Was Josh Seen Buying A LARGE Amount of Shrink Wrap?

[Bobbisangel]

Just a note, though the thought still sickens me to think, but since he won't show them where he went camping and the fact that he was gone and came back with chapped hands, I have often thought of this case and seems it is entirely possible to do at times without anyone even noticing?? I don't know..

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4170769&page=1

I have never posted a link so if it doesn't work look up Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach I think you will find her story. Sorry newbie here

I don't understand how a person can burn a body in their back yard in a fire pit and not have the neighbors smell it burning. How could that be? Josh probably didn't have a fire pit and if he had tried that his neighbors no doubt would have smelled it. Wasn't it a neighbor that had been over for dinner?

 

[LaLaw2000]

I don't understand how a person can burn a body in their back yard in a fire pit and not have the neighbors smell it burning. How could that be? Josh probably didn't have a fire pit and if he had tried that his neighbors no doubt would have smelled it. Wasn't it a neighbor that had been over for dinner?

O/T:

Seems they had several people over that night, Bobbisangel. This is a case I will never forget and am anxiously awaiting the trial.

 

[LaLaw2000]

As I mentioned earlier, it even occurred to me that a tranquilizer might make it possible to use shrinkwrap as a murder weapon :/ (yeesh...) but then again why, when you could just poison them all in one step kwim :sheesh:

arrot:

Hi, kiki.

Maybe Josh wrapped Susan's body tightly in the shrink wrap to transport her in the van in order to leave no scent. It would also make no mess in the van.

And I also think that Josh had either poisoned Susan or put a couple of tranquilizers in her drink at dinner.

JMO

 

[GrandmaTo4]

I'm wondering if the burning of the victim in a case like this is yet another act of rage or a way to cover up just some of the evidence. In any case, I brought up the notion of cremation because it might at least raise the questions of what they're looking for. I never meant to imply complete cremation, and am glad we now know that's out of the question.

(bbm)

Sure it could be an overt act of uncontrolled - or vindictive rage, grayjay.

But do you think Josh would be acting on his rage when he also had sleeping toddlers in the car during frigid weather?

I just think at that point, Josh would be more concerned with getting the heck away from the body as fast as possible more than he'd be beating up a dead body to salve his raging anger.

He's such a weirdo, I guess it's possible he returned in the rental car to incinerate the body.

IIRC, Josh's windburned hands were evident only after the rental car trip NOT the *S'Mores adventure.* However, in my opinion, the red/raw condition of the back of Josh's hands were too mildly and uniformly *burned* to have been caused from a high temperature torch.

Unless the body was cremated completely, what evidence could be eliminated more than the act of torching the body might connect josh to the murder even more?

Trace evidence, fibers, etc., would be eliminated -- but if Susan was murdered in the house the trace evidence would not be conclusive anyway.

The Hyoid bone could be burned away which would eliminate proof of strangulation -- but a strong whack in the neck with a tree branch could also destroy the Hyoid. Incomplete torching seems like an awful lot of conspicuous work to accomplishing very little:

Identification would not be compromised.
Gunshot or stab wounds would still be detectable.
Poisoning would still show up in the toxicology testing.
I can't think of a good reason to burn the body -- and now we know Josh recently purchased an acetylene torch which would highly incriminate him IF the body was burned.

Why would Josh torch the body unless he was soooo incredibly stoopid he assumed he could easily incinerate it completely?

I don't think he did. But if he tried, at least we know he failed.

 

[GrandmaTo4]

(snip, bbm) Hi grandma... For someone whose concern was that the body and it's evidence deteriorate as rapidly as possible in the wilds, s-wrap would be counterproductive. But for an OCD husband whose primary concern was getting his dead wife's body out of their home and disposed of while ensuring no forensic traces of death are left either at the scene nor inside their vehicle, rate of decomp may not have been uppermost in his mind... particularly if he intended in turn to either burn her remains or send her down a toboggan into a mine... :/ arrot:

(bbm)

I totally agree kiki!

IF Josh used shrink wrap, I'm sure it would have been to contain and transport her body without leaving her DNA, hairs, or bodily fluids in the back of the mini-van.

If Joshua was cunning he would have dumped her body and then used a razor blade to slit and remove the shrink wrap in order to put the *Welcome sign* out for the wild carnivorous animals.

Frankly, I like the poster's idea who said that Josh stuffed Susan in a sleeping bag and then wrapped her in a tarp. Josh didn't have the luxury of time to figure out the technically safest methods of disposal.

He had a big mess on the living room floor to thoroughly clean. IF it was blood it would have been an especially time consuming and horrendous stain to clean up.

I just cannot make myself believe that Susan's murder was premeditated for more than a few hours, at most. It certainly was NOT an accident -- but was likely a simmering rage killing by a narcissistic sociopath who that day realized he was losing the last of his power and control.

Isn't it interesting that the employees at the hardware store where Josh often shopped hated to wait on him? Apparently, when Josh thought he had the upper-hand, the power, he was a *nasty, demanding bear* to work with. Can you imagine how he treated Susan behind closed doors?

I certainly hope that all the remote city dumpsters were carefully checked on the days immediately following Susan's disappearance. I'm not at all convinced that Susan was dumped in the faraway, dangerous wilderness.

It took months and months of constant landfill searching to find bits and pieces of Lori Hacking. Her mother had a total of 15 pounds of bone fragments to bury. Joshua would have been well aware of that tragic, forensics-destroying-dumping.

It seems quite evident that Josh was lazy - was a user - and had continuous problems holding a decent job. I'm hoping that his disposal of Susan will not be anymore successful than any of his other cowardly, lackluster accomplishments.

 

[GrandmaTo4]

I just figured out WHY he bought the torch! And I am not kidding! He bought it to make the S'Moures!

Lol pixie I suggested this jokingly (re Josh using torch to melt the marshmallows,' post #51) but of course knowing in reality he purchased it the following day Monday Dec 7th--after the camping trip.

Hey PickieChickie and kiki,

IMO, you're RIGHT! And I'm not kidding either! _ :dance:

I seriously think that torch could very well have been purchased to make the S'Mores. Josh didn't return home until late afternoon on Monday, the 7th. If he took the children to a secluded city park on Monday and toasted the marshmallows with the torch, the kids would have been just as happy as if Josh would have built a bonfire.

It was so cold, the boys probably spent all their time in the van anyway. They may not have even seen how Josh melted the marshmallows.

I really believe the chances the torch was used for S'Mores was much more likely than to burn a body - or to cut through chains or gates.

Leave it to Josh to do everything the easiest way possible! _ :loser:

 

[grayjay]

I seriously think that torch could very well have been purchased to make the S'Mores. Josh didn't return home until late afternoon on Monday, the 7th. If he took the children to a secluded city park on Monday and toasted the marshmallows with the torch, the kids would have been just as happy as if Josh would have built a bonfire.

It was so cold, the boys probably spent all their time in the van anyway. They may not have even seen how Josh melted the marshmallows.

I really believe the chances the torch was used for S'Mores was much more likely than to burn a body - or to cut through chains or gates.

Leave it to Josh to do everything the easiest way possible! _ :loser:

OK. So Josh is lazy and the boys seem to not be buying the camping trip story he wants to pass off and are wondering already where is mommy. So a trip to the hardware store and "the forest" gives them the experience of a camping trip and they'll believe they've been on a big adventure and now they understand where she is. This fits with those who said they thought he was driving around WVC a lot, too, which never made sense to me.

I wonder if he gave the boys some sweet cherry syrup so they'd sleep while he was busy, and yes, the generator would be for keeping them warm. The generator buy and the shrink wrap buy would both be signs of a planned eventuality, even if it's not planned for a specific day at that point.

 

[PickieChickie]

Hey PickieChickie and kiki,

IMO, you're RIGHT! And I'm not kidding either! _ :dance:

I seriously think that torch could very well have been purchased to make the S'Mores. Josh didn't return home until late afternoon on Monday, the 7th. If he took the children to a secluded city park on Monday and toasted the marshmallows with the torch, the kids would have been just as happy as if Josh would have built a bonfire.

It was so cold, the boys probably spent all their time in the van anyway. They may not have even seen how Josh melted the marshmallows.

I really believe the chances the torch was used for S'Mores was much more likely than to burn a body - or to cut through chains or gates.

Leave it to Josh to do everything the easiest way possible! _ :loser:

I have a friend who uses a handheld cutting torch to start the fire in his woodburning stove. If JP didn't take dry firewood with him, and didn't buy any but was relying on whatever he could gather, which would have been wet kindling and seasoned but wet wood, he may have purchased it to start the campfire to keep warm and make the S'moures.

If JP purchased the cutting torch on Monday morning to use for cutting open a grate to a shut off mine or any other unusual task that would take quite some time, how would he explain this activity to the boys (who were sure to talk about it later) unless he drugged them so they were asleep?

Surely JP didn't still have Susan's body in the van after sunup! How would he explain lugging Susan's body around to the boys?

Whatever JP did with Susan's body had to have been done while it was still dark and while the boys slept, in the cover of night.

And, why would JP take all the time necessary to cut open then reseal a heavy, iron grate, something that would have been noticeable to anyone inspecting the grate in the future, when there are hundreds of other places he could have disposed of her; including dropping her down an abandoned well or pushing her off a steep cliff?

 

[fran]

Maybe we're giving Josh more credit than he deserves. After all, from what I think I read, the Powells had only recently began camping. So Josh may not be all that knowledgeable about the outdoors, etc. Maybe he did just buy the torch to make smores, or to start a fire.

There was another recent case out of NC that took them a year to find the wife. Because of the vast and extensive search done, during the course of that entire year, I might add, many thought the husband had placed her in an abandond well. But, again the husband was given more credit than he deserved. When she was found, her body had just been tossed in an area that wasn't traveled much and it took someone just stumbling on her by accident.

I'm pleased to see that LE is out searching and I wish them luck. But I still feel it may be spring or summer before Susan is found.

JMHO
fran

 

[kiki the parrot]

(bbm)

I totally agree kiki!

IF Josh used shrink wrap, I'm sure it would have been to contain and transport her body without leaving her DNA, hairs, or bodily fluids in the back of the mini-van.

If Joshua was cunning he would have dumped her body and then used a razor blade to slit and remove the shrink wrap in order to put the *Welcome sign* out for the wild carnivorous animals.

Frankly, I like the poster's idea who said that Josh stuffed Susan in a sleeping bag and then wrapped her in a tarp. Josh didn't have the luxury of time to figure out the technically safest methods of disposal.

He had a big mess on the living room floor to thoroughly clean. IF it was blood it would have been an especially time consuming and horrendous stain to clean up.

I just cannot make myself believe that Susan's murder was premeditated for more than a few hours, at most. It certainly was NOT an accident -- but was likely a simmering rage killing by a narcissistic sociopath who that day realized he was losing the last of his power and control.

Isn't it interesting that the employees at the hardware store where Josh often shopped hated to wait on him? Apparently, when Josh thought he had the upper-hand, the power, he was a *nasty, demanding bear* to work with. Can you imagine how he treated Susan behind closed doors?

I certainly hope that all the remote city dumpsters were carefully checked on the days immediately following Susan's disappearance. I'm not at all convinced that Susan was dumped in the faraway, dangerous wilderness.

It took months and months of constant landfill searching to find bits and pieces of Lori Hacking. Her mother had a total of 15 pounds of bone fragments to bury. Joshua would have been well aware of that tragic, forensics-destroying-dumping.

It seems quite evident that Josh was lazy - was a user - and had continuous problems holding a decent job. I'm hoping that his disposal of Susan will not be anymore successful than any of his other cowardly, lackluster accomplishments.

Agree w bolded GMTA (Grandma's Minds Think Alike LOL) I don't think it was blood he's more the soft kill (or poisoning) type IMO. I think it was more likely vomit (he could never have gotten every trace w/out luminol detecting, and a large bleed out would seem sufficient probable cause for LE to have made an arrest by now). In all probability he either suffocated, strangled and/or poisoned her IMO he is too OCD to do anything very messy (he was probably po'd there was any leakage of bodily fluids and went to work furiously cleaning that nite w the boys' poor mother stuffed in the back of the van inside garage). :furious:

The one point I might differ w is the distance to which I believe JP was willing to travel--I do agree that he is inept, disorganized and fails to follow thru but because often (tho as we've seen not always) the more closely perp can be linked to his victim, the greater the need for "distancing" where disposal is concerned. And when it's a crime of rage caused by loss of self-control in their own home, exerting control in executing the perfect cover-up became critical. But even more importantly in this case in order to outwit everyone--but especially his wife. I believe JP had long felt inferior to Susan and grew more frustrated and jealous over the years due to Susan's friendships and superior abilities and comparative intelligence. I firmly believe he is a narcissistic sociopath whose envy consumed him. Because he is such a control freak--and murdering his wife to him the ultimate power play--I think it was for him a personal challenge from which he would have derived a great deal of satisfaction out of getting away w it and went to EXTREME lengths (w the aid of his father's advice, I feel sure) to ensure that he one-upped Susan and outsmarted his wife (and LE) and lived happily ever after, with their boys and without her... that's JMO though.

Grandma's are no slackers lol, you've got a lot of wisdom friend, hey they don't call us "grandma" for nothin :biggrin: :dance:

:grandma: :grandma:

arrot:

 

[nosylla]

Came upon this article... http://www.forensiccrimescene.com/erase-blood-evidence/

Just wonder if investigators checked his debit/credit charges or shopping receipts for Surf laundry detergent.

Just a thought. That along with his shopping excursion for the stretch wrap and the blow torch...hope they looked for Surf detergent or a detergent that contains "active oxygen".

I feel that that Sunday... it went like this. Josh... Not going to church.. planning all day the whole crime. Wanting the boys to stay home with him that day also indicates to me that he wanted to really 'bond' with the boys, knowing he was taking mommy away for good later that day. Prep the meds he was going to lace her pancakes with. That long prep time for the meal with J and Susan and the boys..

The carpet shampooer... I imagine they tested it as well.

 

[kiki the parrot]

aw geeez nosylla... that article reads like a really morbid commercial script, eeesh...

It makes even me want to buy this brand but not for nefarious reasons of course but if it works that well... :iamashamed0005:

Sorry... btw I sure hope I'm never wrongly accused of a crime and have my computer seized, I mean the things I research on an almost routine basis.... how to erase blood evidence, poisons, shrinkwrap murders, decomp, cadaver dogs, body disposal... good grief!!

 

[grayjay]

aw geeez nosylla... that article reads like a really morbid commercial script, eeesh...

It makes even me want to buy this brand but not for nefarious reasons of course but if it works that well... :iamashamed0005:

Sorry... btw I sure hope I'm never wrongly accused of a crime and have my computer seized, I mean the things I research on an almost routine basis.... how to erase blood evidence, poisons, shrinkwrap murders, decomp, cadaver dogs, body disposal... good grief!!

LOL Well said! If JP read that and thought he had it made in the shade, he's toast already and just doesn't know it yet. Yes in the washing machine but not really where there's a porous undercarpet and wood flooring. I've seen the blood go through a hardwood floor and into the basement below.

Yes, all you sinister people, gather ye here. :croc:

 

[PickieChickie]

aw geeez nosylla... that article reads like a really morbid commercial script, eeesh...

It makes even me want to buy this brand but not for nefarious reasons of course but if it works that well... :iamashamed0005:

Sorry... btw I sure hope I'm never wrongly accused of a crime and have my computer seized, I mean the things I research on an almost routine basis.... how to erase blood evidence, poisons, shrinkwrap murders, decomp, cadaver dogs, body disposal... good grief!!

Me too! And, it seems like the Susan Powell discussions have come to a dead still since we aren't allowed to participate in a general discussion. I'm really disappointed about the decision to lock that down. How about you? :waitasec::banghead:

 

[kiki the parrot]

I have a friend who uses a handheld cutting torch to start the fire in his woodburning stove. If JP didn't take dry firewood with him, and didn't buy any but was relying on whatever he could gather, which would have been wet kindling and seasoned but wet wood, he may have purchased it to start the campfire to keep warm and make the S'moures.

If JP purchased the cutting torch on Monday morning to use for cutting open a grate to a shut off mine or any other unusual task that would take quite some time, how would he explain this activity to the boys (who were sure to talk about it later) unless he drugged them so they were asleep?

Surely JP didn't still have Susan's body in the van after sunup! How would he explain lugging Susan's body around to the boys?

Whatever JP did with Susan's body had to have been done while it was still dark and while the boys slept, in the cover of night.

And, why would JP take all the time necessary to cut open then reseal a heavy, iron grate, something that would have been noticeable to anyone inspecting the grate in the future, when there are hundreds of other places he could have disposed of her; including dropping her down an abandoned well or pushing her off a steep cliff?

(bbm) I responded to similar post (don't think you were reading here yet) but just want to emphasize again that children four years or as young as two, are highly suggestible, not suspicious in nature, and therefore rarely question adults but take them at their word or at face value. If daddy says "c'mon sons... we're goin camping," and daddy carries them to the family van and places them in the first row of seating in their two forward facing carseats after having stowed w/e isn't visible to them anyway in the rear cargo area at which point they all begin driving some distance into the night any point during which daddy stops, serves s'mores made w a torch but particularly after being up late and having traveled... they're just gonna think they're "camping!"

"Oh sorry boys, it's a bit of a blizzard out there... shucks you fellas are gonna have to stay inside the van where it's warm and cozy so go back to sleep while daddy takes out the tent and goes in search of wood..."

(One hour later........)

"Boys? You awake yet? Aw gee I didn't mean to wake you... daddy's hands got so cold I had to come back w/out the wood but don't you worry boys we're still camping! Isn't this a superadventure?! Too bad mommy couldn't come!"
:angel:
I mean seriously, the two year-old only recently turned two IIRC... and this is just not hard to pull off... all they see are lots of woods, trees and snow... no drugs, real firewood, or other extensive "props" necessary. Especially after being kept up much later than usual all that was needed was sufficient warmth so the boys could finally sleep (and I agree with whomever said this may also have been a reason for taking generator.)

arrot:

 

[PickieChickie]

(bbm) I responded to similar post (don't think you were reading here yet) but just want to emphasize again that children four years or as young as two, are highly suggestible, not suspicious in nature, and therefore rarely question adults but take them at their word or at face value. If daddy says "c'mon sons... we're goin camping," and daddy carryies them to the family van and places them in the first row of seating in their forward facing carseats after having stowed w/e isn't visible to them anyway in the rear cargo area at which point they all begin driving some distance into the night any point during which daddy stops, serves s'mores made w a torch but particularly after being up late and having traveled and provided there's sufficient heat) they're just gonna think they're "camping."

"Oh sorry boys, it's a bit of a blizzard out there... oh shucks you boys are gonna have to stay inside the van where it's warm and cozy so go back to sleep while daddy takes out the tent and goes in search of firewood..."

(One hour later........)

"Boys? You awake yet? Aw gee I didn't mean to wake you... daddy's hands got so cold I had to come back w/out the wood but don't you worry boys we're still camping! Isn't this a superadventure?! Too bad mommy couldn't come!"
:angel:
I mean seriously, the two year-old only recently turned two IIRC... and this is just not hard to pull off--provided there was sufficient warmth. (Which I agree with whomever said this may also have been a reason for taking generator.)

arrot:

I agree it is pretty easy to fool little kids. But, you can't fool the cops. I think he wanted Susan's body out of that van as soon as possible and before daylight! Surely JP knew the children would be questioned at a later date about their activities.

I still can't figure out what he used the generator for. That's baffling!

 

[kiki the parrot]

No doubt he went to elaborate (OCDish) lengths to fool LE--ie to prevent transfer of any trace evidence from while she was transported inside van, and to conceal his activities as much as possible.

If you're far enough out in Timbuktoo I don't imagine even first light would've been such an issue actually. In any case, I just think they would have kept the van had they been able to find anything there.

arrot:

 

[RayO]

I have a friend who uses a handheld cutting torch to start the fire in his woodburning stove. If JP didn't take dry firewood with him, and didn't buy any but was relying on whatever he could gather, which would have been wet kindling and seasoned but wet wood, he may have purchased it to start the campfire to keep warm and make the S'moures.

Are you sure it was a cutting torch? For that purpose one might use a more pedestrian propane torch. A cutting torch uses other gases like acetylene and oxygen to get a much hotter flame. Only tasks like metal cutting and welding require such a hot flame.

 

[PickieChickie]

No doubt he went to elaborate (OCDish) lengths to fool LE--ie to prevent transfer of any trace evidence from while she was transported inside van, and to conceal his activities as much as possible.

If you're far enough out in Timbuktoo I don't imagine even first light would've been such an issue actually. In any case, I just think they would have kept the van had they been able to find anything there.

arrot:

I was thinking he might have brought the generator and a really long, heavy duty extension cord with a drop light so he could see to put her in a cave or down a mine. Clearly he felt the need to come up with a reason to explain why he brought a generator with him. If the generator had been used before, they generally smell and I wouldn't want to take one in an enclosed vehicle for the bad fumes they put off.

Taking a generator with him to test it is about the dumbest excuse I've heard of. You buy a new generator, the first thing most people would do would be to fire it up at home to make sure it works, not put it in a van with two little kids and take it and a container of gas out in the middle of nowhere to test it!

 

[badhorsie]

Why was the General Discussion shut down?:waitasec:

No offence intended-I am just curious...