It was said that Patsy wasn't thrilled with the dog because it wasn't completely housebroken. (as if it mattered in that messy house- probably no one bothered to walk it regularly). The dog spent a lot of time at the Barnhill's across the street.
Was Burke involved?
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It was said that Patsy wasn't thrilled with the dog because it wasn't completely housebroken. (as if it mattered in that messy house- probably no one bothered to walk it regularly). The dog spent a lot of time at the Barnhill's across the street.
otg
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The shoes/boots/sneakers (you decide what to call them -- a rose is a rose...) were part of a sales promo/campaign. The PR announcement link no longer works, but here is what was printed long ago:
This is a picture of a pair found on Ebay long ago, thought to be same or similar (the Hi-Tec poon doesn't look to be exactly the same as the one shown in evidence pictures):
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x_files
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Was the house messy? Cluttered by kid's stuff or dirty gross?
The pop smeared on the chocolates made me want to hurl, sounds like Burke was one messed up little brat.
I don't think the house was real dirty since they had a housekeeper, but from what I've read it was a little messy and the basement of course, was horrible. The kids underwear was fecal stained, including a pair of pajama bottoms by JB's bed. As far as those pajamas and the feces smeared chocolates were concerned, as far as I know, it has never been said who did what. I don't even know if those things were tested. IMO, since JB reportedly had wetting and soiling issues, the chocolate mess might have been hers, but BR reportedly had the same issues, so he could have been responsible. If he was responsible, it sure was a mean thing to do. And I agree that he, right along with the rest of the family, was messed up. all moo.
Chelly
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Patsy was known to never put anything away. Dirty dishes would remain on the counter until the housekeeper arrived. Clothing was tossed here and there. Patsy cared little about the hygiene of her children. The R's dumped stuff they didn't want into the basement. The basement sort of became a dump of unused, unwanted items.
Chelly,
For those that analyse from a psychological perspective, was JonBenet placed into the basement for similar reasons?
.
Chelly
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Indeed! I often state that the WC was the "dump site" until a better one could be found. For whatever reason, the R's ultimately decided to leave JBR's body in that location.
x_files
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Interesting. Lazy? or entitled?
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ATasteOfHoney
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Lazy & crazy.....and yes, it was all about the facade.
x_files
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Sounds like JR was a slob too then, correct?
weird...they seem very image oriented people maybe they were spoiled rotten and felt it wasn't their job to clean ever.
If you have never seen photos of the inside of the house, they can be seen on acandyrose. The house was very messy (but not dirty). Her housekeeper came three times a week, and even Patsy's mother Nedra called Patsy out on how messy the house was. She used to complain that the housekeeper was there to clean, not pick up after the family. LHP (the housekeeper) said that there was no hamper in the house- that she and Patsy talked about getting one but they never did. LHP said that nothing was ever picked up or put back. Milk left on the counter, peanut butter jar left open, crumbs all around, etc. Everyone dropped clothes on the floor where they took them off. She said that JR used the laundry chute (to the basement) sometimes but no one else in the family did.
If you go look at those photos, keep in mind that was how the house usually looked- it wasn't because the police had ransacked the house or messed things up.
x_files
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lazy and self entitled attitude is what I am thinking.
ATasteOfHoney
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I don't know if JR was a slob but PR was really what I would consider a lower-class girl from the backwoods who struggled with everything she could muster to make herself appear "normal", well-educated, sophisticated, and polished. She competed with young ladies who were "old money", sophisticated, and Ivy-league. PR knew in her heart that she wasn't that and tried harder than most to be "somebody". Her mama taught her the rules and PR played it well. Whatever ruse PR could pull off to appear to be this perfect illusion, she would do with fervor. JBR being a part of that energy and frantic obsession that PR possessed.
To PR: Image, image, image. As long as you smile through it, it didn't happen or could be minimized. Bad things were hidden 'cause if you didn't acknowledge it, half the time it works itself out. Project to the world that you have a perfect world and never had a bad day; anything else is unacceptable. Imho, from a psych standpoint, with PR there's an interior self and an exterior self that never reconciles itself into one continuum.
IMHO, PR's family-life while growing up encompassed a lot to be embarassed and ashamed of (in her mind) therefore she was compelled to "clean that up" and spit-shine it. And this way of life had been generational---going on for a long time in her family's history.
She had a lot of psych/personality disorders going on--deep seated issues.
moo
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Both?
otg
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For all the years I’ve been following this, I’ve been reluctant to accept something that others have speculated. I thought some of BR’s behaviors were from his precociousness or maybe the influence of a slightly older friend or “buddy”. I am now beginning to think more and more that both Ramsey children were being (or had been) abused -- not just JonBenet. From what we now know, there are just so many signs that point to it. Not any one thing by itself, but when you put it all together it becomes something that just can’t be ignored. Fecal smearing, soiled underwear, poop on candy, poop balls in the bed, poop in pajamas, skid marks on the carpet... And then when you consider the things we don’t know -- the things that have been deliberately kept from the police (like medical records), and the things the police know that haven’t been released or leaked -- it all adds up to more than can be ignored or trivialized as simply something odd or out of place.
I don’t need to reiterate all the signs that indicate JonBenet had been abused -- we all know them. But consider the following from here and here (bbm):
Most professionals who work with children are aware of contemporary studies that suggest that increased sexual behaviors may be an indication that a child is being, or has been, sexually molested. Increasing evidence also points to the fact that it is important to evaluate young children who are coercing other children into unwanted sexual behaviors; research on adult offenders has revealed that many offenders began their coercive sexual behaviors in elementary school and increased the number and violence of their sexual behaviors during adolescence.
Professionals who work with children need to have perspectives on the full spectrum of childhood sexual behaviors, from the wide variety of what are perceived to be age-appropriate healthy activities to patterns that may be unhealthy or pathological and may require attention and/or treatment.
After analyzing extensive evaluations of hundreds of children, and their families, who were referred to the author due to the child’s sexual behaviors, four definable clusters or groups of children have begun to emerge on a continuum of behaviors:
Each group includes a broad range of children, some are on the borderline between the groups, and some move between the groups over a period of time.
If the child falls into Groups II, III or IV, a thorough evaluation to assess the treatment needs of the child, and the family, will be necessary. It is recommended that assessments should be completed by a mental health professional who specializes in child sexual abuse. While the child may not have been sexually abused, the sexual behaviors demonstrated in these groups may be indicative of previous or current sexual abuse.
The sexual behaviours of Group IV children go far beyond developmentally appropriate childhood explorations or sexual play. Like the children in Group III, their thoughts and actions are often pervaded with sexuality. Typical behaviours of these children may include (but are not limited to) oral copulation, vaginal intercourse, anal intercourse and/or forcibly penetrating vagina or anus of another child with fingers, sticks and/or other objects. These children’s sexual behaviours continue and increase over time, and are part of a consistent pattern of behaviours rather than isolated incidents. Even if their activities are discovered, they do not, and cannot, stop without intensive and specialized treatment.
These children often link sexual acting out to feelings of anger (or even rage), loneliness, or fear.
While most of the case studies in this group are not physically violent, coercion is always a factor. Child perpetrators seek out children who are easy to fool, bribe, or force into sexual activities with them. The child victim does not get to choose what the sexual behaviours will be, nor when they will end. Often the child victim is younger and sometimes the age difference is as great as 12 years, since some of these children molest infants. On the other hand, some child perpetrators molest children who are age-mates or older. In sibling incest with boy perpetrators, the victim is typically the favourite child of the parents. In other cases, the child is selected due to special vulnerabilities, including age, intellectual impairment, extreme loneliness, repression, social isolation, or emotional neediness. Child perpetrators often use social and emotional threats to keep their victims quiet: "I won t play with you ever again, if you tell"; this is a powerful reason to keep quiet if the child victim already feels lonely, isolated or even abandoned at home and at school.
Some children who molest other children habitually urinate and defecate outside the toilet (on the floor, in their beds, outdoors, etc.) While many Group I children may mildly resist changing underwear, some children in Group IV will wear soiled underpants for more than a week or two and adamantly refuse to change. Some constantly sniff underwear. Many of the children regularly use excessive amounts of toilet paper (some relate wiping and cleaning themselves to masturbation) and stuff the toilet until it overflows day after day. The children continue these disturbed toileting patterns even if their families have severely punished them for their behaviour.
Most child perpetrators who have been studied have been victims of sexual abuse themselves, although the sexual abuse generally has occurred years before the children began molesting other children. All of the girl perpetrators (females represent about 25% of child perpetrators) and about 60% to 70% of the boy perpetrators have been molested. All of the children live in home environments marked by sexual stimulation and lack of boundaries, and almost all of the children have witnessed extreme physical violence between their primary caretakers. Most parents of Group IV children also have sexual abuse in their family histories, as well as physical and substance abuse.
(Excerpts from) Signals for Parents and Counsellors:
3. The child engages in sexual behaviours with those who are much older or younger. Most school-aged children engage in sexual behaviour with children within a year or so of their age. In general, the wider the age range between children engaging in sexual behaviours, the greater the concern.
11. The child manifests a number of disturbing toileting behaviours: plays with, smears faeces, urinates outside of the bathroom, uses excessive amounts of toilet paper, stuffs toilet bowls to overflow, sniffs or steals underwear.
13. The child manually stimulates or has oral or genital contact with animals.
14. The child has painful and/or continuous erections or vaginal discharge.
Does #13 cause anyone else to again question why they might have decided to let Jacques stay at the neighbors’ house?Professionals who work with children need to have perspectives on the full spectrum of childhood sexual behaviors, from the wide variety of what are perceived to be age-appropriate healthy activities to patterns that may be unhealthy or pathological and may require attention and/or treatment.
After analyzing extensive evaluations of hundreds of children, and their families, who were referred to the author due to the child’s sexual behaviors, four definable clusters or groups of children have begun to emerge on a continuum of behaviors:
- Group 1 includes children engaged in natural and healthy childhood sexual exploration;
- Group II is comprised of sexually-reactive children;
- Group III includes children who mutually engage in a full range of adult sexual behaviors; and
- Group IV includes children who molest other children.
Each group includes a broad range of children, some are on the borderline between the groups, and some move between the groups over a period of time.
If the child falls into Groups II, III or IV, a thorough evaluation to assess the treatment needs of the child, and the family, will be necessary. It is recommended that assessments should be completed by a mental health professional who specializes in child sexual abuse. While the child may not have been sexually abused, the sexual behaviors demonstrated in these groups may be indicative of previous or current sexual abuse.
The sexual behaviours of Group IV children go far beyond developmentally appropriate childhood explorations or sexual play. Like the children in Group III, their thoughts and actions are often pervaded with sexuality. Typical behaviours of these children may include (but are not limited to) oral copulation, vaginal intercourse, anal intercourse and/or forcibly penetrating vagina or anus of another child with fingers, sticks and/or other objects. These children’s sexual behaviours continue and increase over time, and are part of a consistent pattern of behaviours rather than isolated incidents. Even if their activities are discovered, they do not, and cannot, stop without intensive and specialized treatment.
These children often link sexual acting out to feelings of anger (or even rage), loneliness, or fear.
While most of the case studies in this group are not physically violent, coercion is always a factor. Child perpetrators seek out children who are easy to fool, bribe, or force into sexual activities with them. The child victim does not get to choose what the sexual behaviours will be, nor when they will end. Often the child victim is younger and sometimes the age difference is as great as 12 years, since some of these children molest infants. On the other hand, some child perpetrators molest children who are age-mates or older. In sibling incest with boy perpetrators, the victim is typically the favourite child of the parents. In other cases, the child is selected due to special vulnerabilities, including age, intellectual impairment, extreme loneliness, repression, social isolation, or emotional neediness. Child perpetrators often use social and emotional threats to keep their victims quiet: "I won t play with you ever again, if you tell"; this is a powerful reason to keep quiet if the child victim already feels lonely, isolated or even abandoned at home and at school.
Some children who molest other children habitually urinate and defecate outside the toilet (on the floor, in their beds, outdoors, etc.) While many Group I children may mildly resist changing underwear, some children in Group IV will wear soiled underpants for more than a week or two and adamantly refuse to change. Some constantly sniff underwear. Many of the children regularly use excessive amounts of toilet paper (some relate wiping and cleaning themselves to masturbation) and stuff the toilet until it overflows day after day. The children continue these disturbed toileting patterns even if their families have severely punished them for their behaviour.
Most child perpetrators who have been studied have been victims of sexual abuse themselves, although the sexual abuse generally has occurred years before the children began molesting other children. All of the girl perpetrators (females represent about 25% of child perpetrators) and about 60% to 70% of the boy perpetrators have been molested. All of the children live in home environments marked by sexual stimulation and lack of boundaries, and almost all of the children have witnessed extreme physical violence between their primary caretakers. Most parents of Group IV children also have sexual abuse in their family histories, as well as physical and substance abuse.
(Excerpts from) Signals for Parents and Counsellors:
3. The child engages in sexual behaviours with those who are much older or younger. Most school-aged children engage in sexual behaviour with children within a year or so of their age. In general, the wider the age range between children engaging in sexual behaviours, the greater the concern.
11. The child manifests a number of disturbing toileting behaviours: plays with, smears faeces, urinates outside of the bathroom, uses excessive amounts of toilet paper, stuffs toilet bowls to overflow, sniffs or steals underwear.
13. The child manually stimulates or has oral or genital contact with animals.
14. The child has painful and/or continuous erections or vaginal discharge.
Does #14 cause anyone else to think back on that odd comment made by Nedra about BR’s “size”?
Does #11 cause anyone else to think back on the following Q/A’s from Patsy’s June 23, 1998 interview (bbm):
Questions about an incident witnessed by a previous housekeeper:
7 TRIP DeMUTH: A couple of questions
8 Tom. With Evan Colby, was there ever a time
9 when Burke and Evan were under the porch without
10 their clothes on something, like that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Can you tell me about
13 that?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think
15 Cynthia Savage, my housekeeper-nanny, told me
16 about that one time. They were, there isn't a
17 porch to be under, but I think Evan taught Burke
18 that it was easier to go pee-pee outside than to
19 take the time to go inside to go pee-pee, so he
20 sort of taught him how to go behind the tree.
21 Evan is a little guy.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: How little is little
23 Evan?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I want to say
25 Burke was probably six or seven, Evan was 7 or
0120
1 8, or something like that. And Suzanne told me
2 she came out and saw -- I think she said they
3 were kind of by where we kept this trash can,
4 sort on the left side of the garage and Evan had
5 his pants down showing Burke his -- works.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Would Burke also have
7 his pants down or not?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think
9 I heard that.
Questioning about pictures of the basement toilet area:8 Tom. With Evan Colby, was there ever a time
9 when Burke and Evan were under the porch without
10 their clothes on something, like that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Can you tell me about
13 that?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think
15 Cynthia Savage, my housekeeper-nanny, told me
16 about that one time. They were, there isn't a
17 porch to be under, but I think Evan taught Burke
18 that it was easier to go pee-pee outside than to
19 take the time to go inside to go pee-pee, so he
20 sort of taught him how to go behind the tree.
21 Evan is a little guy.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: How little is little
23 Evan?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I want to say
25 Burke was probably six or seven, Evan was 7 or
0120
1 8, or something like that. And Suzanne told me
2 she came out and saw -- I think she said they
3 were kind of by where we kept this trash can,
4 sort on the left side of the garage and Evan had
5 his pants down showing Burke his -- works.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Would Burke also have
7 his pants down or not?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think
9 I heard that.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Look at all those pictures,
16 242, 43 and 44 and 45 together.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the little bathroom in
18 the basement.
19 TOM HANEY: Anything out of place or unusual
20 in those photos?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the bathroom we hadn't
22 utilized very much. These little Christmas decorations
23 were left over from -- I had put those there when we
24 had the home tour two years earlier, because the
25 volunteers used this area and I had a bathroom
0408
1 available.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: That photo 244 was shut, is
3 that how you left them?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that, yes. I would have
5 left that. I left it like that.
6 Now this, I don't know what that is -- why
7 that would be there.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to like tissue.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: It is like tissue something,
10 because I remember I specifically asked Linda some time
11 in the not-so-distant future to go down and clean that
12 bathroom because I think one of the boys had used the
13 bathroom and not flushed it. It was kind of yucko, so
14 she had gone down there. So I don't know if that is
15 her cleaning rag she left there or what.
16 TOM HANEY: Do you know for a fact that she
17 did clean it, could she have been in there since?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't remember that too
19 much about that bathroom.
20 TOM HANEY: When you were present she wasn't
21 in there?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. The door was usually
23 closed because that -- that door opens right when you
24 came down those steps. (Inaudible). There are a bunch
25 of smears on here.
0409
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to 205.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing anything
4 like that there before seeing that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No, because I had that whole
6 downstairs painted, I mean cleaned.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: When was that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, 1994, before that home
9 tour, Christmas home tour.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Who used that bathroom?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: The boys. You know, Burke and
12 Evan were down there playing with the trains. They
13 would go in there and use it.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: What do you mean that they had
15 not flushed that toilet, what do you mean by that?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think someone had gone
17 to the potty and hadn't flushed it. It was there for
18 several days.
19 TOM HANEY: Are we talking urine?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. It was just
21 reported to me. It was, mom, the bathroom is pretty
22 yucky, and Linda took care of it is the way I think it
23 went.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: How common was it for Evan and
25 Burke to not flush?
0410
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, Burke is pretty well
2 trained, because that is one of my big pet peeves, but
3 Evan I don't know about.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: What does that mean, Patsy,
5 when you say you don't know about?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know whether he
7 flushes regularly.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: That could imply, I don't know
9 about him because he doesn't flush, or I wanted to
10 clear that up.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I would believe
12 it was Evan that used it and didn't flush rather than
13 my son. I would like to believe that.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Was it a more than one-time
15 occasion in this bathroom down there?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I just remember that one.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: When was that? It doesn't have
18 to be precise, I mean how long before Christmas?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I don't know
20 exactly. I just remember it happening.
21 TRIP DEMUTH: Right before Christmas?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I just can't remember. I just
23 remember the event that there was a dirty bathroom bowl
24 and obviously the boys were down there using it and not
25 flushing.
0411
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know, did Linda clean it
2 up, do you know?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I -- I am sure she did, but I
4 didn't go down there and double check it.
5 TOM HANEY: Is she usually pretty confident
6 if you give her something?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Had you been in this bathroom
9 at all prior to Christmas of '96?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I hadn't been in there.
11 You can tell I haven't been in there since '94.
12 TOM HANEY: Anything else? The tissue of
13 some kind.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
15 TOM HANEY: 246 now.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). Is that the hall
17 from here? No.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: That is a closer picture of the
19 wall.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, is it? Okay. It looks
21 dirty to me, that close up.
I hate to admit it, but I do now believe that the events that led up to everything that happened on Christmas night in 1996 had actually started several years before that night. The signs were all there. I just didn’t want to believe it.16 242, 43 and 44 and 45 together.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the little bathroom in
18 the basement.
19 TOM HANEY: Anything out of place or unusual
20 in those photos?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the bathroom we hadn't
22 utilized very much. These little Christmas decorations
23 were left over from -- I had put those there when we
24 had the home tour two years earlier, because the
25 volunteers used this area and I had a bathroom
0408
1 available.
2 TRIP DEMUTH: That photo 244 was shut, is
3 that how you left them?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that, yes. I would have
5 left that. I left it like that.
6 Now this, I don't know what that is -- why
7 that would be there.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to like tissue.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: It is like tissue something,
10 because I remember I specifically asked Linda some time
11 in the not-so-distant future to go down and clean that
12 bathroom because I think one of the boys had used the
13 bathroom and not flushed it. It was kind of yucko, so
14 she had gone down there. So I don't know if that is
15 her cleaning rag she left there or what.
16 TOM HANEY: Do you know for a fact that she
17 did clean it, could she have been in there since?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't remember that too
19 much about that bathroom.
20 TOM HANEY: When you were present she wasn't
21 in there?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. The door was usually
23 closed because that -- that door opens right when you
24 came down those steps. (Inaudible). There are a bunch
25 of smears on here.
0409
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to 205.
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing anything
4 like that there before seeing that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No, because I had that whole
6 downstairs painted, I mean cleaned.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: When was that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, 1994, before that home
9 tour, Christmas home tour.
10 TRIP DEMUTH: Who used that bathroom?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: The boys. You know, Burke and
12 Evan were down there playing with the trains. They
13 would go in there and use it.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: What do you mean that they had
15 not flushed that toilet, what do you mean by that?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think someone had gone
17 to the potty and hadn't flushed it. It was there for
18 several days.
19 TOM HANEY: Are we talking urine?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. It was just
21 reported to me. It was, mom, the bathroom is pretty
22 yucky, and Linda took care of it is the way I think it
23 went.
24 TRIP DEMUTH: How common was it for Evan and
25 Burke to not flush?
0410
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, Burke is pretty well
2 trained, because that is one of my big pet peeves, but
3 Evan I don't know about.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: What does that mean, Patsy,
5 when you say you don't know about?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know whether he
7 flushes regularly.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: That could imply, I don't know
9 about him because he doesn't flush, or I wanted to
10 clear that up.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I would believe
12 it was Evan that used it and didn't flush rather than
13 my son. I would like to believe that.
14 TRIP DEMUTH: Was it a more than one-time
15 occasion in this bathroom down there?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I just remember that one.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: When was that? It doesn't have
18 to be precise, I mean how long before Christmas?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I don't know
20 exactly. I just remember it happening.
21 TRIP DEMUTH: Right before Christmas?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I just can't remember. I just
23 remember the event that there was a dirty bathroom bowl
24 and obviously the boys were down there using it and not
25 flushing.
0411
1 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know, did Linda clean it
2 up, do you know?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I -- I am sure she did, but I
4 didn't go down there and double check it.
5 TOM HANEY: Is she usually pretty confident
6 if you give her something?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
8 TRIP DEMUTH: Had you been in this bathroom
9 at all prior to Christmas of '96?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I hadn't been in there.
11 You can tell I haven't been in there since '94.
12 TOM HANEY: Anything else? The tissue of
13 some kind.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
15 TOM HANEY: 246 now.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). Is that the hall
17 from here? No.
18 TRIP DEMUTH: That is a closer picture of the
19 wall.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, is it? Okay. It looks
21 dirty to me, that close up.
txsvicki
Active Member
Is this interview implying that there were fecal smears on the basement bathroom wall?
questfortrue
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The signs of some kind of disturbance in BR are, of course, there. What is different in BR from the description in the article referenced by OTG from a full fledge member of Group IV kids (the kids who obviously have BSP) is that he did well in school, there weren’t any reports of inappropriate behavior or violence at school which would have triggered a social service visit, and he had friends who were important to him. As far as little boys getting naked, and even showing themselves to other little boys, that doesn’t seem, imo, totally aberrant, but I can see it may be another detail contributing to the picture of BR.
However, it’s the toileting issues which speak so ominously about BR. Why was PR so unsuccessful in her toilet training with her children? PR was intelligent; she had access to family, friends, medical professionals who could have given her some good advice. What emerges for me is someone abusing both children and the consequent speculation as to what older person (adult or adolescent) may have abused them.
The reports about PR’s absence during cancer treatment include 1 item pertaining to BR’s unusual behavior, smearing feces on the shower walls. I wonder, was this separation anxiety or was someone inappropriately touching BR and evoking silent ‘rage’?
In another interview PR admits during questioning she wondered if JR could have molested JB while she was gone, but then adds that her mother Nedra slept in the twin bed next to JB, so JR couldn’t possibly have touched JB while she was gone. (A strange response, if I ever heard one).
No question the person with the most access to the children was PR. It was said that BR became better in his “accidents” after PR turned her attention to JB. But the evidence to support that isn’t really there. He was still wetting the bed sometimes and inappropriate toileting were still occurring (fecal matter in pajamas, e.g.) Another important statement in the referenced article is that children with SBP are totally compulsive about it and it doesn’t stop without professional intervention.
It’s been my belief for a long time that the sexual molestation of JB triggered what happened that Christmas night. The one thing which speaks loudly is that both PR and JR (but especially JR) totally denied that JB had been molested. It was something JR disavowed vigorously. Cover up/denial that someone in the family could have done that? Fear that someone might ‘finger’ him for it? Or other thoughts? All moo.
However, it’s the toileting issues which speak so ominously about BR. Why was PR so unsuccessful in her toilet training with her children? PR was intelligent; she had access to family, friends, medical professionals who could have given her some good advice. What emerges for me is someone abusing both children and the consequent speculation as to what older person (adult or adolescent) may have abused them.
The reports about PR’s absence during cancer treatment include 1 item pertaining to BR’s unusual behavior, smearing feces on the shower walls. I wonder, was this separation anxiety or was someone inappropriately touching BR and evoking silent ‘rage’?
In another interview PR admits during questioning she wondered if JR could have molested JB while she was gone, but then adds that her mother Nedra slept in the twin bed next to JB, so JR couldn’t possibly have touched JB while she was gone. (A strange response, if I ever heard one).
No question the person with the most access to the children was PR. It was said that BR became better in his “accidents” after PR turned her attention to JB. But the evidence to support that isn’t really there. He was still wetting the bed sometimes and inappropriate toileting were still occurring (fecal matter in pajamas, e.g.) Another important statement in the referenced article is that children with SBP are totally compulsive about it and it doesn’t stop without professional intervention.
It’s been my belief for a long time that the sexual molestation of JB triggered what happened that Christmas night. The one thing which speaks loudly is that both PR and JR (but especially JR) totally denied that JB had been molested. It was something JR disavowed vigorously. Cover up/denial that someone in the family could have done that? Fear that someone might ‘finger’ him for it? Or other thoughts? All moo.
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