Was Burke involved?

[vlpate]

any reports to read about the relationship between patsy/jonbenet/burke/john with the 1st wife and kids by john. i'm curious about the relationship dynamic between them before the murder and since.

From what I recall there wasn't much of one. John had an affair on Lucinda while she was pregnant with one of the children, I don't recall which one. I know the older kids had a close relationship with JonBenet and Burke.

It's always bothered me that a blanket with John Andrew's semen and a story book belonging to JonBenet, were found in that now famous suitcase in the basement.

Maybe it wasn't John who Patsy believed to have sexually abused JonBenet, maybe it was John Andrew. Either way, Patsy would have kept quiet about it as long as John kept quiet about her accidentally killing JBR IMO. Then again, the Ramsey's had a good relationship with the older kids in the years that followed the "brutal killing". Patsy and John became grandparents...whether or not Patsy was ever left alone with any of the grandchildren is something i don't know, but used to wonder about.

 

[runsdeep]

Not that I recall (mentioning sibs). Any documentation on what?

oh..and my documentation question...people think burke could have done these things to jonbenet. i dont see how a 9 year old boy would have the knowledge and strength to do them. and if a boy were exposed to that kind of behavior then it would show up elsewhere in their lives, not just one night and then no other incidents. so, are there any reports on his tendencies prior to that night and since?

 

[DeeDee249]

vlpate,
Another topic of questioning was Patsy's red jacket. A fiber from which was allegedly found in the paint tote, and she said she had never painted since before Christmas. What I find curious, is why was Patsy wearing a jacket at all, in a, presumably centrally heated house. Did she intend to dump JonBenet outdoors but balked at the last moment?


.

There has been so much confusion about that jacket that I will try to clear it up once again. Patsy's jacket was NOT an "outdoor" type of jacket. It was similar to a man's suit jacket in the sense that it was a part of an outfit intended for indoor wear. It was made of acrylic fleece, and was a red/black/gray/white pattern meant to be worn with a skirt or pants and another shirt or sweater underneath. The proper name for this kind of jacket is a "sweater-jacket" because it is a knit like a sweater, but styled like a jacket, with a button or zipper front closure.
Patsy wore this as part of her "holiday" outfit consisting of black velvet pants, red sweater and the fleece jacket over the red sweater. Her wearing the jacket had nothing to do with her intention to go outside and dump the body, which I feel she never intended.
She wore the outfit to the party (with a winter coat over it), and IMO never undressed when she got home. She claimed to never have painted wearing it, which makes sense, at it was a dressy type of jacket, not something you'd wear to paint or do chores in. The fibers from this jacket were found in three places central to the crime itself. In her paint tote, entwined into the knot on the garrote cord, and on the inside (sticky) side of the tape that had been on JB's lips. The presence of her fibers in these SPECIFIC places indicate to me that she was present at the death/staging of her daughter. Why only the red fibers were found is not known, but one reason could be that in a weave or blend where several yarns are combined to make a pattern, one color may be more prone to shedding than others. When LE questioned her about the jacket fibers, they said that the fibers were acrylic, not wool. Patsy's jacket was acrylic. Patsy's attorney LW tried to distance her from the jacket by suggesting the fibers were wool. They were not. Patsy also tried to implicate her "friend" PW by saying that PW had a similar (but not identical) jacket that Patsy admired, so she bought one too. She also tried to say that maybe she had worn the "wrong" jacket home, but of course, photos taken at the White's party indicate Patsy wore her own jacket that night. Those same photos prove JB was wearing the white shirt that night and not the red one, as Patsy tried to say at first.
The paint tote where the fibers were found was in the Butler's Pantry originally, but on the day of the R Christmas Party (Dec 23) Patsy asked her housekeeper LHP to move the paint tote to the basement because she intended to put a coat rack for her guests' coats for the party. So Patsy never even handled the tote then.
Her fibers in the tote tell me that she was the one who reached into the tote to get the paintbrush used in the garrote.

 

[runsdeep]

i have listened to the 911 call and have not heard anything that sounds like burke in the background asking a question and john stating in angry tone that they were not talking to him. where is that audio?

 

[DeeDee249]

i have listened to the 911 call and have not heard anything that sounds like burke in the background asking a question and john stating in angry tone that they were not talking to him. where is that audio?

The voices of JR and BR were heard in an "enhanced" version of the recording, which was first played years ago on the Geraldo Rivera show, I believe. I also believe that it was somehow prevented from being aired again. I do not know where it can be found today. Maybe someone else does.

 

[vlpate]

oh..and my documentation question...people think burke could have done these things to jonbenet. i dont see how a 9 year old boy would have the knowledge and strength to do them. and if a boy were exposed to that kind of behavior then it would show up elsewhere in their lives, not just one night and then no other incidents. so, are there any reports on his tendencies prior to that night and since?

I don't recall ... maybe check out acandyrose.com If it's documented, it's there!

 

[vlpate]

The voices of JR and BR were heard in an "enhanced" version of the recording, which was first played years ago on the Geraldo Rivera show, I believe. I also believe that it was somehow prevented from being aired again. I do not know where it can be found today. Maybe someone else does.

I heard it.

 

[vlpate]

vlpate,

Not quite, because that was the first thing established by the interviewer, after interruptions from LW about factual questions and references to the tabloids.

Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt

Because the tabloids splashed this information regarding the size-12's, Patsy knew prior to the interview that they were likely to form part of the questioning, so either she lies or tells the truth and embellishes it, she chose the latter.

Later on ...
Patsy states the size-12's were in JonBenet's underwear drawer and that the intruder did not bring them into the house.
Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt



Seems this was her story. e.g. Patsy placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, JonBenet selected a pair, then the intruder decided to remove the remaining 6 pairs, except the latter bolded phrase, as we can assume Patsy certainly did not know about their removal, since it is nonsense!

So Patsy enters this interview knowing that JonBenet was found deceased wearing size-12 underwear, but not that someone else has removed the remaining size-12's from the house!

later on ...
Patsy states she helped dress JonBenet for the White's and she alone placed the longjohns onto JonBenet.
Patsy's Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt


Another topic of questioning was Patsy's red jacket. A fiber from which was allegedly found in the paint tote, and she said she had never painted since before Christmas. What I find curious, is why was Patsy wearing a jacket at all, in a, presumably centrally heated house. Did she intend to dump JonBenet outdoors but balked at the last moment?


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Patsy knew they knew about the underwear, and she knew they had been removed, because either she had them in her purse when she left that day, or Pam Paugh took them out. I'm not sure how this differs from what I said?

As Dee Dee wrote, there were more than one fiber found. The fiber on the tape being the most interesting to me since the tape was left on the basement floor when John brought JBR upstairs. How no fingerprints were found on the tape is beyond me.

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy knew they knew about the underwear, and she knew they had been removed, because either she had them in her purse when she left that day, or Pam Paugh took them out. I'm not sure how this differs from what I said?

As Dee Dee wrote, there were more than one fiber found. The fiber on the tape being the most interesting to me since the tape was left on the basement floor when John brought JBR upstairs. How no fingerprints were found on the tape is beyond me.

vlpate,
I'm not certain how you can establish that as fact?

You said:

I suspect, at first, Patsy wanted the police to think the intruder brought these special panties to JonBenet...as if he had a granny pantie pedophile fetish. She felt she had to admit to buying them, when asked, because there were people who knew she bought them - did she think they'd be traced back to her while staging, heck no. She had to admit to buying them, and then to the panties being in the drawer after they figured out she bought them - she had to have put them somewhere and she couldn't claim she gave them to Jenny.
She doesn't care that it makes not one lick of sense that the intruder would take the rest of the underwear - fiddle dee, don't go there buddy.

Initially it was establised that the Bloomingdale size-12's were purchased by Patsy, and placed into JonBenet's underwear drawer by Patsy. We can establish prior to her interview that she knew that JonBenet was found deceased wearing size-12's, but not that she knew the remaining size-12's had been removed from the house.

If Patsy had known there were no size-12's anywhere in the house. I contend she would have offered a different explanation of events. As you point out her version leaves room for no interpretation other than the intruder selectively removed the remaining clean pairs of size-12's!

I'll maybe get around to doing a timeline of Patsy's responses. It might be Patsy goofed big time by trying to talk her way out trouble, and I'm rationalising her behaviour, but she was an intelligent woman, she had time to prepare her answers, she knew the question was coming, so I assume she could not have known the size-12's were missing prior to her interview.

As Dee Dee wrote, there were more than one fiber found. The fiber on the tape being the most interesting to me since the tape was left on the basement floor when John brought JBR upstairs. How no fingerprints were found on the tape is beyond me.

Yes both Patsy and John are linked to the crime-scene by the forensic evidence. Prima facie one of them killed JonBenet. Patsy if you assume it was her who applied the ligature. Prior to this JonBenet was sexually assaulted then there was the head bash, leading to the wine-cellar crime-staging.

We assume there was an accident of sorts, because we cannot comprehend a parent sexually abusing then deliberately killing their child, but given the ferocity of violence inflicted upon JonBenet. This may in fact be what happened?


.

 

[vlpate]

We assume there was an accident of sorts, because we cannot comprehend a parent sexually abusing then deliberately killing their child, but given the ferocity of violence inflicted upon JonBenet. This may in fact be what happened?


.

I can imagine a parent sexually abusing and killing their child - happens all the time. Most of the time the parents are lower class, unintelligent, and from sexually or physically abusive parents themselves - and usually with criminal records. People who are intelligent, rich, and who have reputations to uphold, don't do things like that. they may sexually abuse, and they may "accidentally" kill, but not both and then leave them to be found.

IMO, anyone who would do no more than digitally penetrate a child would not go into over-kill mode when killing her to cover it up. Makes no sense.

 

[UKGuy]

I can imagine a parent sexually abusing and killing their child - happens all the time. Most of the time the parents are lower class, unintelligent, and from sexually or physically abusive parents themselves - and usually with criminal records. People who are intelligent, rich, and who have reputations to uphold, don't do things like that. they may sexually abuse, and they may "accidentally" kill, but not both and then leave them to be found.

IMO, anyone who would do no more than digitally penetrate a child would not go into over-kill mode when killing her to cover it up. Makes no sense.

vlpate,

People who are intelligent, rich, and who have reputations to uphold, don't do things like that. they may sexually abuse, and they may "accidentally" kill, but not both and then leave them to be found.

oops, quote of the year there, seriously even intelligent people can lose it, forever what reason, e.g. lack of respect, irrationality, madness, ate etc, etc.

no more than digitally penetrate a child

My oh my, just what do think was transpiring a lets see what we can do contest?

.

 

[vlpate]

vlpate,

oops, quote of the year there, seriously even intelligent people can lose it, forever what reason, e.g. lack of respect, irrationality, madness, ate etc, etc.
'

My oh my, just what do think was transpiring a lets see what we can do contest?

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Yes, just as I wrote, even intelligent people can lose it - but they find ways to cover it up.

Not following your last question.

 

[Whaleshark]

Where do u get ur stats about rich and intelligent people do not abuse and kill? Where do u get that only poor and ignorant or 'low class' people are mainly the only ones who commit abuse or crimes? I think you'll find more power and cunning often affords people more opportunity and temptation to do or get away with things anyway...

And often it is the trusted 'higher class' or so perceived in our society who often break that trust. A pediatrician was sentenced this week to over 100 years in prison for raping his child patients, making them perform oral sex on him, and molesting patients as young as 2 years old.

The BTK serial killer was a prominent office holder in his church and strangled many people, then went home to his wife and family after committing one of his 'projects' as he put it.. Living a double life while looking like a perfectly normal upstanding citizen.

 

[vlpate]

Where do u get ur stats about rich and intelligent people do not abuse and kill? Where do u get that only poor and ignorant or 'low class' people are mainly the only ones who commit abuse or crimes? I think you'll find more power and cunning often affords people more opportunity and temptation to do or get away with things anyway...

I don't believe I gave stats, and you have totally misquoted me., please go back and read my post.

VLPate's quote: I can imagine a parent sexually abusing and killing their child - happens all the time. Most of the time the parents are lower class, unintelligent, and from sexually or physically abusive parents themselves - and usually with criminal records. People who are intelligent, rich, and who have reputations to uphold, don't do things like that. they may sexually abuse, and they may "accidentally" kill, but not both and then leave them to be found.

My main point about rich people is that they have too much to lose - money, reputation, etc., so they are smarter about their molestation.

I was not casting aspersions on all of the lower class, or even ignorant people....but the majority of children found raped and murdered lead to them. Not all, just most.

And often it is the trusted 'higher class' or so perceived in our society who often break that trust. A pediatrician was sentenced this week to over 100 years in prison for raping his child patients, making them perform oral sex on him, and molesting patients as young as 2 years old.

I am familiar with this case, but I hadn't heard he made them perform oral sex on him....just that he molested them and recorded them behind the privacy drape. I wouldn't consider this doctor "high" class in any sense of the word.

The BTK serial killer was a prominent office holder in his church and strangled many people, then went home to his wife and family after committing one of his 'projects' as he put it.. Living a double life while looking like a perfectly normal upstanding citizen.

Exactly.

Go and read some of the stories on Dreamcatchers for Children - 99% of the parents who rape and kill their children are lower class and very ignorant. Most, in fact, look inbred.

 

[DeeDee249]

It has NEVER been established that Patsy put the size 12 panties in JB's drawer. We have only her statement, and that is worthless. What HAS been established is that there were NO size 12 panties found in her drawers, nor in the house.

What is also FACT is that a tube containing the allegedly 6 remaining pairs of size 12 panties was sent to LE 5 years later. If that was the original package from which the Wednesday panties found on the body were taken, then it can be established that Patsy did NOT put the panties in the drawer as she said. Either way, the FACT that no size 12s were found pretty much rules out Patsy putting them in the drawer.

 

[vlpate]

It has NEVER been established that Patsy put the size 12 panties in JB's drawer. We have only her statement, and that is worthless. What HAS been established is that there were NO size 12 panties found in her drawers, nor in the house.

What is also FACT is that a tube containing the allegedly 6 remaining pairs of size 12 panties was sent to LE 5 years later. If that was the original package from which the Wednesday panties found on the body were taken, then it can be established that Patsy did NOT put the panties in the drawer as she said. Either way, the FACT that no size 12s were found pretty much rules out Patsy putting them in the drawer.

I've read conflicting stories on the alleged remaining size 12 panties being returned to LE. Some say 2 years later and some say 5 - all say Lin Wood returned them to LE - and all sources go back to Susan Bennet/aka Jameson. This is the first I've heard this, mainly because I don't read anything Jameson has to say unless I'm researching a rumor. My question is, why? Jameson contends that the R's found the tube of panties while unpacking their boxes. She drones on about how LE didn't find them important enough to take them from the house and investigate them. She has it from a good source, she says, that they were in receipt of the panties and were doing tests.

Hard to imagine even the most incompetent of investigators would not be looking for the size 12 day of the week panties. But Jameson has been working diligently for years, on her various blogs and encyclopedias, to drill it into the mind of lazy readers (Aphrodite Jones, for example).

Patsy put those panties on JonBenet for one reason, because JonBenet had her own Wednesday panties on at the White's party and someone helped JonBenet clean herself after going to the bathroom - and they would remember. There were pull-ups hanging out of a cabinet and JonBenet was, by ALL accounts, still having bed-wetting problems. So when Patsy says in an interview that she "didn't remember" which pair of underwear JonBenet had on when she put the long johns on her is total crap. She would have either put pull-ups on her or at the very least she would have wakened her to go to the bathroom. I've raised a couple of girls and I take care of a little girl who is in pull-ups right now - until she has potty training down, I am not about to leave her in panties to wet the bed and herself. THIS is where common sense comes in - no matter what else you may or may not believe, a mother who is going out of town at 6:00 the next morning and who is exhausted, does not want to deal with wet sheets the next morning. More importantly, why the heck would a killer even redress JonBenet, much less worry about putting panties on her?

Now to figure out why they returned the panties - were they wanting to take the Chinese factory worker off the table as the depositor of the DNA? What about JonBenet's size 4-6 day of the week panties? Where are they? Patsy said she had some. Where are the size 4-6 Wednesday, in particular.

 

[vlpate]

I don't believe I gave stats, and you have totally misquoted me., please go back and read my post.



My main point about rich people is that they have too much to lose - money, reputation, etc., so they are smarter about their molestation.

I was not casting aspersions on all of the lower class, or even ignorant people....but the majority of children found raped and murdered lead to them. Not all, just most.



I am familiar with this case, but I hadn't heard he made them perform oral sex on him....just that he molested them and recorded them behind the privacy drape. I wouldn't consider this doctor "high" class in any sense of the word.



Exactly.

Go and read some of the stories on Dreamcatchers for Children - 99% of the parents who rape and kill their children are lower class and very ignorant. Most, in fact, look inbred.

I just want to reiterate, because it bothers me that my wording might be misunderstood - I wrote nothing about "poor" people. My use of the words "lower class" meant just that, lower class - low class. I know rich people who are low class and I know poor people with more class than some of the richest people in the world. It's just that the rich lower class either don't get caught or they cover up their crime by lawyering up and paying the powers that be, off.

 

[UKGuy]

It has NEVER been established that Patsy put the size 12 panties in JB's drawer. We have only her statement, and that is worthless. What HAS been established is that there were NO size 12 panties found in her drawers, nor in the house.

What is also FACT is that a tube containing the allegedly 6 remaining pairs of size 12 panties was sent to LE 5 years later. If that was the original package from which the Wednesday panties found on the body were taken, then it can be established that Patsy did NOT put the panties in the drawer as she said. Either way, the FACT that no size 12s were found pretty much rules out Patsy putting them in the drawer.

DeeDee249,
Good points! So the dumb question is why did she say she did put them in JonBenet's underwear drawer?

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[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Good points! So the dumb question is why did she say she did put them in JonBenet's underwear drawer?

.

There are no dumb questions.

Who knows what prompted Patsy to give any of the answers she did? I feel she said it because the alternative- that they were taken out of a wrapped gift box in the basement- points to RE-dressing the body rather than JB putting them on herself that day. And if whoever RE-dressed the body did, in fact, take them from a wrapped gift box, then THAT act presumes someone had to know they were there. Not only unlikely, but impossible for a member of a SFF intruder/kidnapper to know.
That police could not actually FIND any size 12 panties in her drawer was not Patsy's problem, she (or her attorneys) could always argue that it wasn't HER fault LE didn't see them.
What I find telling is that the Rs sending them along so many years later still in the package obviously proves that they were never put in the drawer in the first place, yet Patsy never offered any explanation about how they came to be still in the tube after they were supposed to be in the drawer. Nor did LE ever ask for that explanation. Another ball dropped. Dropped from a mile up, I'd say.
We also do not know exactly how the house was packed up for the move to Atlanta, or by whom. The Rs were said to have never set foot back in the house again. Patsy's sister was there, as we all know. But after the house was released back to the family (too soon, IMO) it was "sold" to a group of family friends and investors (and some of these MAY have been their attorneys) and completely whitewashed. Literally. Emptied of everything, wallpaper stripped, all walls painted white, all carpets pulled up. The WC was walled up at some point, but we don't know exactly when. If any forensic evidence was on any walls or carpets to be found, that pretty much eliminated it. The bed gone, rugs gone, gone were the urine stained carpets, belying where she may have died. Gone were any blood splatters on any walls or floors.

 

[UKGuy]

There are no dumb questions.

Who knows what prompted Patsy to give any of the answers she did? I feel she said it because the alternative- that they were taken out of a wrapped gift box in the basement- points to RE-dressing the body rather than JB putting them on herself that day. And if whoever RE-dressed the body did, in fact, take them from a wrapped gift box, then THAT act presumes someone had to know they were there. Not only unlikely, but impossible for a member of a SFF intruder/kidnapper to know.
That police could not actually FIND any size 12 panties in her drawer was not Patsy's problem, she (or her attorneys) could always argue that it wasn't HER fault LE didn't see them.
What I find telling is that the Rs sending them along so many years later still in the package obviously proves that they were never put in the drawer in the first place, yet Patsy never offered any explanation about how they came to be still in the tube after they were supposed to be in the drawer. Nor did LE ever ask for that explanation. Another ball dropped. Dropped from a mile up, I'd say.
We also do not know exactly how the house was packed up for the move to Atlanta, or by whom. The Rs were said to have never set foot back in the house again. Patsy's sister was there, as we all know. But after the house was released back to the family (too soon, IMO) it was "sold" to a group of family friends and investors (and some of these MAY have been their attorneys) and completely whitewashed. Literally. Emptied of everything, wallpaper stripped, all walls painted white, all carpets pulled up. The WC was walled up at some point, but we don't know exactly when. If any forensic evidence was on any walls or carpets to be found, that pretty much eliminated it. The bed gone, rugs gone, gone were the urine stained carpets, belying where she may have died. Gone were any blood splatters on any walls or floors.

DeeDee249,

Nor did LE ever ask for that explanation. Another ball dropped. Dropped from a mile up, I'd say.

Yes another DA disregard.

it was "sold" to a group of family friends and investors (and some of these MAY have been their attorneys) and completely whitewashed.

Yes, a corporate solution, can you guess who's idea this was?

The intelligent question must be why send the remaining size-12's back, surely this reveals the Ramsey's strategy?


.