Was Burke involved?

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

I disagree, the best place for the staging to start would be the primary crime-scene.


I agree the evidence seems to support this.


Well the blood can be tested against samples from her nose etc. Or the stain on the nightgown, we know they did the dna analysis.


Could have happened as you outline, or maybe she had already been strangled prior to having the paintbrush handle applied, and the latter is deliberate staging? Until I see evidence to the contrary, I'll assume that the garrote is staging to mask a prior strangulation.

Just about everything on JonBenet's person has been staged, so why should the garrote be different? In the sequence of events the garrote is close to the last, so looks like a last minute decision.


Certainly looks that way. They had approximately 5-hours to effect the staging, yet messed it up big time with those size-12's.

Testing the blood on her pillowcase and nightie isn't the same as examining the PATTERN of the blood. It proves nothing to test it against her nose. It probably did come from there, as "tan mucous" was found there. There was also "tan mucous" on the right sleeve of her white Gap shirt, indicating she was wearing it when that mucous dripped from her nose. There was also a vomit smear on her cheek, which I do not recall wether that was bloody as well. Swabs of her cheek and nose should have been taken. They would indicate the presence of blood. It wasn't a none bleed in the sense of a true nose bleed that happens when a blood vessel bursts or something like that, which happens when people get nosebleeds. In JB's case, the blood that mixed with the mucous (making it "tan"- blood turns brownish when exposed to air) came from the head bash and possibly the strangulation.

As far as Patsy's concern over JB's arms- there was nothing to indicate that anyone pulled up JB's sleeves until the coroner removed her shirt. In the crime scene photos showing JB lying on the living room rug, arms bent at the elbow and arms in brown paper bags (according to protocol), her sleeves are covering her arm.
Patsy was possibly worried about her appearance in the coffin, dressed in a pageant dress, which usually have short sleeves.

 

[azwriter]

Testing the blood on her pillowcase and nightie isn't the same as examining the PATTERN of the blood. It proves nothing to test it against her nose. It probably did come from there, as "tan mucous" was found there. There was also "tan mucous" on the right sleeve of her white Gap shirt, indicating she was wearing it when that mucous dripped from her nose. There was also a vomit smear on her cheek, which I do not recall wether that was bloody as well. Swabs of her cheek and nose should have been taken. They would indicate the presence of blood. It wasn't a none bleed in the sense of a true nose bleed that happens when a blood vessel bursts or something like that, which happens when people get nosebleeds. In JB's case, the blood that mixed with the mucous (making it "tan"- blood turns brownish when exposed to air) came from the head bash and possibly the strangulation.

As far as Patsy's concern over JB's arms- there was nothing to indicate that anyone pulled up JB's sleeves until the coroner removed her shirt. In the crime scene photos showing JB lying on the living room rug, arms bent at the elbow and arms in brown paper bags (according to protocol), her sleeves are covering her arm.
Patsy was possibly worried about her appearance in the coffin, dressed in a pageant dress, which usually have short sleeves.

Dee Dee, I'm beginning to sound like a broken record agreeing with you so often concerning this case. But I believe Patsy would worry about how her daughter appreared in her coffin.

I have heard from a few other moms whose daughters did pageants and it was common if your child had a bruise of any size on her arms, a pretty ribbon would be tied around it to match the dress or costume in order to cover the bruise.

I might be guessing, but I recall a pageant photo JonBenet in full costume with such a wrap around her upper arm.

I'm sure now a days, bruises or anything that might spoil the look of the child is covered with make-up or these tanning session it seems they all go through.

Most certainly, Patsy, forever the beauty queen, would be concerned about her daughter's appearance dead or alive.

Just My O

 

[UKGuy]

Testing the blood on her pillowcase and nightie isn't the same as examining the PATTERN of the blood. It proves nothing to test it against her nose. It probably did come from there, as "tan mucous" was found there. There was also "tan mucous" on the right sleeve of her white Gap shirt, indicating she was wearing it when that mucous dripped from her nose. There was also a vomit smear on her cheek, which I do not recall wether that was bloody as well. Swabs of her cheek and nose should have been taken. They would indicate the presence of blood. It wasn't a none bleed in the sense of a true nose bleed that happens when a blood vessel bursts or something like that, which happens when people get nosebleeds. In JB's case, the blood that mixed with the mucous (making it "tan"- blood turns brownish when exposed to air) came from the head bash and possibly the strangulation.

As far as Patsy's concern over JB's arms- there was nothing to indicate that anyone pulled up JB's sleeves until the coroner removed her shirt. In the crime scene photos showing JB lying on the living room rug, arms bent at the elbow and arms in brown paper bags (according to protocol), her sleeves are covering her arm.
Patsy was possibly worried about her appearance in the coffin, dressed in a pageant dress, which usually have short sleeves.

DeeDee249,

Testing the blood on her pillowcase and nightie isn't the same as examining the PATTERN of the blood.

mmm, are you suggesting JonBenet's injuries were more extensive than made public?

It proves nothing to test it against her nose.

Of course it does, blood from the same source will be identified. Blood from the liver is not the same as blood from the heart. So blood from her head injury should match against that from her pillow, unless its origin is internal?

There was also "tan mucous" on the right sleeve of her white Gap shirt, indicating she was wearing it when that mucous dripped from her nose. There was also a vomit smear on her cheek,

Which does not advance us very far since this can support staging either upstairs or down.

If it can be demonstrated that the blood on JonBenet's pillow was as a result of an injury that night/morning, then although it could never prove the R's guilt. It can show that JonBenet was lying in her bed, not a controversial claim, since the R's say she was abducted from her bed. The difference of course being she was injured, suggesting either staging or this was the primary crime-scene?


.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Dee Dee, I'm beginning to sound like a broken record agreeing with you so often concerning this case. But I believe Patsy would worry about how her daughter appreared in her coffin.

I have heard from a few other moms whose daughters did pageants and it was common if your child had a bruise of any size on her arms, a pretty ribbon would be tied around it to match the dress or costume in order to cover the bruise.

I might be guessing, but I recall a pageant photo JonBenet in full costume with such a wrap around her upper arm.

I'm sure now a days, bruises or anything that might spoil the look of the child is covered with make-up or these tanning session it seems they all go through.

Most certainly, Patsy, forever the beauty queen, would be concerned about her daughter's appearance dead or alive.

Just My O

In the video of Jon Benet singing God Bless America there is a old bruise on inside of her right arm.

I noticed it the first time I watched the lost video and thought it was in an odd place for a child to have a bruise, but not if someone had grabbed her by the arm....just saying.

Maybe someone held JB up by her arms while another pulled the long johns up and Pasty was thinking of possible bruises. JonBenet would of been dead weight and I don't think one person could of dressed her alone.

ILTBP

 

[DeeDee249]

In the video of Jon Benet singing God Bless America there is a old bruise on inside of her right arm.

I noticed it the first time I watched the lost video and thought it was in an odd place for a child to have a bruise, but not if someone had grabbed her by the arm....just saying.

Maybe someone held JB up by her arms while another pulled the long johns up and Pasty was thinking of possible bruises. JonBenet would of been dead weight and I don't think one person could of dressed her alone.

ILTBP

She was probably dressed while lying down. You wouldn't really have to hold her up to do it. Dead bodies don't bruise, so any bruising on her arms would have been caused while she was alive. But that would certainly be a reason why Patsy would be concerned about anyone seeing bruising on her arms. Possibly she shook her or grabbed her, but if she did, it did not leave a mark or bruise. None was found on her arms at the autopsy. The only other bruise (other than the vaginal bruising) was a fairly large bruise on the back of her right shoulder. It can be seen in one of the autopsy photos. To me, it looks like the exact place a knee would have pressed if someone was making/tightening the garrote at the back of her neck.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

John is "only" 68 years old so we could have 20 years before he passes away. By that point, Burke will be 45 but I don't think he will wait that long to speak out. However, I think that Burke will always promote the IDI theory. I just can't get behind the prediction that once John dies, we'll see Burke on CNN telling us what really happened. I am looking at it through his perspective: He might see JonBenet's death as an accident. It wasn't supposed to happen. His parents made a mistake. They never abused him. They never laid a hand on him. He had 18 years with his mom, and 25+ years with his dad. He only knew JonBenet for 6 years. Why betray his parents? The media haunted them down like they were two child murderers when it was all an accident.

 

[UKGuy]

John is "only" 68 years old so we could have 20 years before he passes away. By that point, Burke will be 45 but I don't think he will wait that long to speak out. However, I think that Burke will always promote the IDI theory. I just can't get behind the prediction that once John dies, we'll see Burke on CNN telling us what really happened. I am looking at it through his perspective: He might see JonBenet's death as an accident. It wasn't supposed to happen. His parents made a mistake. They never abused him. They never laid a hand on him. He had 18 years with his mom, and 25+ years with his dad. He only knew JonBenet for 6 years. Why betray his parents? The media haunted them down like they were two child murderers when it was all an accident.

eileenhawkeye,
John Ramsey is in poor health. His cardiac response looks pretty well deteriorated to me. He will be luck to see beyond 72, do not forget you start to get natural organ failure about 68 onwards, the various cancers particular to men are prominent. But its cardiac failure and brain function deterioration caused by strokes that do most damage.

However, I think that Burke will always promote the IDI theory.

This is my point. If the status quo remains then BR need say nothing. But if there is a flurry of crime documentaries, with witnesses willing to talk publicly, once JR has passed on, then its a new ball-game, and Burke to promote his IDI might be forced to reveal information currently only available to either LEA or Team Ramsey?

What if Fleet White decides to talk because he reckons there will never be a trial, so he wants his version of events on public record, consider Holly Smith or Steve Thomas thinking similar. That day will come eventually.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

eileenhawkeye,
do not forget you start to get natural organ failure about 68 onwards, the various cancers particular to men are prominent.

.

Thanks a lot! So, um, should I start digging that hole?

Oh, wait- I plan to be just as annoying from the Other Side as I am here, so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Alix]

Thanks a lot! So, um, should I start digging that hole?

Oh, wait- I plan to be just as annoying from the Other Side as I am here, so it doesn't really matter.

Feisty, as always!:floorlaugh:

My father is well into his 70s, started having the first of his five heart attacks(and three heart surgeries) over 20 years ago, plus he's had cancer and a stroke, and he is still causing trouble!!!

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks a lot! So, um, should I start digging that hole?

Oh, wait- I plan to be just as annoying from the Other Side as I am here, so it doesn't really matter.

DeeDee249,

Thanks a lot! So, um, should I start digging that hole?

I'm sure you know the statistics for women are different and more optimistic. Check Davy Jones from The Monkees, already gone only 66, reported as cardiovascular failure e.g. heart attack!

Oh, wait- I plan to be just as annoying from the Other Side as I am here, so it doesn't really matter.

Depends if you await the rapture and being reborn on earth?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

I'm sure you know the statistics for women are different and more optimistic. Check Davy Jones from The Monkees, already gone only 66, reported as cardiovascular failure e.g. heart attack!


Depends if you await the rapture and being reborn on earth?


.

Nah- who wants to come back HERE? I'd rather stay over there and materialize in a taller, thinner (albeit astral) body. The potential to annoy is so much greater when you are not restricted by a physical form.

 

[UKGuy]

Nah- who wants to come back HERE? I'd rather stay over there and materialize in a taller, thinner (albeit astral) body. The potential to annoy is so much greater when you are not restricted by a physical form.

DeeDee249,
Well on resurrection and rapture I've never been certain if it was just your soul that was revived or your whole body. If you are happy with an astral or etheric form so be it. Do you believe in Theosophy?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Well on resurrection and rapture I've never been certain if it was just your soul that was revived or your whole body. If you are happy with an astral or etheric form so be it. Do you believe in Theosophy?


.

Yes, I suppose. I love the quest for knowledge, especially that which is unknowable. Can't wait to find out what is true and what is not. I'll come back and let y'all know, K?
I also believe in Ancient Alien theories (read "Chariots of the Gods), alien abductions and the Loch Ness monster (really a Tulpa- look it up).

 

[eileenhawkeye]

eileenhawkeye,
John Ramsey is in poor health. His cardiac response looks pretty well deteriorated to me. He will be luck to see beyond 72, do not forget you start to get natural organ failure about 68 onwards, the various cancers particular to men are prominent. But its cardiac failure and brain function deterioration caused by strokes that do most damage.


This is my point. If the status quo remains then BR need say nothing. But if there is a flurry of crime documentaries, with witnesses willing to talk publicly, once JR has passed on, then its a new ball-game, and Burke to promote his IDI might be forced to reveal information currently only available to either LEA or Team Ramsey?

What if Fleet White decides to talk because he reckons there will never be a trial, so he wants his version of events on public record, consider Holly Smith or Steve Thomas thinking similar. That day will come eventually.


.

What proof do you have that John Ramsey is in poor health? And how do you know his cardiac response? :waitasec: You're right that anything could happen to him but I think saying that he won't live past 72 is making a wild prediction. Patsy died 12 years after being diagnosed with Stage 4 Ovarian Cancer. And as far as I know, John doesn't have a terminal illness, hasn't had a heart attack, or a stroke, etc. Yes, he's old and he could have one of those, but he hasn't. It's correct that certain cancers are more prevalent in men over a certain age but until a man is diagnosed with one of them, it's not relevant to how long he is going to live.

The idea that John Ramsey will be dead in less than 4 years and then crucial witnesses like Burke and Fleet White will be all over TV telling us the truth about what happened that night sounds too good to be true. I'll believe it when I see it, but it sounds like a wishful fantasy.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, I suppose. I love the quest for knowledge, especially that which is unknowable. Can't wait to find out what is true and what is not. I'll come back and let y'all know, K?
I also believe in Ancient Alien theories (read "Chariots of the Gods), alien abductions and the Loch Ness monster (really a Tulpa- look it up).

DeeDee249,
I guess you can never know enough. The History Channel has a series running on Ancient Aliens saying there is 75 million years of credible alien evidence here on Earth.

Years ago I watched a few documentaries on Chariots of the Gods including a biography of von-daniken, outlining his court appearances etc, he was raised a catholic.

The Loch Ness Monster is a Tulpa, really, here was me thinking it was a fictional tourist attraction, lol.

Tulpa seems like variant of eastern-mysticism where there are no gods just symbols, or devas, pointing to the eternal mystery. The emphasis on cycle, return, spiritual rebirth etc, are indicative of the ancient goddess religions based largely on vegetation, see Demeter. Do you think it seems a more feminine, intuitive belief, than say Zeus with a beard punishing his detractors?


.


.

 

[UKGuy]

What proof do you have that John Ramsey is in poor health? And how do you know his cardiac response? :waitasec: You're right that anything could happen to him but I think saying that he won't live past 72 is making a wild prediction. Patsy died 12 years after being diagnosed with Stage 4 Ovarian Cancer. And as far as I know, John doesn't have a terminal illness, hasn't had a heart attack, or a stroke, etc. Yes, he's old and he could have one of those, but he hasn't. It's correct that certain cancers are more prevalent in men over a certain age but until a man is diagnosed with one of them, it's not relevant to how long he is going to live.

The idea that John Ramsey will be dead in less than 4 years and then crucial witnesses like Burke and Fleet White will be all over TV telling us the truth about what happened that night sounds too good to be true. I'll believe it when I see it, but it sounds like a wishful fantasy.

eileenhawkeye,

but it sounds like a wishful fantasy.

Well lets wait and see. Check your history on other unsolved cases and you will find this is normally how they progess.

Consider the The Black Dahlia murder there is more information available now than then. Or the Zodiac killer where the stepson of a man named Jack Tarrance, claimed that his stepfather was the Zodiac Killer.

Consider Dr. Samuel Holmes Sheppard AKA The Fugitive, again more evidence is available now than then. This it was alleged was a staged homicide.

I reckon similar will happen with the JonBenet case, you will have new documentaries with pundits offering theories backed up by new witness statements.

Once John Ramsey passes on the threat of litigation more or less vanishes.



.
.

 

[DeeDee249]

Not really, LW is BR's attorney, too. Anyone attempting to probe him for more info will face the same threat.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
I guess you can never know enough. The History Channel has a series running on Ancient Aliens saying there is 75 million years of credible alien evidence here on Earth.

Years ago I watched a few documentaries on Chariots of the Gods including a biography of von-daniken, outlining his court appearances etc, he was raised a catholic.

The Loch Ness Monster is a Tulpa, really, here was me thinking it was a fictional tourist attraction, lol.

Tulpa seems like variant of eastern-mysticism where there are no gods just symbols, or devas, pointing to the eternal mystery. The emphasis on cycle, return, spiritual rebirth etc, are indicative of the ancient goddess religions based largely on vegetation, see Demeter. Do you think it seems a more feminine, intuitive belief, than say Zeus with a beard punishing his detractors?

.

Not exclusively feminine, though I believe women with their feminine sensibilities, may be more sensitive and accepting of the metaphysical. Men are logical by nature (in general). All the patriarchal faiths have always tried to suppress women, especially powerful women. This is still true today. Seen any female Popes lately?

 

[UKGuy]

Not exclusively feminine, though I believe women with their feminine sensibilities, may be more sensitive and accepting of the metaphysical. Men are logical by nature (in general). All the patriarchal faiths have always tried to suppress women, especially powerful women. This is still true today. Seen any female Popes lately?

DeeDee249,

Seen any female Popes lately?

No, not unless you count Pope Joan in.

All the patriarchal faiths have always tried to suppress women,

Some more than others. Consider Judaism, no female deva, Catholicism offers the Virgin Mary, even black ones, some say based on Isis. A female friend once remarked to me, why are all these priests dressed up in frocks and lace, inhaling incense, ringing bells, drinking wine and chanting? She suggested they were mimicking ancient female religious rites.

.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

eileenhawkeye,

Well lets wait and see. Check your history on other unsolved cases and you will find this is normally how they progess.

Consider the The Black Dahlia murder there is more information available now than then. Or the Zodiac killer where the stepson of a man named Jack Tarrance, claimed that his stepfather was the Zodiac Killer.

Consider Dr. Samuel Holmes Sheppard AKA The Fugitive, again more evidence is available now than then. This it was alleged was a staged homicide.

I reckon similar will happen with the JonBenet case, you will have new documentaries with pundits offering theories backed up by new witness statements.

Once John Ramsey passes on the threat of litigation more or less vanishes.



.
.

But those cases are decades old and they are still mysteries. Your post said you think John will be dead by 72, and then Burke will speak out. Burke knows exactly what happened in that house. You're making it sound like we will know the truth about this case in a few years.