Was Burke involved?

[ellen13]

Nehemiah, Merry Christmas, I like your IF, it opens eyes of forum readers who sometimes read something as fact rather than a supposition. IF IF is a good thing.

NOW Then the BIG question about the Ramseys HONESTY and integrity.

WHY, would the Ramseys avoid the ONE MILLION DOLLARS offered by the National Enquirer IF IF the Ramseys would take a LIE DETECTOR test while CLUES were still hot?

IF IF they had 'flunked' then they could not have taken the media to task with lawsuits on behalf of their small son, could they? Well let me guess the answer. Nopey nope.

Again, by being open and honest and taking the test, the money could have been used for a JonBenet fund to HELP other families with actual MISSING children.

Can you spell HOGWASH?

Another biggie in my 'Wondering Book' is WHY all the lawsuits by the R's when Burke was zeroed in on in MEDIA etc. IF IF he were not prosecutable because of his age and IF IF he were the ONE?

Do you call that EASY money, or do you call it intimidation money, or just what do you call that ceremonial effort by way of LAWSUIT, and like Monopoly, just collect the money.

Can you spell coverup for another family member?

I personally would have great respect for a family that would have taken a lie detector test right up front.

It would have shown respect for little JonBenet as well, IF IF they had taken the test BEFORE she was buried. The result today would be that the Ramseys would be living a quiet respectful life, instead of remaining in their public and private prison, or would they?

What IF IF they had 'flunked' the test at the outset, they were loaded up with attorneys, and most likely no one would have been sitting in the Striped Jail Cell Spa today either.

IF they had flunked, they could not have filed lawsuits against the media for wondering in print about their small son.

WHo did IT, and how was it done, why was it done, most likely WE will never know, when all LE sits on their hands, 'they' donut know either.

Merry Christmas to all the regulars and to the irregulars as well.

=========================================

ellen13, yep I do think Condit knew a great big bunch in advance of 9/11, and that Chandra would have put the pieces together AFTER 9/11, because of their private activities, or names that were known to her. Therefore she had to be removed. Joyce Chiang also was murdered, she had LOTS of info being involved heavily with the activities of NHS, (memory is shot on the exact letters of the gov. agency involved in immigration status etc.)

Thanks for answering my post about Condit!

 

[ellen13]

right on! Now THAT is something I would LOVE to see!!

What you said about injecting them with truth serum-I've often wondered why the BPD didn't use PR's valium state (or whatever she was on) and take
advantage of her vulnerability.

 

[Shanny]

I think Burke was involved, I think he was playing "The Choking Game"
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/09/choking.game/
with JonBenet and it got out of control
the rope around JonBenet's neck was tied in a double knot and it seems someone who had all the time in the world sat there and wrapped a rope around a paint brush over & over to make a gorotte
http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote2.jpg
that seems a little immature for an adult to do.

Sorry if this one's been polled before, if it has, mods feel free to remove the post.

From what I know (not much ), I say probably YES Burke was involved. I am not sure of myself on this one, though!

 

[Camper]

Nehemiah, Merry Christmas, I like your IF, it opens eyes of forum readers who sometimes read something as fact rather than a supposition. IF IF is a good thing.

NOW Then the BIG question about the Ramseys HONESTY and integrity.

WHY, would the Ramseys avoid the ONE MILLION DOLLARS offered by the National Enquirer IF IF the Ramseys would take a LIE DETECTOR test while CLUES were still hot?

IF IF they had 'flunked' then they could not have taken the media to task with lawsuits on behalf of their small son, could they? Well let me guess the answer. Nopey nope.

Again, by being open and honest and taking the test, the money could have been used for a JonBenet fund to HELP other families with actual MISSING children.

Can you spell HOGWASH?

Another biggie in my 'Wondering Book' is WHY all the lawsuits by the R's when Burke was zeroed in on in MEDIA etc. IF IF he were not prosecutable because of his age and IF IF he were the ONE?

Do you call that EASY money, or do you call it intimidation money, or just what do you call that ceremonial effort by way of LAWSUIT, and like Monopoly, just collect the money.

Can you spell coverup for another family member?

I personally would have great respect for a family that would have taken a lie detector test right up front.

It would have shown respect for little JonBenet as well, IF IF they had taken the test BEFORE she was buried. The result today would be that the Ramseys would be living a quiet respectful life, instead of remaining in their public and private prison, or would they?

What IF IF they had 'flunked' the test at the outset, they were loaded up with attorneys, and most likely no one would have been sitting in the Striped Jail Cell Spa today either.

IF they had flunked, they could not have filed lawsuits against the media for wondering in print about their small son.

WHo did IT, and how was it done, why was it done, most likely WE will never know, when all LE sits on their hands, 'they' donut know either.

Merry Christmas to all the regulars and to the irregulars as well.

=========================================

ellen13, yep I do think Condit knew a great big bunch in advance of 9/11, and that Chandra would have put the pieces together AFTER 9/11, because of their private activities, or names that were known to her. Therefore she had to be removed. Joyce Chiang also was murdered, she had LOTS of info being involved heavily with the activities of NHS,
(memory is shot on the exact letters of the gov. agency involved in immigration status etc.)

=================================
CORRECTING - INS is the correct agency abbreviation for The Imigration and Naturalization Service)I remembered, AFTER I had logged off.


----------------------

 

[cynpat2000]

Burke could have very well have killed her.there are a few child killers out there and whoever killed her had to have serious mental issues and john and patsy to MY knowledge have no prior psychotic breaks.and who really knows what burke has been up to,maybe killing animals for all anybody knows,I mean I read somewhere on here that burkes fingerprints were on the pineapple bowl.And remeber cary stayner he said he had murderous thoughts since childhood,I would not totally not discount this theory!!!And maybe john or patsy came across what he had done and realizing they lost a child they were not going to lose another one and the coverup began!!!Just a theory!!!!

 

[UKGuy]

Burke could have very well have killed her.there are a few child killers out there and whoever killed her had to have serious mental issues and john and patsy to MY knowledge have no prior psychotic breaks.and who really knows what burke has been up to,maybe killing animals for all anybody knows,I mean I read somewhere on here that burkes fingerprints were on the pineapple bowl.And remeber cary stayner he said he had murderous thoughts since childhood,I would not totally not discount this theory!!!And maybe john or patsy came across what he had done and realizing they lost a child they were not going to lose another one and the coverup began!!!Just a theory!!!!

There is no motive or rationale for Burke to murder JonBenet. Then he was a 9-year old boy, not yet schooled in the ways of the world, he would not have the acumen, savy or prior knowledge to undertake the staging and coverup that did occur on the 26th December.

Even at Burke's age JonBenet was still his sister she represented no threat to him, so the idea of murder as a solution to some problem, is stretching credulity somewhat.

You could propose an accident but then why not own up 'hey we had an accident', why all this ransom note and wine-cellar staging, this homicide does not have the hallmarks of a preteen sociopath on it, more those of adult fingerprints and experience of removing forensic evidence.

I can only assume that the successful removal of some, if not most forensic evidence and the wine-cellar staging has persuaded many people that her homicide was something other that what it really is!

.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I have to agree. There's no evidence of Burke acting like he could be a murderer before or after the murder of his sister. Usually people who kill start out on animals and have a history of cruelty and profound lack of remorse, but he displays none of that. There is no evidence of him being so upset or jealous of his sister that he would wish to do this level of harm to her. This is way beyond a simple game of "doctor" between kids. Nine year olds simply do not behave in the manner that killed JonBenét, no matter how much of the Discovery Channel they watch, and if they have those tendencies, it's obvious before they kill their siblings and most likely noticed and remarked upon by family and school people.

There is also no evidence of him behaving like a killer or a sexual sadist after JonBenét's murder either, and I would think that if he was her killer, we would have seen some evidence of similar behavior since then. He wouldn't be able to help it if he was actually like that.

And I have serious trouble believing he did this and then somehow forgot and the Rs are now covering up to protect him and have been lying to him so he doesn't find out he was the one who did it.

 

[narlacat]

I have to agree. There's no evidence of Burke acting like he could be a murderer before or after the murder of his sister. Usually people who kill start out on animals and have a history of cruelty and profound lack of remorse, but he displays none of that. There is no evidence of him being so upset or jealous of his sister that he would wish to do this level of harm to her. This is way beyond a simple game of "doctor" between kids. Nine year olds simply do not behave in the manner that killed JonBenét, no matter how much of the Discovery Channel they watch, and if they have those tendencies, it's obvious before they kill their siblings and most likely noticed and remarked upon by family and school people.
There is also no evidence of him behaving like a killer or a sexual sadist after JonBenét's murder either, and I would think that if he was her killer, we would have seen some evidence of similar behavior since then. He wouldn't be able to help it if he was actually like that.
And I have serious trouble believing he did this and then somehow forgot and the Rs are now covering up to protect him and have been lying to him so he doesn't find out he was the one who did it.

Well, I thought Burke did show a lack of remorse towards his sister's death.
He told child psychologist Suzanne Bernhard that he was 'getting on with his life' less than 2 weeks after his sister had died.
I found his behaviour in that interview quite odd to say the least.

To say 'Nine year olds simply do not behave in the manner that killed JonBenét' is a naive statement.
There are lots of reported cases where young children have been involved in other young children's deaths.
It is not uncommon.
I'd say Burke was more than capable of strangling his little sister or knocking her on the head at the age of 9 going on 10.
The fact that the body was dragged at some point could suggest a child having been involved also.

 

[dingo]

10 year old are quite capable of killing.
Just ask James Bulgers mother.

 

[ellen13]

I have to agree with Narla and Dingo. Remember thatjust 3 years prior, he hit her with a golf club in the head and she was in the emergency room when he was just 6 and she was 3 (accident, maybe). One of my theories is that he got his idea about killing her when he was 6, which might even be worse-premeditated! Maybe Patsy got questioned so much when she took JBR into that ER, that she knew to cover it up if something like this happened again. We don't know if a social worker got involved at that point.
To me, that's important "past behavior" knowledge.
And, yes, I know that most sociopaths do start out hurting animals and don't show remorse, but to my knowledge, Scott Peterson never killed an animal.
I still believe it's possible that BR could have had something to do with this.
I'm not sure if he could do the elaborate cover-up in that manner (but that is where the other 2 people in the house might have gotten involved), but he could have definitely strangled her or hit her in the head. Even a 6 year-old could do that, as he showed 3 years prior to her death.

 

[ellen13]

Narla,

You've got mail.
Ellen

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I have to agree with Narla and Dingo. Remember thatjust 3 years prior, he hit her with a golf club in the head and she was in the emergency room when he was just 6 and she was 3 (accident, maybe). One of my theories is that he got his idea about killing her when he was 6, which might even be worse-premeditated! Maybe Patsy got questioned so much when she took JBR into that ER, that she knew to cover it up if something like this happened again. We don't know if a social worker got involved at that point.
To me, that's important "past behavior" knowledge.
And, yes, I know that most sociopaths do start out hurting animals and don't show remorse, but to my knowledge, Scott Peterson never killed an animal.
I still believe it's possible that BR could have had something to do with this.
I'm not sure if he could do the elaborate cover-up in that manner (but that is where the other 2 people in the house might have gotten involved), but he could have definitely strangled her or hit her in the head. Even a 6 year-old could do that, as he showed 3 years prior to her death.

What other past behavior has Burke shown that would lead people to believe he was capable of killing his sister at age nine? What behavior has he shown since the murder that would lead people to believe he could have been capable of killing his sister? As far as I can see, none - either before or since.

He wasn't inordinately jealous of her. He didn't exhibit behavior that indicated he had a problem with her, not enough to want her dead, and to kill her himself. Never have I heard anyone say that Burke was intentionally mean to her, or acted spiteful or jealous towards her, and I have to assume if that was an issue, it would have been thoroughly discussed by now.

The golf club incident, by all accounts, was an accident, and nothing more. Patsy freaked out, and dragged JB to specialists not because someone was asking questions (accidents like this happen all the time), but because she couldn't stand the idea of her daughter looking less than perfect.

I'm not saying he'd didn't do it or couldn't have done it. I'm saying it's possible but not probable, escially since I personally don't see any other behavior to back it up.

 

[Britt]

Well, I thought Burke did show a lack of remorse towards his sister's death.
He told child psychologist Suzanne Bernhard that he was 'getting on with his life' less than 2 weeks after his sister had died.

What 9/10-year-old talks like that? To me, it sounds like a kid who has been coached and controlled by his parents, is afraid to anger them and so represses his emotions and just repeats what he's been told to say (or not say, when that convenient "amnesia" strikes).

Actually, it's a lot like JonBenet's performing as trained, IMO.

 

[UKGuy]

What other past behavior has Burke shown that would lead people to believe he was capable of killing his sister at age nine? What behavior has he shown since the murder that would lead people to believe he could have been capable of killing his sister? As far as I can see, none - either before or since.

He wasn't inordinately jealous of her. He didn't exhibit behavior that indicated he had a problem with her, not enough to want her dead, and to kill her himself. Never have I heard anyone say that Burke was intentionally mean to her, or acted spiteful or jealous towards her, and I have to assume if that was an issue, it would have been thoroughly discussed by now.

The golf club incident, by all accounts, was an accident, and nothing more. Patsy freaked out, and dragged JB to specialists not because someone was asking questions (accidents like this happen all the time), but because she couldn't stand the idea of her daughter looking less than perfect.

I'm not saying he'd didn't do it or couldn't have done it. I'm saying it's possible but not probable, escially since I personally don't see any other behavior to back it up.

Nuisanceposter,

I tend to agree with you. Although its still possible he did kill JonBenet, the manner of her death, somehow imo does not reflect that of a 9-year old boy. 15-year old, 18-year old maybe, but not a 9-year-old.

Also what motive could he have had? He was the son of a millionaire, enjoyed the benefits therein.

Why kill your little sister, and the emphasis is on the 'little', she is only 6-years old, and other than receiving more attention, just what could Burke complain about?

Basically anyone who considers Burke did it has to supply a pretty convincing motive.

Without the staging in the wine-cellar, I would have accepted some kind of intruder theory, I dont rule it out completely, but there is no forensic evidence to back it up.

Whilst irrespective of any other theory most of the forensic evidence implicates the Ramseys, they get an Out Of Jail Card on this since it is their house and any reason can be offered for the forensic evidence, but the negative is that there is no intruder forensic evidence!

Also you should rule out some kind of accident being the cause. Since an 'accident' is not a homicide and not many prosecuters would want to promote such a case to a trial. So if it had been an accident, its easier to reveal that than some convoluted staged homicide.

If you consider the violent manner of her death, its difficult to characterise Burke as some kind of sexual predator forcing himself upon JonBenet!

If you reject Steven Thomas's toilet rage theory what are you left with? Either its Patsy or John, or as camper suggests the R's are covering up for say JAR?

The other theory on the table could be some kind of conspiracy, but it is difficult to distinguish between the influence the Ramsey's money and status might have been brought to bear and that of some conspiracy to cover it up, and avoid a trial.

So was Burke involved as originally asked, well its an ambiguous question, since by being in the same household he is involved.

I do think he has colluded in some manner, even if its only to be evasive when questioned. So to that extent he is involved, but I dont think he killed JonBenet!

 

[aussiesheila]

What 9/10-year-old talks like that? To me, it sounds like a kid who has been coached and controlled by his parents, is afraid to anger them and so represses his emotions and just repeats what he's been told to say (or not say, when that convenient "amnesia" strikes).

Actually, it's a lot like JonBenet's performing as trained, IMO.

Were those his exact words Britt? Or was the psychologist paraphrasing what he had actually said?

I actually agree with you, about repressing his emotions, I think he did, but probably not for the same reasons you do.

I agree with all the posters who say Burke could not have done it. I have posted this before about how I think that if he was that disturbed as a ten year old that he was capable of killing his six year old sister, he would have been showing some pretty serious signs of disturbed thinking, if not before the killing, then certainly after, and by now, now that he is 20 years old, he would be a lot, lot worse; people like this do not get better without intensive and prolonged psychiatric treatment, if they get better at all, and IMO better is just a matter of degree, they never become 'normal'. Yet as far as I know there has never been the slightest whisper that Burke Ramsey is even a little odd, and don't anyone try to tell me that Ramsey money has paid off an entire generation of Colorado University students, there would have been someone, somewhere who would be prepared to sell a story to a tabloid, if not for money, then for their 15 minutes of fame.

 

[Britt]

Aussiesheila, I agree with your entire post. I don't think Burke did it. I think Patsy did it, and Patsy and John worked together to stage the coverup, and then coached Burke on what to say and not say so as not to risk blowing the coverup.

I don't think Burke was a direct witness either, but at the very least he knew, and his parents knew he knew, that they were lying about that night/next morning, and they figured they could control him with some coaching on what not to say and what to say if he was forced to say something.

IMO if Burke were involved or were a direct witness, the Ramseys would never have let him out of their sight, not for a nanosecond.

 

[Paradox]

I don't think Burke did it either. Otherwise he would have gone nuts by now and would probably be spouting off how JonBenet is in heaven with God or saying stuff like he talks to her or something like that. He looks like he got a lot of Ramsey genes, lucky for him.

 

[narlacat]

Maybe it was PP then lol
She sprouted off about talking to JonBenét in heaven...had a great conversation they did....all about how JonBenét misses the pageants.
What a joke.....there's definitely something wrong with those Paugh girls.

 

[Paradox]

Maybe it was PP then lol
She sprouted off about talking to JonBenét in heaven...had a great conversation they did....all about how JonBenét misses the pageants.
What a joke.....there's definitely something wrong with those Paugh girls.

Rotten fruitcakes don't fall far from the tree. Something was wrong with the parenting in the Paugh house.

 

[trixie]

I like your siggy, Burke knows squat, because that's what I think. If Burke had known something all along or even found something out and knew it now, he would in effect be holding his parents hostage to his whims and wants. Tn Can you imagine a child holding info like that on his parents? Something like that could create a little monster. Much like the sibling, "I'm gonna tell!" kinda thing. No, IMO Burke doesn't know squat or he would've used it against them by now. But then again, who knows, he might have. Nothing like a little blackmail between family members.