"We Didn't Mean for This to Happen"

[rashomon]

The two of them dressed alike for a pageant brings up the "wherever we go, whatever we do, we're gonna go through it together ..." line from that song that is used as the dedication in DOI.

A poster on another forum said that Patsy refers to her and Jon-Benet's favorite song "Wherever we Go" several different times to different interviewers as well as in her book. And that Patsy points out the song is from "Gypsy", a movie and Broadway play about a scheming, manipulative mother who lives vicariously through her daughter and pushes her into stripping.
Imagine a mother having this as a favorite song. Just shows how sick that poor excuse of a mother Patsy Ramsey is. Makes me want to reach for a barf bag.

 

[Paradox]

A poster on another forum said that Patsy refers to her and Jon-Benet's favorite song "Wherever we Go" several different times to different interviewers as well as in her book. And that Patsy points out the song is from "Gypsy", a movie and Broadway play about a scheming, manipulative mother who lives vicariously through her daughter and pushes her into stripping.
Imagine a mother having this as a favorite song. Just shows how sick that poor excuse of a mother Patsy Ramsey is. Makes me want to reach for a barf bag.

Thanks, it' been a while since I watched that movie. That's one I didn't even think of watching in connection to the Ramsey case.

Come to think of it, did Patsy ever associate the angel image to herself in any way? Or was that reserved for JB? It makes me wonder, Patsy did the angel thing with JB before she died and after. And Patsy came close to death. Now she thinks JB is an angel in heaven and she has said it won't be long before she joins her. Maybe Christmas '96 was a "you first, I'll be right after you" kind of thing.

 

[Paradox]

Its also an excellent example of Patsy's not honoring the boundaries between herself and her daughter. JB was not an extension of herself but a whole SEPARATE other person. Mothers who cant distinguish those boundaries often react in harsh ways when the daughter asserts her own personality.

Ditto on the boundary thing. That can serve as just a destablizing thing as sexual abuse alone.

 

[Toltec]

A poster on another forum said that Patsy refers to her and Jon-Benet's favorite song "Wherever we Go" several different times to different interviewers as well as in her book. And that Patsy points out the song is from "Gypsy", a movie and Broadway play about a scheming, manipulative mother who lives vicariously through her daughter and pushes her into stripping.
Imagine a mother having this as a favorite song. Just shows how sick that poor excuse of a mother Patsy Ramsey is. Makes me want to reach for a barf bag.

Sorry you got sick....get out the bag again.... this is what she told Pam Griffins daughter, Kristine..."All JonBenet ever wanted was to win a crown like yours."

On December 26 when Pam Paugh was sent to confiscate certain items...Patsy requested the My Twinn Doll....the doll JonBenet was not remotely interested in.

 

[rashomon]

In one of her movies Shirley Temple dressed as Marlene Dietrich and Mae West. Would you be happier if she had dressed as one of them or Clara Bow or Judy Garland?

But didn't Shirley Temple later as an adult complain about how she was used as a child, and saw her childhood career very critically? I remember reading about this somewhere.

You do know she only did something like 12 or 13 pageants in all? That's over a two and a half year span.

12 to 13 pageants in two and half years is an awful lot. For children don't just perform in these pageants for two hours, and that's it. They have to prepare intensively for each pageant a long time before, do rehearsals, see dressmakers, make-up artists, hairdressers, etc. in order to deliver a perfect perfomance later.

Nedra was generally considered a character. Patsy and Pam didn't start in pageants until they were teenagers so clearly Nedra knows one doesn't have to start young to avoid falling miserably behind

But these were Nedra's own words. Maybe that's the conclusion she drew because her own daughters hadn't made it to Miss America - so better start her granddaughter JonBenet young at the age of four so that she should not fall behind when it would get to the real big contests?

Although pageants aren't my cup of tea I don't think they are inherently evil.

There may be pageants which are harmless, but imo pageants where the children have to wear sexy clothes and are taught to perform seductively are not harmless at all.

I guess Lolita is in the eye of the beholder.

If it is only in the eye of the beholder, a question: would you want your daughter to be dressed up sexy like some of these pageant kids? If not, why not?

 

[Toltec]

Shirley Temple had a frightening experience with a big-time Hollywood Producer...he attempted to molest her.

One has only to see every Shirley Temple movie to see that there was this pattern of motherless child being raised by a man. She wore baby-doll dresses and in the horrendous Good-Ship Lollipop scenario, she passes rows of smiling men....CREEPY!

She was indeed used for the pleasure of men. And the scary part is that Patsy purchased these Shirley Temple movies for JonBenet.

 

[aussiesheila]

Yeah ... I think so too. But it still doesn't make Patsy a murderer.

I think those pictures are hideous too, but I agree with you capps - they don't make Patsy a murderer. I do think though, that a mother who is prepared to promote her daughter with photographs like these might be the type to turn a blind eye to the sexual abuse of her daughter.

 

[Paradox]

I do think though, that a mother who is prepared to promote her daughter with photographs like these might be the type to turn a blind eye to the sexual abuse of her daughter.

While she's doing it?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I think those pictures are hideous too, but I agree with you capps - they don't make Patsy a murderer. I do think though, that a mother who is prepared to promote her daughter with photographs like these might be the type to turn a blind eye to the sexual abuse of her daughter.

Yeah, Paradox, I think Patsy was the one doing it too. I don't think it had anything to do with sex, though...I think Patsy abusing JonBenet genitally to punish her for her inability to get her toileting under control. I also think JonBenet had toileting issues because her mother was a demanding control freak.

aussiesheila, why would Patsy knowingly allow anyone to molest her daughter? What possible benefit could there be for her to do something like that? The Ramseys were already solid in their position as an affluent and wealthy family with connections.

 

[rashomon]

Yeah, Paradox, I think Patsy was the one doing it too. I don't think it had anything to do with sex, though...I think Patsy abusing JonBenet genitally to punish her for her inability to get her toileting under control. I also think JonBenet had toileting issues because her mother was a demanding control freak.

That was also Steve Thomas' theory. But let's assume Patsy did this to punish JonBenet, the genital abuse with the paintbrush would not have led to JB's death.
And where would the headbash come in in this scenario? And the strangling?

Jmo, but I believe that the blow to JB's head came first, and that then a scene was staged which should point to a sexual pervert and direct the attention away from the parents.

 

[Paradox]

But let's assume Patsy did this to punish JonBenet

I don't think what Patsy did to JonBenet had much of anything to do with JonBenet.

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila, why would Patsy knowingly allow anyone to molest her daughter? What possible benefit could there be for her to do something like that? The Ramseys were already solid in their position as an affluent and wealthy family with connections.

Nuisanceposter, yes the Ramsey were affluent and wealthy but I don't think that was any help to Patsy. I think it all started with Patsy's own father. I think Patsy and possibly her sisters as well were abused by their own father. I don't think Patsy ever faced up to this. I think she knows it happened but is in denial about how wrong it was and has it buried very deeply in her psyche. To face up to the fact that one was abused by a parent and then openly accuse the parent comes at a terrible cost to the accuser. What usually happens is that the accused parent denies it, the other parent comes on side with their spouse and encourages the siblings to do likewise and the accuser is left branded a liar and ostracised by the rest of the family. In Patsy's case I would say she chose the non-confrontational path to maintain her place in the family. Then for her father to move in on her daughter is very easy. The next step was for some other acquaintance to get in on grandfather's act, but only after he had established himself and his wife as very, very close friends of the family, so close in fact that John considered him to be his best friend. I don't think the Ramseys had that many close friends and it seems that their social life revolved very much around the interaction of these two families and their four children. It would have been a very big applecart for Patsy to have upset if she had finally chosen to speak out. And I don't think it would have been just these friends that they would have lost had Patsy spoken out, it would have been others as well who wouldn't like to be associated with a 'tainted' family. Then there was John, you can bet that his best friend would have had something unsavory on Patsy that he would inform John about if Patsy 'outed' him. These people are master manipulators and have ways of keeping things under their control.

 

[aussiesheila]

Jmo, but I believe that the blow to JB's head came first, and that then a scene was staged which should point to a sexual pervert and direct the attention away from the parents.

rashomon, this belief of yours is just not consistent with the physical evidence described in the autopsy report which is that the strangling and crushing of the skull were essentially simeltaneous events.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon, this belief of yours is just not consistent with the physical evidence described in the autopsy report which is that the strangling and crushing of the skull were essentially simeltaneous events.

Dr. Meyer's conclusions are open to interpretation. He phrased it: 'asphyxia due to strangulaton associated with massive head trauma'. I don't think 'associated with' means that these were simultaneous events, but means that Dr. Meyer could not establish a definite time line as to which injury came first.

The massive hemmorhaging inside JB's brain would point to her having been alive with her heart pumping when receiving the blow to her head.
Whereas she seemed to have bled not very much from the vaginal injuries, which could point to her being already near-death then.
Which is why I believe she received the blow to her head first, and all the following actions were staged to direct the attention away from what had happened.

 

[aussiesheila]

Dr. Meyer's conclusions are open to interpretation. He phrased it: 'asphyxia due to strangulaton associated with massive head trauma'. I don't think 'associated with' means that these were simultaneous events, but means that Dr. Meyer could not establish a definite time line as to which injury came first.

The massive hemmorhaging inside JB's brain would point to her having been alive with her heart pumping when receiving the blow to her head.
Whereas she seemed to have bled not very much from the vaginal injuries, which could point to her being already near-death then.
Which is why I believe she received the blow to her head first, and all the following actions were staged to direct the attention away from what had happened.

But rashomon, there WASN"T massive hemmorhaging inside JB's brain, that is the very fact that points to the strangling and skull crushing as simeltaneous events.

The heart had only just stopped pumping seconds before, because of the strangling that occurred seconds before, so there was a SMALL amount of hemmorhaging only associated with the skull crush.

If the skull crushing had occurred a long time (minutes) before the strangling, then there would have been massive hemmorhaging inside her brain but that would have killed her immediately and then there would have been none of the eye or neck bleeding resulting from the strangling of her live body that was also described in the autopsy.

Meyer's conclusions are not open to quite so much interpretation as you require them to be for your theory to have any credibility.

 

[rashomon]

But rashomon, there WASN"T massive hemmorhaging inside JB's brain, that is the very fact that points to the strangling and skull crushing as simeltaneous events.

The heart had only just stopped pumping seconds before, because of the strangling that occurred seconds before, so there was a SMALL amount of hemmorhaging only associated with the skull crush.

If the skull crushing had occurred a long time (minutes) before the strangling, then there would have been massive hemmorhaging inside her brain but that would have killed her immediately and then there would have been none of the eye or neck bleeding resulting from the strangling of her live body that was also described in the autopsy.

Meyer's conclusions are not open to quite so much interpretation as you require them to be for your theory to have any credibility.

Could you quote your source about JB's brain not having massively hemmorhaged. I got the info that it had from ST's book, p. 43 hardcover ed. "The brain had massively hemorrhaged but the blood had been contained within the skull."

 

[sharpar]

Nuisanceposter, yes the Ramsey were affluent and wealthy but I don't think that was any help to Patsy. I think it all started with Patsy's own father. I think Patsy and possibly her sisters as well were abused by their own father. I don't think Patsy ever faced up to this. I think she knows it happened but is in denial about how wrong it was and has it buried very deeply in her psyche. To face up to the fact that one was abused by a parent and then openly accuse the parent comes at a terrible cost to the accuser. What usually happens is that the accused parent denies it, the other parent comes on side with their spouse and encourages the siblings to do likewise and the accuser is left branded a liar and ostracised by the rest of the family. In Patsy's case I would say she chose the non-confrontational path to maintain her place in the family. Then for her father to move in on her daughter is very easy. The next step was for some other acquaintance to get in on grandfather's act, but only after he had established himself and his wife as very, very close friends of the family, so close in fact that John considered him to be his best friend. I don't think the Ramseys had that many close friends and it seems that their social life revolved very much around the interaction of these two families and their four children. It would have been a very big applecart for Patsy to have upset if she had finally chosen to speak out. And I don't think it would have been just these friends that they would have lost had Patsy spoken out, it would have been others as well who wouldn't like to be associated with a 'tainted' family. Then there was John, you can bet that his best friend would have had something unsavory on Patsy that he would inform John about if Patsy 'outed' him. These people are master manipulators and have ways of keeping things under their control.

You are quite correct the damage done to the victim lasts an entire lifetime and affects every other facet of their lives from then on particularily if there has never been any acknowledgement of the abuse they suffered .

 

[aussiesheila]

Could you quote your source about JB's brain not having massively hemmorhaged. I got the info that it had from ST's book, p. 43 hardcover ed. "The brain had massively hemorrhaged but the blood had been contained within the skull."

My source is the autopsy report.

"Skull and Brain: Upon reflection of the scalp there is found to be an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area. This encompasses an area measuring approximately 7 x 4 inches. This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization."

Steve Thomas in his ignorance chose to call this amount of hemorrhaging "massive". But he was quite wrong. The amount of external hemmorrhaging was actually very small considering the extensive wound that lay underneath. Another indication that the bleeding was minimal is the fact that there was "no evidence of organization" ie not heavy enough for large areas of clotting to have formed.

"On removal of the skull cap there is found to be a thin film of subdural hemmorrhage measuring approximately 7 – 8 cc over the surface of the right cerebral hemisphere and extending to the base of the cerebral hemisphere..........There is a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere."

Again, with the subdural and subarachnoid bleeding there are only thin films of blood. If JonBenet had not had the blood supply to her brain restricted by the tightening of that ligature, the amount of subdural and subarachnoid bleeding would have been immense, as would the external bleeding.

 

[rashomon]

My source is the autopsy report.

"Skull and Brain: Upon reflection of the scalp there is found to be an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area. This encompasses an area measuring approximately 7 x 4 inches. This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization."

Steve Thomas in his ignorance chose to call this amount of hemorrhaging "massive". But he was quite wrong. The amount of external hemmorrhaging was actually very small considering the extensive wound that lay underneath. Another indication that the bleeding was minimal is the fact that there was "no evidence of organization" ie not heavy enough for large areas of clotting to have formed.

"On removal of the skull cap there is found to be a thin film of subdural hemmorrhage measuring approximately 7 – 8 cc over the surface of the right cerebral hemisphere and extending to the base of the cerebral hemisphere..........There is a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere."

Again, with the subdural and subarachnoid bleeding there are only thin films of blood. If JonBenet had not had the blood supply to her brain restricted by the tightening of that ligature, the amount of subdural and subarachnoid bleeding would have been immense, as would the external bleeding.

An "extensive area of scalp hemorrhage" would seem pretty much blood to me.

 

[Toltec]

Well this sexual abuse by Daddy Paugh got out of hand on the 23d of December. He got his grimy hands on his precious granddaughter and made her cry. By the 24th of December he was flying back to Atlanta...STANDBY!!!