwear drawer and that the intruder did not bring them into the house.
Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt
1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
2 aware that these were the size of panties
3 that she was wearing, and this has been
4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
6 that?
7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
8 Q. And how did you become aware of
9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?
22 Would that have been about the size pair of
23 panties that she wore when she was six years
24 old?
25 A. I would say more like six to
0094
1 eight. There were probably some in there
2 that were too small.
3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
4 A. Not typically, no.
5 MR. KANE: Okay.
6 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you
7 understand the reason we are asking this, we
8 want to make sure that this intruder did not
9 bring these panties with him, this was
10 something --
11 A. Right.
12 Q. - that was in the house.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And we are clear that, as far as[/b]
15 you know, that is something that was in this
16 house?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- that belonged to your daughter,[/b]
19 these panties?
20 A. Correct.

She doesn't care that it makes not one lick of sense that the intruder would take the rest of the underwear - fiddle dee, don't go there buddy.
Seems this was her story. e.g. Patsy placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, JonBenet selected a pair, then the intruder decided to remove the remaining 6 pairs, except the latter bolded phrase, as we can assume Patsy certainly did not know about their removal, since it is nonsense!

So Patsy enters this interview knowing that JonBenet was found deceased wearing size-12 underwear, but not that someone else has removed the remaining size-12's from the house!

later on ...
Patsy states she helped dress JonBenet for the White's and she alone placed the longjohns onto JonBenet.
Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt
12 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Did you help
13 JonBenet get dressed for the Whites'
14 Christmas Day '96?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you do this by yourself or
17 did John help you too?
18 A. No, John did not help me.
19 Q. You told us that you changed
20 JonBenet's clothing when she came home to put
21 her in clothes to sleep?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Did John assist in that process?
24 A. He, I believe, took her coat off,
25 maybe her shoes.
0175
1 Q. Okay. As far as putting the
2 long johns on her for sleeping purposes, did
3 you do that alone?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. While you were at the Whites'
6 house, if JonBenet went to the bathroom, did
7 either you or he ever go in to help her for
8 some reason that you can recall?
9 A. I did not.
10 Q. Do you have a recollection of
11 John having to go in and help her for any
12 reason?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And under normal -- barring a
15 problem, under normal circumstances, she would
16 just go on her own?
17 A. Yes.

Another topic of questioning was Patsy's red jacket. A fiber from which was allegedly found in the paint tote, and she said she had never painted since before Christmas. What I find curious, is why was Patsy wearing a jacket at all, in a, presumably centrally heated house. Did she intend to dump JonBenet outdoors but balked at the last moment?


.
 
  • #380
Not that I recall (mentioning sibs). Any documentation on what?

any reports to read about the relationship between patsy/jonbenet/burke/john with the 1st wife and kids by john. i'm curious about the relationship dynamic between them before the murder and since.
 
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