Wecht vs. Lee

[Britt]

Because she may not have known where the body was...

That non-changed outfit, in and of itself, suggests Patsy was involved in the cover-up, if not for evidence reasons, then for the practical reason of having been up all night.

...there is no way she could plan on hugging JonBenet's corpse!

But she could certainly increase her chances, and her clothing kept her options open to further manipulate evidence.

IMO she did set things up the best she could. That's one reason she summoned the friends so quickly... so one of them would find JB before the cops got too deeply involved, maybe even before the cops got to the house.

 

[Britt]

UKGuy... Even dismissing Douglas... removing evidence alters the crime scene.

Staging means altering the crime scene, whenever or however that occurs, right?

Even if you don't consider removing evidence "staging," how does it suggest premeditation?

 

[UKGuy]

That non-changed outfit, in and of itself, suggests Patsy was involved in the cover-up, if not for evidence reasons, then for the practical reason of having been up all night.


But she could certainly increase her chances, and her clothing kept her options open to further manipulate evidence.

IMO she did set things up the best she could. That's one reason she summoned the friends so quickly... so one of them would find JB before the cops got too deeply involved, maybe even before the cops got to the house.

Britt,

Sure its possible that Patsy hoped it may turn out that way, but given it was likely they would be arrested etc, there was never any guarantee on this.

Anyway I guess she never knew about the fibers e.g. 4 fibers on the duct-tape.

I guess you could argue this is also why John picked her up etc?


.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy... Even dismissing Douglas... removing evidence alters the crime scene.

Staging means altering the crime scene, whenever or however that occurs, right?

Even if you don't consider removing evidence "staging," how does it suggest premeditation?

Britt,

Staging means altering the crime scene, whenever or however that occurs, right?

As a general description altering the crime-scene is fine, but some things that are altered are not done with staging in mind. These alterations are done more in an attempt to deliberately confuse investigators about their connection to the crime, or their identity, to distinguish this from staging these are usually referred as precautionary acts

Some examples are:

1.) Wearing gloves.
2.) Wearing a ski mask.
3.) Wearing a condom.
4.) Altering one's voice.
5.) Selecting a victim.
6.) Disposing of the body in a homicide.
7.) Wiping fingerprints.

Some scenarios:

Precautionary Act
After raping and murdering a female victim , the offender places her in her vehicle along with some of his clothing that is spotted with blood.
He then siphons off the fuel tank and douses her in and the vehicle with fuel, then he sets it on fire.
His intention is to destroy any evidence which may link him to the victim and the offence.

Staging
After raping and murdering a female victim , the offender places her in her vehicle and douses it with fuel.
Before setting it on fire, he writes a suicide note claiming how things will be better this way, and that she does not want anyone to cry over her.

In some of the examples above you can see some degree of planning or premeditation is required.

Similarly with the flashlight, whereas you consider this staging, and possibly consider it ad-hoc I assume its premeditated.

If it is to be interpretated as staging then its of a sophistication way beyond anything seen in the wine-cellar, so imo is not consistent with it e.g. as staging.

Another interpretation is that some LEA Officer left it by mistake, and now does not want to lay claim to it, following the debacle of the JonBenet case.

But who would wipe it clean for him and why?

A bit long winded but hope this helps.

 

[narlacat]

rashomon,

Possibly, but who would see the lights in the basement, who is there to see the lights?

Why does it matter, its the Ramsey house, not some other house?

I think from the forensic evidence that its safe to assume the use of the flashlight was premeditated and pre-planned!

This maybe rules out any ad-hoc staging?

Why is all this staging required for an accident, if it was an accident why not leave it as such, dial 911 and say my daughter fell off the ** hitting her head, whatever?

.

Because it wasn't an accident.

 

[narlacat]

"I doubt this very much, did JonBenet snack her pineapple in the dark, did Burke sip his tea by flashlight?

Its Xmas, vacation time, lights late at night are no big deal.

added: Was the Ransom Note authored in the dark, or by the moonlight?"

Could the kitchen lights be seen from outside?

The neighbour, Scott Gibbons, said the kitchen lights were on didn't he?
I'm pretty sure he did.
He was the one saying he saw moving light in the kitchen area IIRC.

 

[Britt]

Thanks, UKGuy, for explaining that. I see how some of the precautionary acts in your list would show premeditation of the crime, but in the Ramsey case, this only applies to premeditation of the coverup, not necessarily the murder.

 

[sissi]

Would someone tell me why Fleet isn't "good" for it?
Why aren't McReynolds, Wolf, Oliva, Helgoth, on a current suspect list?
Why do the Ramseys continue to be suspects?

On this forum, most believe a Ramsey did it, why them ,and not these others?Has Oliva's handwriting been eliminated, McReynold's, Wolf's,etc.? Why would someone suspect a parent over a sex offender who crossed paths with Jonbenet?

 

[narlacat]

Sissi
Most people think a RDI because that is where the evidence points..............>R

How can you explain away all of the evidence that points straight to.......>PR

 

[Jayelles]

Would someone tell me why Fleet isn't "good" for it?
Why aren't McReynolds, Wolf, Oliva, Helgoth, on a current suspect list?
Why do the Ramseys continue to be suspects?

On this forum, most believe a Ramsey did it, why them ,and not these others?Has Oliva's handwriting been eliminated, McReynold's, Wolf's,etc.? Why would someone suspect a parent over a sex offender who crossed paths with Jonbenet?

I don't know about Oliva. However, Wolf is only on that list because of a disgruntled ex-girlfriend, Helgoth because of criminal John Kenady and the rest have alibis. I think it might be reasonable to say that an alibi is the strongest defence in this case.

People seem to think that Santa lived close to the Ramseys and he didn't. He lives quite a few miles away. I forget exactly how many, but I'm sure it was more than 20. I understand he also lived in the mountains. Now I don't know about Boulder, but I do know that where I stay, when it snows, it snows much more on higher ground. There was snow the night that jonbenet was murdered. If Santa lived in the mountains, there may have been a fair bit more around his house.

Why in heavens name would an elderly man, who is recovering from a coronary bypass, leave his home on Christmas Day - in the snow - to drive 20+ miles, break in to a house by climbing through a basement window and murder a 6 year old child?

SDIs (Santa did it) like to bring up the fact that he was fit enough to travel ergo he was fit enough to do all of the above. GARBAGE! My mother travels. She is 83 years old and has a heart condition. She can walk on the flat (not quickly). She can manage to push a trolley with her case on it (she actually uses it for support) and she can be assisted onto the plane where she can enjoy a flight and repeat the process at the other end. She loves to go on trips and has just returned from a trip to canada where she actually travelled on her own with airline assistance. She comes to Majorca with us every autumn. However, depite the fact that she travels like this by air, she couldn't manage a flight of stairs very well and she can't come sailing with us because she can't manage the steep stairs down into the cabins.

Fleet White had several alibis.

I cannot understand why IDIs think the Ramseys - who were in the house at the time - should be given an automatic "pass", yet any Tom, Dick or Harry who gets suggested as a suspect (ON A WHIM in some cases) are expected to jump through hoops to clear their names or remain a suspect! Seemingly, if Tom Bennett doesn't make a public statement to clear someone - then that means the person must remain a suspect.

ETA - Sissi seriously, how you you feel if someone who had a grudge against your husband/brother/son decided to accuse him of involvement in the ramsey case and to suggest that just because Tom Bennett isn't making a statement to clear him officially, that must mean he IS a suspect?

I think these people should sue their accusers. I really do.

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks, UKGuy, for explaining that. I see how some of the precautionary acts in your list would show premeditation of the crime, but in the Ramsey case, this only applies to premeditation of the coverup, not necessarily the murder.

Britt,

No problem, the aspect of the flashlight that swings it for me is the wiping of the batteries.

Wiping the outside casing could be ascribed to anyone really, but I think you need a good reason to want to open a flashlight up and wipe the prints off the batteries.

So I reckon the user had the idea of using the flashlight beforehand, possibly checked it out, either handled the batteries or even inserted new ones.

Although we generally think of John or Patsy acting independently its possible they worked together jointly, one holding the flashlight, the other constructing the garrote?

.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I think the flashlight was the implemet used to fracture JonBenet's skull, so they wiped it down inside and out to clear any ties to them off of it because they didn't want it traced to them since it was the primary murder weapon. No premeditation required, just a severe desire to avoid prison.

I have to wonder why, if it wasn't their flashlight and an intruder left it as they claim, didn't they point it out right away to police as soon as they arrived, saying, "The intruder must have left this behind."

 

[BBB167893]

"On this forum, most believe a Ramsey did it, why them ,and not these others? Why would someone suspect a parent over a sex offender who crossed paths with Jonbenet?"

There's that little evidence problem, sissi.

"Has Oliva's handwriting been eliminated, McReynold's, Wolf's,etc.?"

I don't know, but I think it was a question of a lot of things, not just one thing.

"Would someone tell me why Fleet isn't "good" for it?
Why aren't McReynolds, Wolf, Oliva, Helgoth, on a current suspect list?"

Sissi, this probably won't take, but I used to be an IDI. I know what it's like. And I don't want to fight you, I actually want to help you. The IDIs and RSTs point to this old, degraded DNA as if it were some sort of proof of an intruder. It isn't. If it were, it wouldn't be in such crummy shape. I can think of at least one other case where there was a child murdered and a person was convicted, even though there was DNA on the victim's hands that wasn't his. If you want that story, I'll be glad to tell you. DNA cannot exclude suspects except in rape cases, and even then when it's only one rapist. If the cops didn't know that, they were bigger idiots than I thought. The PIs pimping it as intruder evidence...I expect nothing less from them.

BUT, here's where I want to help you out. This degraded DNA doesn't prove the Ramseys innocent, despite what that slimebag Wood says. BUT, it doesn't prove there was no intruder, either! It's a red herring. Let's think this through: if the DNA is in such bad shape that no one can be matched to it, it just means that the investigators will have to rely on different methods and evidence. What I'm trying to say is, maybe, just maybe, if the investigators weren't focused on this DNA, they might FIND the intruder! I've always thought Fleet or Bill were the best intruder suspects anyway!

But I'm just spitballing. You can take that advice or not. I'm pretty agreeable when I want to be. But for now, I have to agree with narlacat.

"I think these people should sue their accusers. I really do."

Well, Jay, I've always felt that the Rs had no right to go forth with their lawsuits. Moreover, I think a few of them weren't quite legal. I'm looking into that now.

Personally, I've never believed in libel or slander lawsuits. My feeling is that when two private people have an issue to settle, they should settle it the old-fashioned way: in a fight. (I am quite serious!) But, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, isn't it?

 

[rashomon]

I have to wonder why, if it wasn't their flashlight and an intruder left it as they claim, didn't they point it out right away to police as soon as they arrived, saying, "The intruder must have left this behind."

Good point, Nuisanceposter.

 

[Solace]

I think the flashlight was the implemet used to fracture JonBenet's skull, so they wiped it down inside and out to clear any ties to them off of it because they didn't want it traced to them since it was the primary murder weapon. No premeditation required, just a severe desire to avoid prison.

I have to wonder why, if it wasn't their flashlight and an intruder left it as they claim, didn't they point it out right away to police as soon as they arrived, saying, "The intruder must have left this behind."

Nuisanceposter: I use to think Patsy was being extremely rough with JB and JB fell against the bathtup, BUT, in looking at the head wound, I think it is way too extensive to be a fall against something. Although, maybe it could happen that way. I am inclined to agree with you. But why did she hit her with that. If there was that much violence going on, Berke would have heard it and from his question the next morning, it was "what did you find". Patsy had to be enraged to pick up a flashlight and bash her head in - I know she had to be enraged to bash her head in while in the bathroom, but the flashlight was kept downstairs. She would have to go down there and come back up unless JB was hit in the downstairs area. Everything is guesswork. Can't stand it.

 

[BBB167893]

Nuisanceposter: I use to think Patsy was being extremely rough with JB and JB fell against the bathtup, BUT, in looking at the head wound, I think it is way too extensive to be a fall against something. Although, maybe it could happen that way. I am inclined to agree with you. But why did she hit her with that. If there was that much violence going on, Berke would have heard it and from his question the next morning, it was "what did you find". Patsy had to be enraged to pick up a flashlight and bash her head in - I know she had to be enraged to bash her head in while in the bathroom, but the flashlight was kept downstairs. She would have to go down there and come back up unless JB was hit in the downstairs area. Everything is guesswork. Can't stand it.

Rashomon got me to thinking: does anyone know what the sink in JB's room looked like? The one at my place is a big, box number with the cabinet underneath. Was JB's just the basin? By that, I mean was it like the sinks in some public bathrooms? Because if it was, she might have been swung by the shirt headfirst into it: bent down, pulled+momentum, sink rounded edge...

Or, Solace, what if she WAS hit downstairs? At the kitchen table?

 

[Bev]

be about 4 to 5 ft in length and counting the counter as part of it, because it was built in to the counter top - the counter top looked like formica, and it had a cabinet under it.

This is just idle speculation, but I always wondered about those bed posts. If she was being yanked out of bed and reared back with her head arched and extended to her back, I wonder if she could have hit her head on the bed post? Spitz is absolutely certain that the skull fracture was caused by that maglite and it does look like it fits exactly.

I have a hard time taking anything Wecht and Lee say as positive, because they're such publicity hounds - I think Wecht hit the ground running, trying to get a book out first, and while he's a coroner, he's not a criminal investigator, and Lee seems to support the team that hired him.

 

[BBB167893]

be about 4 to 5 ft in length and counting the counter as part of it, because it was built in to the counter top - the counter top looked like formica, and it had a cabinet under it.

This is just idle speculation, but I always wondered about those bed posts. If she was being yanked out of bed and reared back with her head arched and extended to her back, I wonder if she could have hit her head on the bed post? Spitz is absolutely certain that the skull fracture was caused by that maglite and it does look like it fits exactly.

I have a hard time taking anything Wecht and Lee say as positive, because they're such publicity hounds - I think Wecht hit the ground running, trying to get a book out first, and while he's a coroner, he's not a criminal investigator, and Lee seems to support the team that hired him.

Dance with who brung ya!

Bed posts? I think the police had this idea at one point. The basket that held JB's hair ties was spilled. Maybe she was hurt vaginally in the bathroom and ran in there, and that's what happened.

 

[Bev]

I didn't know the cops had considered that. I do think that she might have hit her head on the counter or something in the bathroom, just because that's so common in toilet training rages. Experts always try to give some sort of parallel or "like" idea such as "the force of a 300lb man" to cause such a blow, but a child pulling away while an adult is pulling them forward, is enough force to cause this kind of accident. Plus, as you pointed out, and I have on other boards, she had frontal lobe bruising, which as you know is indicative of her brain bouncing back and forth inside her skull. One lobe was more bruised than the other, which might mean her head was moved to one side more than the other. I pretty much agree though, that she hit her head on something in the bathroom, because of the clothes mess, the statement from PR that she got the longjohns from the bathroom, and of course, as I mentioned the frequency of it happening.

I've always thought we'll never know, but look at the mystery of the Russian imperial family - the discovery of the mass grave, the dna proof and the Anna Anderson mystery being cleared up - she was a fraud. So while I'm not optimistic, I think there might be some resolution some day.

 

[BBB167893]

The impact point on the head had the greater bruising, but that figures. Yes, her brain was bouncing around, which suggests, at the very least, shaking.