Was Burke involved?

[Darlene733510]

Was the boy that usually came in and used the basement bathroom there that night? Do we know if his parents were friends of the R's, and were they at the party the night of the phone call? If I remember correctly, wasn't his name Evan? Was he older than Burke? If they were good friends maybe there were some instances of sexual advances toward JBR previously where the weather may have been too bad to play outside, so they go indoors
to Burke's room and little Sister was invited to join them. I bet they didn't get his DNA

 

[deca]

delete. made dumb newbie timeline error

 

[DeeDee249]

delete. made dumb newbie timeline error

Not necessarily. He could have been picked up at the last stop, or his parents could even have dropped him off. That kind of thing may not have been noticed by neighbors- visitors may have been coming and going all evening because of the holiday.

 

[deca]

Not necessarily. He could have been picked up at the last stop, or his parents could even have dropped him off. That kind of thing may not have been noticed by neighbors- visitors may have been coming and going all evening because of the holiday.

Whoops, I guess I should explain what I deleted for everyone since you replied to it before it went *poof*

Basically, I said wouldn't someone that night have seen/heard of the friend leaving to go with the Ramsey's? Especially because they were going on a big trip the next day you would think everyone would be talking about it.

Someone here or on another thread said that the last stop was at the Stine's, so that might explain why no one had known of son going with Ramsey's.

 

[midwest mama]

I too strongly suspect the involvement of others (outside of the immediate R family) in the death of JBR. I am interested in hearing your theories in more detail about the fundemental/secret relationship between the Stines and the Ramseys. I have already hinted in other posts what I think the relationship may be, but I am always interested in hearing other opinions. And let me just add that whenever someone starts looking outside of the immediate R family it gets me very interested, because I have always thought that the solution lies there. Those who only focus on the R's are missing a major peice of the picture. I am not saying the R's were not involved but I am saying they were not the only ones involved, IMO. Some of these other people they knew were also involved in some way. This case is not what it appears to be from the surface.

IIRC, I read recently that only about 10% of the evidence in this case has been released to the public. And we all spend so much time and effort trying to work with it. Imagine the avenues that might still be worth going down.

For instance, if Burke did truly have Asperger's syndrome, could he have been easily manipulated by a boy a few years older? Burke might have been an easy target for a bully type who wanted access to Burke's playthings, his sister, or even Burke himself!

 

[midwest mama]

Was the boy that usually came in and used the basement bathroom there that night? Do we know if his parents were friends of the R's, and were they at the party the night of the phone call? If I remember correctly, wasn't his name Evan? Was he older than Burke? If they were good friends maybe there were some instances of sexual advances toward JBR previously where the weather may have been too bad to play outside, so they go indoors
to Burke's room and little Sister was invited to join them. I bet they didn't get his DNA

Don't know about the last name of the Ramsey neighbors you are looking for, but do remember JR talking about "Evan" possibly using the basement bathroom, even though the toilet was supposedly broken.

Here is a list of the party guests:

The Guest List for the Ramsey's Christmas party Dec. 23, 1996, 5pm-8pm
* John and Patsy Ramsey, Burke (9), JonBenét (6)
* Don Paugh (Patsy's father)
* Fleet and Priscilla White, daughter Daphne (5-6), son Fleet (7-8)
* Mr. & Mrs. R.A. Brown (Priscilla's parents)
* Cliff Gaston, boyfriend of Priscilla's sister, Allison Shoeny (attended alone, without his
girlfriend) Visiting the Whites - from California
* Bill Cox, husband of Priscilla's niece Heather. (attended alone, without his wife) Visiting the Whites - from California
* John and Barbara Fernie, son (10), daughter (14-15?)
* Friend of the Fernies - male (about 9)
* Glen and Susan Stine, son Doug (9)
* Susan Stine's mother
* Glen Stine's mother
* Larry and Pinkie Barber, two daughters (8 and 6)
* Joe and Betty Barnhill
* The Barnhill's boarder, Glenn Meyer, was not invited. He went to the house to tell the Barnhills something about the dog barking and was invited to join the party. He did for a short time.
* Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, her daughter, Ariana (12)
* Bill and Janet McReynolds (Santa)

bbm

Notice, the Stines were in attendance at that party. But the Stines did not attend the party on Christmas day at the Whites. Remember, FW said he miss-dialed the 911 call on the 23rd, and Susan Stine was at the door to fend off police officers when they showed up at the R's house.

JB was observed sitting on a staircase, saying "I don't feel pretty."

Why didn't JR or Patsy or their housekeeper answer the door to respond to the police? Does anyone remember if there were any statements made by any one of these three about knowing about the call incidence when it happened on the 23rd? Or were the R's not aware of this call until a later time?

 

[UKGuy]

Don't know about the last name of the Ramsey neighbors you are looking for, but do remember JR talking about "Evan" possibly using the basement bathroom, even though the toilet was supposedly broken.

Here is a list of the party guests:

The Guest List for the Ramsey's Christmas party Dec. 23, 1996, 5pm-8pm
* John and Patsy Ramsey, Burke (9), JonBenét (6)
* Don Paugh (Patsy's father)
* Fleet and Priscilla White, daughter Daphne (5-6), son Fleet (7-8)
* Mr. & Mrs. R.A. Brown (Priscilla's parents)
* Cliff Gaston, boyfriend of Priscilla's sister, Allison Shoeny (attended alone, without his
girlfriend) Visiting the Whites - from California
* Bill Cox, husband of Priscilla's niece Heather. (attended alone, without his wife) Visiting the Whites - from California
* John and Barbara Fernie, son (10), daughter (14-15?)
* Friend of the Fernies - male (about 9)
* Glen and Susan Stine, son Doug (9)
* Susan Stine's mother
* Glen Stine's mother
* Larry and Pinkie Barber, two daughters (8 and 6)
* Joe and Betty Barnhill
* The Barnhill's boarder, Glenn Meyer, was not invited. He went to the house to tell the Barnhills something about the dog barking and was invited to join the party. He did for a short time.
* Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, her daughter, Ariana (12)
* Bill and Janet McReynolds (Santa)

bbm

Notice, the Stines were in attendance at that party. But the Stines did not attend the party on Christmas day at the Whites. Remember, FW said he miss-dialed the 911 call on the 23rd, and Susan Stine was at the door to fend off police officers when they showed up at the R's house.

JB was observed sitting on a staircase, saying "I don't feel pretty."

Why didn't JR or Patsy or their housekeeper answer the door to respond to the police? Does anyone remember if there were any statements made by any one of these three about knowing about the call incidence when it happened on the 23rd? Or were the R's not aware of this call until a later time?

midwest mama,
After whatever took place at the Ramsey Christmas Party, its no surprise that the Stines are persona non grata.


.

 

[ahoyhoy]

JB was observed sitting on a staircase, saying "I don't feel pretty."

(snipped)

I have always thought that JB was chronically molested by relatives, and of course that could lead to her 'flirting' inappropriately for attention/acceptance from strangers. This is going to sound sick, but if it was a 'loving' experience in the home, a stranger/non-relative taking liberties in a course way, or forced instead of 'nicely' coerced (like a parent would), could make her feel 'not pretty' afterwards. Aka 'dirty'--The number one reaction of rape victims--feeling dirty.
That quote, with the 911 call, always prejudiced me to believe JB was attacked not by family at the party. But with the BR evidence that's come to light, makes me wonder.
As I said, I do think both R kids were abused. But I think JB not only replaced BR in Patsy's focus, but also in JR's. So IMO, JB could have been subjected to 'gentle', coerced abuse by older relatives, but JB could also have been systematically victimized by BR (and maybe friend/s), BUT in a control/dominance/rage way. (With this theory, I'm suggesting that the 'poke' JB suffered that night may not have been staging, as I thought for so long, it may have been a rough game of doctor).

The fact that he was so cold with the investigator, 'getting on with his life', his reaction to a lookalike at Disney (?)--- All sounds like a kid who is not unhappy about his attention-magnet sister being gone.

But I think the complicated cover-up, plus JR's interest in pageant types, plus the chronic abuse of JB (plus so much else)---I think that all points to more than just covering for a troubled, jealous 9-year old.

The Stine idea is FASCINATING, btw. A perfect explanation for their entire post-'96 lives together, the celebratory attitude----If they believed they had 'saved their sons' together, from an 'accident' it makes perfect sense (the Stines wouldn't have to know about JR's or Br's chronic abuse of JB, in this scenario).
Also, keeping the Stines very close, helps everyone feel more secure that no one is getting a conscience.

JMO JMO thanks.

 

[OneLove]

So is one of the speculative scenarios that the young Stine son who was friends with BR was caught abusing JBR, then FW called 911, then Mrs Stine along with one of the Ramsey parents argued against this course of action for several obvious reasons, then BR attempted a copycat sexual assault on JBR, who then died, and then the senior Ramsey's both covered up the act, then the Stines and Ramsey's circled wagons so to speak, only Patsy's public remarks distancing herself emotionally from the Stines revealed her disdain and deep passive aggressive anger towards Mrs. Stine?
(Longest single run-on sentence in my posting history )

Then they tightened the wagons even more by having Mr. Stine's employment and thereby the family's security dependent on the "goodwill" of JR?

 

[deca]

So is one of the speculative scenarios that the young Stine son who was friends with BR was caught abusing JBR, then FW called 911, then Mrs Stine along with one of the Ramsey parents argued against this course of action for several obvious reasons, then BR attempted a copycat sexual assault on JBR, who then died, and then the senior Ramsey's both covered up the act, then the Stines and Ramsey's circled wagons so to speak, only Patsy's public remarks distancing herself emotionally from the Stines revealed her disdain and deep passive aggressive anger towards Mrs. Stine?
(Longest single run-on sentence in my posting history )

Then they tightened the wagons even more by having Mr. Stine's employment and thereby the family's security dependent on the "goodwill" of JR?

That seems like a plausible scenario. I just don't get why the White's would ever be quiet about any of this. I just don't.

Also, since kids younger than 10 are protected and names have to be redacted/out of the press, why wouldn't Stines tell LE what they know of the situation? Their kid molesting (which they can play off as "playing doctor") is no where near as bad as murder, plus his name would never come out.

Lastly, lets consider that both Stine's son and BR are budding molesters. As a parent, wouldn't you immediately try to try to get help for your son AND get them away from any bad influences? If I caught my kid doing drugs, I would immediately try to fix him and get him help AND get him away from his drug buddy. JMO Maybe these people are just really sick.

 

[ahoyhoy]

That seems like a plausible scenario. I just don't get why the White's would ever be quiet about any of this. I just don't.

Also, since kids younger than 10 are protected and names have to be redacted/out of the press, why wouldn't Stines tell LE what they know of the situation? Their kid molesting (which they can play off as "playing doctor") is no where near as bad as murder, plus his name would never come out.

Lastly, lets consider that both Stine's son and BR are budding molesters. As a parent, wouldn't you immediately try to try to get help for your son AND get them away from any bad influences? If I caught my kid doing drugs, I would immediately try to fix him and get him help AND get him away from his drug buddy. JMO Maybe these people are just really sick.

FW, was very troubled afterward though....Just an idea...Maybe not ruining the lives of a boy (or two) could keep his mouth shut? Plus, he may have been spoken to by JR, convinced everything was okay, or a misunderstanding at the Christmas party, then JB dies 2 days later---FW wants to spill his beans, but might think he'd ruin the boys, not legally but definitely reputation-wise?



Also---During the commotion following JB's murder, I seriously doubt the R's already knew the law about their son being too young. The coverup began and basically had to continue.....probably IMO, because of the chronic abuse.


IF this all started with BR & the Stine kid 'playing' w/ JB together that night---maybe the Stines convinced themselves it was just that--playing? Easier than admitting your kid might be becoming a sadistic rapist, KWIM?

 

[ahoyhoy]

Btw, I'm not totally convinced BR was involved. I'm just thinking aloud, following the theory that B might have been abusing his sister (too?).

Edit: I'm also operating under the notion that the Stine's motivation would be to cover up an 'accident', and wouldn't necessarily know about or 'believe in' any chronic molestation. That is, they could have had the simplest, fairly innocent motivation for a coverup w/ the R's afterward--Their son, and their friends' son.

 

[DeeDee249]

That seems like a plausible scenario. I just don't get why the White's would ever be quiet about any of this. I just don't.

Also, since kids younger than 10 are protected and names have to be redacted/out of the press, why wouldn't Stines tell LE what they know of the situation? Their kid molesting (which they can play off as "playing doctor") is no where near as bad as murder, plus his name would never come out.

Lastly, lets consider that both Stine's son and BR are budding molesters. As a parent, wouldn't you immediately try to try to get help for your son AND get them away from any bad influences? If I caught my kid doing drugs, I would immediately try to fix him and get him help AND get him away from his drug buddy. JMO Maybe these people are just really sick.

BR's medical records were sealed- his parents may very well have discussed his behavior with his doctor- and that is why they refused access to his records (and it is also why the DA refused to get a warrant for them).
These are people who did not want to be associated with this crime in any way. There would be no "treatment" sought for their son(s). This was a one-time horrific event involving a specific little girl, and the parents did not look at this as behavior that would be ongoing. Get it behind them, get away with it at all costs. And don't look back. Ever.

FW, like all who surmise the truth, would be silenced by the threat of expensive lawsuits and more important, by the threat of having the finger pointed at HIM and his wife. The Rs tried to cast suspicions on them right from the start- telling police that they thought it strange that PW offered to keep a plate of crab aside for JB because she liked it. They DIDN'T tell police it was the Rs themselves who asked her to do that.
Patsy also made a big deal of telling police that PW had a fleece jacket just like hers. Add that to FW unfortunate handling of the duct tape that JB had had on her mouth and moving the suitcase in the basement, and we have a general idea why the Ws have kept quiet about that night. After all, even if they suspect what happened, they were not eyewitnesses to her death and cannot prove what happened.

 

[midwest mama]

So is one of the speculative scenarios that the young Stine son who was friends with BR was caught abusing JBR, then FW called 911, then Mrs Stine along with one of the Ramsey parents argued against this course of action for several obvious reasons, then BR attempted a copycat sexual assault on JBR, who then died, and then the senior Ramsey's both covered up the act, then the Stines and Ramsey's circled wagons so to speak, only Patsy's public remarks distancing herself emotionally from the Stines revealed her disdain and deep passive aggressive anger towards Mrs. Stine?
(Longest single run-on sentence in my posting history )

Then they tightened the wagons even more by having Mr. Stine's employment and thereby the family's security dependent on the "goodwill" of JR?

OneLove - :goodpost:

A thought about FW taking the fall for making the call -
His kids were also at the party. Is it possible his son was involved, perhaps as a bystander. JB's friend, Daphne (Fleet's daughter) might have freaked out if the "play group" began to get too rough with JB. One of FW's kids might have actually made the call, and the other ran to get Dad so as not to be blamed as one of the "doctors".

Fleet was JR's best friend prior to JB's death. Maybe JR had discussed a growing alarm about JB being involved in molestation by someone(s) very close to them. FW would have wanted to distance his kids from any problem that might have occurred on the 23rd.

 

[midwest mama]

(snipped)

I have always thought that JB was chronically molested by relatives, and of course that could lead to her 'flirting' inappropriately for attention/acceptance from strangers. This is going to sound sick, but if it was a 'loving' experience in the home, a stranger/non-relative taking liberties in a course way, or forced instead of 'nicely' coerced (like a parent would), could make her feel 'not pretty' afterwards. Aka 'dirty'--The number one reaction of rape victims--feeling dirty.
That quote, with the 911 call, always prejudiced me to believe JB was attacked not by family at the party. But with the BR evidence that's come to light, makes me wonder.
As I said, I do think both R kids were abused. But I think JB not only replaced BR in Patsy's focus, but also in JR's. So IMO, JB could have been subjected to 'gentle', coerced abuse by older relatives, but JB could also have been systematically victimized by BR (and maybe friend/s), BUT in a control/dominance/rage way. (With this theory, I'm suggesting that the 'poke' JB suffered that night may not have been staging, as I thought for so long, it may have been a rough game of doctor).

The fact that he was so cold with the investigator, 'getting on with his life', his reaction to a lookalike at Disney (?)--- All sounds like a kid who is not unhappy about his attention-magnet sister being gone.

But I think the complicated cover-up, plus JR's interest in pageant types, plus the chronic abuse of JB (plus so much else)---I think that all points to more than just covering for a troubled, jealous 9-year old.

The Stine idea is FASCINATING, btw. A perfect explanation for their entire post-'96 lives together, the celebratory attitude----If they believed they had 'saved their sons' together, from an 'accident' it makes perfect sense (the Stines wouldn't have to know about JR's or Br's chronic abuse of JB, in this scenario).
Also, keeping the Stines very close, helps everyone feel more secure that no one is getting a conscience.

JMO JMO thanks.

:rocker:Ahoyhoy

:takeoff: You've put together some thoughts based on known facts that help us look at case aspects that take us in a direction that is different than some of us have considered lately. Maybe we should think more about this?

 

[wengr]

So is one of the speculative scenarios that the young Stine son who was friends with BR was caught abusing JBR, then FW called 911, then Mrs Stine along with one of the Ramsey parents argued against this course of action for several obvious reasons, then BR attempted a copycat sexual assault on JBR, who then died, and then the senior Ramsey's both covered up the act, then the Stines and Ramsey's circled wagons so to speak, only Patsy's public remarks distancing herself emotionally from the Stines revealed her disdain and deep passive aggressive anger towards Mrs. Stine?
(Longest single run-on sentence in my posting history )

Then they tightened the wagons even more by having Mr. Stine's employment and thereby the family's security dependent on the "goodwill" of JR?

This is an idea, which imo is as plausible as any. However the autopsy pics of the skull fracture really speaks of rage to me. Is it possible that there was an incident of a sexual nature on the 23rd, ( DS? ), and as a result there was some extreme jealously from someone who had been abusing JB for some time? Theres no rage like a jealous rage. What do we difinitively know about the general emotional disposition of BR in the time between the 23rd and 26th?

 

[AD0086]

The fact that he was so cold with the investigator, 'getting on with his life', his reaction to a lookalike at Disney (?)--- All sounds like a kid who is not unhappy about his attention-magnet sister being gone.

Wow! Haven't heard this story. Someone enlighten me??

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Wow! Haven't heard this story. Someone enlighten me??

It's from The National Enquirer but here it is:

Band practice at the exclusive Lovett School in Atlanta came to a sudden halt recently when an 11-year-old trombone player threw a fit.

The youngster was Burke Ramsey.

Sadly the murder of his sister, JonBenét seems to have turned him into an angry and sometimes strange boy.

"Burke tossed his instrument to the floor with a thud and screamed that he hated the trombone and didn't want to play it anymore," said a source.

"All the kids in the band got real quiet and some of them were frightened.

"Burke kept screaming an practice was canceled while teachers quieted him down. Burke is now playing saxophone."

On another occasion, Burke was on an amusement park outing when he got freaked out by a girl who looked like JonBenét, said the source.

"He went white and turned away from her. He kept yelling he didn't want to go on a ride with HER!"

One of Burke's homeroom classmates told the source: "He talks to himself in the corner a lot. Everybody thinks he's talking to his sister."

 

[UKGuy]

It's from The National Enquirer but here it is:

eileenhawkeye,
Kolar did say Burke Ramsey was on medication after the death of JonBenet.

Talking to himself and freaking out over his sisters look-a-like, is this a tabloid characterization or one guilty boy?


.

 

[4Jacy]

eileenhawkeye,
Kolar did say Burke Ramsey was on medication after the death of JonBenet.

Talking to himself and freaking out over his sisters look-a-like, is this a tabloid characterization or one guilty boy?


.

I was in communication with a National Enquirer reporter, Don Gentile I believe his name was. He told me that the PR & JR were communicating with each other by sticky notes, and he knew this because the reporters would go through the trash (this is while they were staying with the Stines) He was sure PR was going to be arrested. I think they really covered this case very well. No sensationalism needed to be made up in this case, the R's created it all.