"We Didn't Mean for This to Happen"

[dingo]

Here are a couple of links to the Patricia Letters, at least parts of them. I haven't used the links in years, can't remember. But first, quoting one paragraph from your above post, "Eagle, I wish you would stop saying the R's - Patsy AND John I mean. I am quite, quite certain that John knew absolutely NOTHING. But equally, I think Patsy knew a LOT."

No offense taken but as we've said before,very recently when you felt Narlacat was getting too rough, lets never forget our very strict rules here! And other people also say Patsy and John, just to be on the safe side, including Dingo. IMO we can't be at all certain P didn't tell J things, were only theorizing when we said she PROBABLY didn't tell him IF there was a photographer appointment. Which wouldn't have made sense, with all they had planned, as someone above has said, but we just can't know for sure. Now the links, and you'll no doubt find others from there if interested. Have a great day.

http://jbr-subculture.tripod.com/cheesyApril1999.htm

http://www.acandyrose.com/patricia1999phenomenon.htm

.
Why do you feel the need to single me out???

 

[aussiesheila]

Here are a couple of links to the Patricia Letters, at least parts of them. I haven't used the links in years, can't remember. But first, quoting one paragraph from your above post, "Eagle, I wish you would stop saying the R's - Patsy AND John I mean. I am quite, quite certain that John knew absolutely NOTHING. But equally, I think Patsy knew a LOT."

Whoops, Eagle I'm very sorry, this was not meant to be offensive, more kind of teasing argumentative, I'm sorry if it didn't come across this way. You are one of the few people who have not completely dismissed my theory because it is far-fetched. You have taken the trouble to consider it and even if you don't agree with it you have never been rude about it and I thank you for that. Please, I did not mean to offend you. I hope you will accept my apology.

No offense taken but as we've said before,very recently when you felt Narlacat was getting too rough, lets never forget our very strict rules here! And other people also say Patsy and John, just to be on the safe side, including Dingo. IMO we can't be at all certain P didn't tell J things, were only theorizing when we said she PROBABLY didn't tell him IF there was a photographer appointment. Which wouldn't have made sense, with all they had planned, as someone above has said, but we just can't know for sure. Now the links, and you'll no doubt find others from there if interested. Have a great day.

http://jbr-subculture.tripod.com/cheesyApril1999.htm

http://www.acandyrose.com/patricia1999phenomenon.htm

Thank you so much for the links Eagle, I'll go off and read them now.

 

[Eagle1]

I do like your theory, AussieSheila, in the Members' Theories slot.

Dingo, sorry, wasn't trying to single you out.

Re above links to Patricia Letters, I really do think Patsy wrote them, because she was being forced by John and SOME kind of circumstance to keep quiet about someone and she just had to vent. (Way back in the Chandra Levy-Condit case, we discussed at various forums that someone with diplomatic or agency immunity that it's illegal to "out" may have been somehow involved. It was just speculation, of course, as is this, and PR may not even know exactly who the caller is. The mastermind? Just a thought.)

 

[sharpar]

If Patsy didnt write them she knows exactly who did. All of the " mystery " about them is contrived and silly . Someone thinks the entire world is occupied by morons . JMO

 

[narlacat]

<<Dingo, sorry, wasn't trying to single you out.>>

Well, why did you then..
You'd do well to leave my name out of your posts too Eagle.
Thanks.

 

[Eagle1]

Hi Eagle1, we were talking about this on another thread weren't we. I was very surprised to read the differing responses to the meaning of "We didn't mean for this to happen".

I just immediately assumed that the "this" referred to the death of JonBenet and that the "we" was a Freudian slip, in that she inadvertently admitted that she was involved with those whom she knew were responsible for the crime.

That's what I assumed too. We think a lot alike. Sorry, I can't remember discussing this in another thread. Unless that's where I posted the link to The Patricia Letters. Oh yeah.

I'm just still trying to find out any other ideas about meanings. Seems to be a Freudian slip to me too, indicating the R's knew in general who did it, but I'm not positive she knows EXACTLY which one of a lot of suspects. Someone kept phoning Patsy during the Grand Jury, who seemed a lot more nervous that the R's were. I don't think she could just completely make him up, unheard-of things. Unprecedented. One of a kind, maybe. And she probably didn't especially expect to be believed, or was afraid of the person having some kind of connections, tried to be anonymous.

Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction, maybe new kinds of mental illness developing since Freud, for all we know. They've changed the word psychopath to sociopath. If anyone's had any recent courses in abnormal psych, I for one would enjoy having you post.

 

[aussiesheila]

I do like your theory, AussieSheila, in the Members' Theories slot.

Dingo, sorry, wasn't trying to single you out.

Re above links to Patricia Letters, I really do think Patsy wrote them, because she was being forced by John and SOME kind of circumstance to keep quiet about someone and she just had to vent. (Way back in the Chandra Levy-Condit case, we discussed at various forums that someone with diplomatic or agency immunity that it's illegal to "out" may have been somehow involved. It was just speculation, of course, as is this, and PR may not even know exactly who the caller is. The mastermind? Just a thought.)

I went and read that ACandyRose link Eagle (I couldn't open the other one), and I have to say that they look as though they were written by cranks to me. There was one writer who I thought looked genuine though, and that was Amanda, I'd like check her out a bit further.

I don't think any of the letters were written by Patsy. I don't think she wanted to give vent to anything and don't think she wanted to find JonBenet's killer(s) either, since she would have been in danger of having her role in her daughter's death exposed. John would have found out about the prior sexual abuse by the close friend and the family member, and would have realised that Patsy knew about it, even though she would profess complete ignorance. He would have ended their marriage and got custody of Burke, leaving Patsy with nothing. Patsy was well aware of this and would do anything to prevent that from happening, which was why she was coaxed into being complicit in the coverup, IMO

Now that Burke is becoming more of an independent adult and as Patsy's illness takes over, she will have less to lose in speaking up; her own self-interest might take second place to obtaining justice for her daughter's death and she might speak out, but it might not. Perhaps if the marriage falls apart anyway, she might write another book that 'reveals all', naturally with the most favourable spin on her own role in JonBenet's life and death.

 

[Eagle1]

......
John would have found out about the prior sexual abuse by the close friend and the family member, and would have realised that Patsy knew about it, even though she would profess complete ignorance. He would have ended their marriage and got custody of Burke, leaving Patsy with nothing. Patsy was well aware of this and would do anything to prevent that from happening, which was why she was coaxed into being complicit in the coverup, IMO...Now that Burke is becoming more of an independent adult and as Patsy's illness takes over, she will have less to lose in speaking up; her own self-interest might take second place to obtaining justice for her daughter's death and she might speak out, but it might not...... Perhaps if the marriage falls apart anyway, she might write another book that 'reveals all', naturally with the most favourable spin on her own role in JonBenet's life and death.

Must say you're certainly imaginative and creative,, AussieS. Are you into any of the arts? Music, art, as I am, writing?

It's been such a long time since I read the Patricia Letters I don't remember any Amanda.

You didn't notice the one real nut case, the caller, who really stood out? Maybe all of the letters weren't at that link. Once you've read the ones about him, it becomes obvious Patsy wrote them. Who else would a nervous perp be calling while worried about the Grand Jury which was meeting right then? To me it seems obvious he's afraid something will be revealed. Did you read about his claiming to have visited JonBenet's grave, and the noise he made that was "not of this world"? To me, he's what the letters are all about. I may not have been very interested until he came up, reason I don't remember Amanda.

If it's all true, I can't believe he'd show himself at the party on the 23rd, and maybe he didn't! Hey, I'm having a brand-new thought myself, thanks to inspiration from you.

Maybe he broke in that night, a spook or the jackal, if you know what I mean, kept out of sight but was watching when JonBenet maybe went to the bathroom or something, away from the group.

McSanta's wife said she came upon JonBenet sitting on the back stairs crying, and claimed she answered when asked why, "I don't feel pretty." I think someone had molested her and told her he couldn't help it because she was so pretty. Maybe hurt her, as "he" did with the paint brush later. Just another possible theory.

In the Bruce Willis version of The Jackal, he'd done something to a woman, I can't remember what, and told the good guy, "You can't protect your women." His motive for hurting her had been to throw that into the good guy's face.

I just saw a little of it. Should rent the video, I know, but it gets shown here once in a while.

 

[aussiesheila]

I highly doubt Patsy met anyone for a late-night photo session on Christmas night. Common sense alone can rule this out.

First off, they'd be tired from spending their day on Christmas itself, and visiting people, dropping off gifts, attending parties, etc. Who'd want to stay up late on Christmas night for photos, especially of the child after everyone is sleeping, including the child?

Second, they were planning on getting up early to fly to Michigan and meet up with the rest of the kids and spend Christmas with them. Who'd want to stay up late for photos, keeping the child up as well, when they have to get up early and will be busy all day as soon as they do?

I don't think this would bother Patsy. My guess is that she would have reasoned that JonBenet could catch up on her sleep during the plane flight. I think that if Patsy thought this photographer was well-known and highly regarded, and that being photographed by him would advance JonBenet's career, she would be all for it even if it was slightly inconvenient to her.

Third, why would Patsy be so desperate for this photo session that she's keeping herself and her young daughter up late for it, and keeps it a secret from her husband? Patsy didn't need to meet anyone else's deadlines, and I cannot see her going out of her way to accommodate some photographer like this when she already had portfolios of pictures of JonBenet and all the time in the world to go to any photographer she wanted when they returned home. And if she wanted to keep it secret from her husband, she'd do it during the week and just wouldn't tell him - she wouldn't arrange for a secret late-night session while her husband sleeps upstairs.

The idea of them meeting some photographer for a late-night camera session on Christmas night with a trip planned early the next day doesn't make any sense to me. I can't see that as being what happened here.

I think the story she was told was that it had to be that night for the photographer otherwise he wasn't interested, other than that I think they made the whole idea of it very appealing to Patsy. For instance, she might have been told that this photographer was doing pictures of Santa at Christmas for a magazine article that JonBenet would feature in and that all the photographer would need would be an hour or so with Santa and JonBenet.

So while Patsy was able to buy as many portfolios of JonBenet as she wanted, getting her featured in some fancy upmarket glossy magazine was not something she could do without the help of someone like this apparently influential and well-connected photographer. This I think would have been a huge incentive for her.

I can't buy into the idea that PR was allowing her daughter to be used as a sex toy for pedophiles, either. There would be no gain in it for her, and Patsy wouldn't put herself or her daughter out for anything that didn't benefit them somehow.

I think when you say that PR was allowing her daughter to be used as a sex toy for pedophiles it puts the wrong spin on what I have proposed. First of all, I think that Patsy, and possibly one or both of her sisters, were sexually abused by their own father. IMO Patsy never dealt with the effects of the abuse and hadn't even acknowledged that it had happened to her. So that when her own father started abusing JonBenet, as I believe he did, she was powerless to stop it. I think all her visits to Dr Beuf were some kind of feeble attempt to address the issue, even though they unfortunately did not have that effect. The abuse that then began by their supposed best friend was just an extension of a situation that Patsy did not ever have the strength to stand up against IMO.

 

[aussiesheila]

Must say you're certainly imaginative and creative,, AussieS. Are you into any of the arts? Music, art, as I am, writing?

It's been such a long time since I read the Patricia Letters I don't remember any Amanda.

Sorry it was 2 weeks ago that I skimmed through them, maybe I've got the name wrong.

You didn't notice the one real nut case, the caller, who really stood out? Maybe all of the letters weren't at that link. Once you've read the ones about him, it becomes obvious Patsy wrote them. Who else would a nervous perp be calling while worried about the Grand Jury which was meeting right then? To me it seems obvious he's afraid something will be revealed. Did you read about his claiming to have visited JonBenet's grave, and the noise he made that was "not of this world"? To me, he's what the letters are all about. I may not have been very interested until he came up, reason I don't remember Amanda.

If it's all true, I can't believe he'd show himself at the party on the 23rd, and maybe he didn't! Hey, I'm having a brand-new thought myself, thanks to inspiration from you.

Maybe he broke in that night, a spook or the jackal, if you know what I mean, kept out of sight but was watching when JonBenet maybe went to the bathroom or something, away from the group.

McSanta's wife said she came upon JonBenet sitting on the back stairs crying, and claimed she answered when asked why, "I don't feel pretty." I think someone had molested her and told her he couldn't help it because she was so pretty. Maybe hurt her, as "he" did with the paint brush later. Just another possible theory.

In the Bruce Willis version of The Jackal, he'd done something to a woman, I can't remember what, and told the good guy, "You can't protect your women." His motive for hurting her had been to throw that into the good guy's face.

I just saw a little of it. Should rent the video, I know, but it gets shown here once in a while.

Maybe I did miss some of the letters. I would have if they weren't all in the ACandyRose link as that was the only one I could open.

In answer to your other comments - what goes on in the minds of humans is fascinating. What I find most interesting is how at odds it seems to me to be with the idea that human actions are governed by 'free will'.

 

[capps]

Quote by Aussiesheila:
"I think the story she was told was that it had to be that night for the photographer otherwise he wasn't interested, other than that I think they made the whole idea of it very appealing to Patsy. For instance, she might have been told that this photographer was doing pictures of Santa at Christmas for a magazine article that JonBenet would feature in and that all the photographer would need would be an hour or so with Santa and JonBenet."

Aussiesheila,

Don't you think Patsy,or any parent for that matter,would be highly suspicious of a photographer who claims the only time they can take these pictures of your 6 yr old daughter is on Christmas night after 10:00 pm?

Also,for this hour or so,while they were killing JonBenet,what was Patsy doing? Taking a nap? Reading a book? Then after an hour or so,they call Patsy down to the basement,she sees they killed JonBenet,and coerce her into writing a ranson note,and then she bids them farewell?

Does this really sound feasible to you?

This isn't a mystery novel,where you get to throw in anything you like,to make up an ending.

 

[aussiesheila]

Here are a couple of links to the Patricia Letters, at least parts of them. I haven't used the links in years, can't remember.
http://jbr-subculture.tripod.com/cheesyApril1999.htm

http://www.acandyrose.com/patricia1999phenomenon.htm

OK Eagle, I have gone back and had a proper look at the acandyrose site. I must admit it read it in a real hurry the first time and it wasn't clear to me just who was writing what. Now I've taken the time to read it again properly I understand.

You know who I am going to say was posing as Patricia don't you? Yes, one or more of the pedophile cover-uppers. I think they submitted the photos of the 2 graves to that website in October 1998 hoping it would give them the opportunity to disseminate information that would throw suspicion on someone else as the being the killer. Unfortunately I have been unable to read exactly what 'Patricia' wrote. I'm sure it would be really interesting.

In a previous post I mentioned that I wanted to check out "Amanda" a bit further. She also went by the hats MandyArt/WebbSpyder/Webbsleuther/Lilly and posted this on the ACandyRose forum about the man she repeatedly saw at JonBenet's graveside "....I have not taken any photos, but have compared the photos of Paugh with the appearance of the man. Everything fits,..."

I am grateful to you for directing me to this site Eagle because I have found another piece to "my" jigsaw. I had been thinking that on the night of the 25th/26th that possibly DP arrived at the Ramsay house with Santa, and was there when JonBenet was killed. But after reading "Amanda's" post (who I think was also helping in the coverup) I realise he probably wasn't. I think the coveruppers knew he was a pedophile, but were prepared to frame him for the murder as they were now getting rather desperate.

The perpetrators had first tried to hide the sexual abuse and make the killing look as though a kidnapper had done it. Then when the body was found still in the house and the sexual abuse became obvious they tried to convince people that John Ramsey was a pedophile and that he or Patsy had done it. When after an intensive investigation into John Ramsey turned up not a shred of evidence of sexually perverted behaviour, they tried to frame a dead Helgoth. When that didn't work, there was some story of JBR and a boat put about. Two and a half years down the track and they were now desperate enough to try to frame another (live) pedophile and so pointed the finger at DP. Anyway that's what it looks like to me.

 

[Paradox]

What I find most interesting is how at odds it seems to me to be with the idea that human actions are governed by 'free will'.

Then what governs us?

 

[aussiesheila]

Quote by Aussiesheila:
"I think the story she was told was that it had to be that night for the photographer otherwise he wasn't interested, other than that I think they made the whole idea of it very appealing to Patsy. For instance, she might have been told that this photographer was doing pictures of Santa at Christmas for a magazine article that JonBenet would feature in and that all the photographer would need would be an hour or so with Santa and JonBenet."

Aussiesheila,

Don't you think Patsy,or any parent for that matter,would be highly suspicious of a photographer who claims the only time they can take these pictures of your 6 yr old daughter is on Christmas night after 10:00 pm?

Also,for this hour or so,while they were killing JonBenet,what was Patsy doing? Taking a nap? Reading a book? Then after an hour or so,they call Patsy down to the basement,she sees they killed JonBenet,and coerce her into writing a ranson note,and then she bids them farewell?

Does this really sound feasible to you?

This isn't a mystery novel,where you get to throw in anything you like,to make up an ending.

I agree that most parents wouldn't consider the idea of their child posing for such photographs at any time, let alone late at night. But Patsy wasn't most parents. IMO Patsy was a parent who exploited her daughter's beauty in a world where physical attractiveness, especially for females, is a means of gaining acceptance, approval and personal advancement, a world where people feel it's perfectly OK for males to gaze lustily on performing females even if they are still only children. I can imagine Patsy being enthralled at the idea of her daughter's image being featured in some fancy magazine and quite comfortable with the idea of her being alone with adult males if there was something to be gained by it.

Patsy also seemed pretty chummy with that weird Santa that I think most parents would be very wary of. I can imagine Patsy opening the kitchen door to him after John was safely asleep for the night, serving him tea in the kitchen, then sitting with him and JonBenet waiting for the photographer. I can imagine her getting sleepy after a while and being coaxed into lying down on the sofa in the loungeroom, allowing JonBenet to continue the wait for the photographer alone with Santa. I can imagine Patsy falling into a deep sleep after her long day and remaining there until she was woken by the scream at 2 am.

I can imagine in those hellish first hours after JonBenet was killed, that Patsy would have been told that if she didn't write the ransom note that John would be told all manner of hideous stories about her including that she had made JonBenet available for molestation, that John would file for divorce and custody of Burke and would most likely win and that she, Patsy would be left with nothing. I can imagine that Patsy would have been left in no doubt that her best option was to do as she was told and write the ransom note, which IMO, she did.

Capps, if you are waiting for an ordinary explanation for this extra-ordinary murder you will be waiting for a very long time IMO.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I could maybe see aussiesheila's scenario if Patsy had been desperate to get her child photographed and into pageants...but she wasn't. JonBenet's position as a child beauty pageant winner had been established by Christmas of 1996.

She already had portfolios with professional photographs of JonBenet in them - why would she put herself and her child out like this on Christmas night (of all nights) with a trip scheduled for early the next morning?

She wouldn't. She would arrange for a photo session at a decent hour when they got back.

 

[Eagle1]

.......

You know who I am going to say was posing as Patricia don't you? Yes, one or more of the pedophile cover-uppers. I think they submitted the photos of the 2 graves to that website in October 1998 hoping it would give them the opportunity to disseminate information that would throw suspicion on someone else as the being the killer. Unfortunately I have been unable to read exactly what 'Patricia' wrote. I'm sure it would be really interesting.

In a previous post I mentioned that I wanted to check out "Amanda" a bit further. She also went by the hats MandyArt/WebbSpyder/Webbsleuther/Lilly and posted this on the ACandyRose forum about the man she repeatedly saw at JonBenet's graveside "....I have not taken any photos, but have compared the photos of Paugh with the appearance of the man. Everything fits,..."
I am grateful to you for directing me to this site Eagle because I have found another piece to "my" jigsaw. .........
Two and a half years down the track and they were now desperate enough to try to frame another (live) pedophile and so pointed the finger at DP. Anyway that's what it looks like to me.

DP I'm assuming is Donald Paugh. I don't remember Amanda or this theory but can agree it's possible. It's good when others read the letters and notice things that I didn't, and vice versa. Between us all we might get something from them that's a little off the beaten track.

Can't find your post that was Emailed asking did I mean a man or a woman, so just let me say in this one that I'd say most likely a man.

 

[sharpar]

I believe the letters / phone calls were all contrived by Patsy or someone she was using - S Stine perhaps . It was smoke and mirrors, nothing to it . The murder was committed by the one person who should have been protecting her.


Patsy - you doth protest too much !

 

[clueless]

I can imagine her (Patsy) getting sleepy after a while and being coaxed into lying down on the sofa in the loungeroom, allowing JonBenet to continue the wait for the photographer alone with Santa. I can imagine Patsy falling into a deep sleep after her long day and remaining there until she was woken by the scream at 2 am.

Just one question, how is it that Patsy (as an adult) was too tired to stay awake but 6 yr. old JB wasn't?

 

[Eagle1]

I believe the letters / phone calls were all contrived by Patsy or someone she was using - S Stine perhaps . It was smoke and mirrors, nothing to it . The murder was committed by the one person who should have been protecting her.....Patsy - you doth protest too much ![/QUOTE

Well, she knows SOMETHING, or she wouldn't even be making up a very strange stranger. StrangEST, I'll bet.

I'm tempted to say my family "may" know a spooky someone, who may have asked to stay at our house for a week one time when we were both working, who we never saw during the week and forgot all about, until he may have approached us to say goodbye on the last day, that I may have heard a lot of hints about since then.

One of a kind I'd think,, who's been to the Philippines a lot, and who I may have heard is a hater, pseudo-religious maybe, possibly a cult leader, having interfered with people getting jobs, but I wouldn't want to get involved in anything if/when he "may" get caught for something else, so I'd better just say I'm making this up to defend my hunch, as PR is making up her character to defend herself. I'm just a very quiet homebody. I know nothink.

Thanks for the reply, and let's just keep an open mind, "judge nothing before the time", as we weren't there and we haven't had PR's experiences. Truth can be stranger than fiction.

The message to JR just may have been, as in the Bruce Willis version of "The Jackal", just "You can't protect your women," I'm thinking. Parents would hurt forever about not having been able to protect their child, not suspecting she was ever in any danger. Just a hunch. That's all.

 

[sharpar]

Hi Eagle -


You may be right but to me this all sounds SOOOOOOO dramatic and yet another version of "it wasnt me but this mysterious dark stranger ....... the one LE never find any evidence of. " Darlie Routier, Jeff MacDonald, Diana Downs, Scott Petersen have all tried to float that boat, none of them succeeded. Ramsey's lucked out, if it had happened anywhere else PR would have had her cancer treated in prison hospital.

I am not saying your version couldnt have happened I am saying its pretty unlikely considering what we know. Stranger to stranger is still quite rare even with pedophiles and other such creatures roaming around looking like normal people. Particularily ones that leave no evidence of their presence.

I dont think I will live long enough for the all facts to come to light. Its already been nine years and not a whole of lot progress has been made in quite some time. It appears that not only have the R's moved on so has
DA, Police, and all other official investigations. The Patricia letters nor the mystery man are new leads . They have been known about for quite some time and still this case is " not solved " . If there was anything to these
something would have happened by now. I stand by my belief that we have
just discussed another red herring in this tragic murder.

JMO