Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

[Kittymama]

Thank you so much. I'm so sorry. I've been referring to Terri-Lynn McClintic as TM.

I don't think there is anything to say about the mother of the victim other than that the loss of her daughter seems to have destroyed her. Tara is the mother of the victim, right?

No worries, I just had a momentary "huh?" moment when I read your post.

Yes, Tara is the mother of the victim. Poor woman. She's sometimes referred to on here because of things that come up at trial, etc. So we do need a "name" for her.

 

[snoofer]

When my kids were young and I had another child in my care for the day. If I wanted to do something with the kids out of my home I first ran it by the parent. Even though I was designated babysitter by the parent I did not believe it meant cart blanche to do whatever with the kids. If I thought a beach day with the kids was good idea, I FIRST asked the parent; is it ok if we go to the beach, or is it ok if we go to the library. I did not take them anywhere without permission and without the parent knowing where that child would be and with whom. And I was a married woman with children and knew these kids all their lives. I do NOT think my way of babysitting was RARE. It was common sense. To suggest that a man would take a liberty of taking a child out of town without direct permission from that parent is just plain (insert adjective here) ______. And we KNOW according to CROWN that he was purchasing drugs and he drove that child to a rural field. But willing to listen to the defense explanation for this. JMO It best be good. JMO

 

[brighidin]

Thank you so much. I'm so sorry. I've been referring to Terri-Lynn McClintic as TM.

I don't think there is anything to say about the mother of the victim other than that the loss of her daughter seems to have destroyed her. Tara is the mother of the victim, right?

Yes, Tara is Tori's mother. Tara seems like a very strong woman. She was Tori's voice everyday when she was missing, despite being vilified by the media, the community, and the blogosphere. Although she has had drug problems, she has stated that she has cleaned herself up and is sober now. She also did a good job testifying. No, I don't think this has destroyed her. Not at all.

imo

 

[Macright]

When my kids were young and I had another child in my care for the day. If I wanted to do something with the kids out of my home I first ran it by the parent. Even though I was designated babysitter by the parent I did not believe it meant cart blanche to do whatever with the kids. If I thought a beach day with the kids was good idea, I FIRST asked the parent; is it ok if we go to the beach, or is it ok if we go to the library. I did not take them anywhere without permission and without the parent knowing where that child would be and with whom. And I was a married woman with children and knew these kids all their lives. I do NOT think my way of babysitting was RARE. It was common sense. To suggest that a man would take a liberty of taking a child out of town without direct permission from that parent is just plain (insert adjective here) ______. And we KNOW according to CROWN that he was purchasing drugs and he drove that child to a rural field. But willing to listen to the defense explanation for this. JMO It best be good. JMO

of course you would Snoofer and that is what most people would do but you have to remember who we are dealing with here..MR more than likely had no experience with children so would not be expected to know the rules etc. he was not the one doing the babysitting..it was TLM who MAY have said that was what she was doing.. and I don't believe MR is a very bright or logical person. besides how would he be able to ask the parents for permission if he didn't know them or know where to call them...he only would have TLM's word to go on and it looks as if he believed her...I don't think he was up on the rules of babysitting and permissions that are required... JMO

 

[otto]

Otto that's just why I have to scratch my head and think why...if he were guilty and this was planned why did he stop at an ATM and withdraw cash..if this were planned why did he have to purchase the hammer and the garbage bags, if this were planned why didn't he have these articles with him before he started out...if this were planned why did he need to stop at a Tim Hortons and drink a coffee/tea...one would think that TLM & MR would be so thrilled with their plan that they would head out right away and get things underway... that is a real puzzle for me... oh oh..I forgot one other small thing..why would he stop at a supplier in Guelph and purchase his drugs and visit with her for 10 minutes all the while having a small kidnapped child in the back seat..he sure took some chances don't you think...don't think you could find another kidnapping where the kidnapper did all those things before doing what he had in mind at the start..makes no sense to me at all..JMO

He needed to stop at the bank machine because he had just asked his escort girlfriend to deposit $100 in his account. It was planned and the plan was to buy a hammer and garbage bags on the way to the secluded spot. They stopped for coffee because they knew that they wanted to take their time and it was going to be a bit of a drive to the secluded spot. The drugs were purchased prior to the abduction ... all the better to enjoy their crazed plan. The child in the car was in the back seat under a coat and presumably TLM made sure that child didn't move.

Can you think of a murderer that wasn't arrogant and who didn't leave evidence behind? The pair were in it together from the start. They had a crazed fantasy plan of getting all drugged up and sexually assaulting a child, but they knew they couldn't get away with it if the child was left alive - so they stopped for the hammer along the way - as part of the plan to drive to the secluded spot where Tori was found. He even made sure there was enough money in his bank account (courtesy of another woman earlier in the day) to buy the murder weapon.

 

[Macright]

He needed to stop at the bank machine because he had just asked his escort girlfriend to deposit $100 in his account. It was planned and the plan was to buy a hammer and garbage bags on the way to the secluded spot. They stopped for coffee because they knew that they wanted to take their time and it was going to be a bit of a drive to the secluded spot. The drugs were purchased prior to the abduction ... all the better to enjoy their crazed plan. The child in the car was in the back seat under a coat and presumably TLM made sure that child didn't move.

Can you think of a murderer that wasn't arrogant and who didn't leave evidence behind? The pair were in it together from the start. They had a crazed fantasy plan of getting all drugged up and sexually assaulting a child, but they knew they couldn't get away with it if the child was left alive - so they stopped for the hammer along the way - as part of the plan to drive to the secluded spot where Tori was found. He even made sure there was enough money in his bank account (courtesy of another woman earlier in the day) to buy the murder weapon.

Otto the drugs were purchased after the abduction with TS in the car...

 

[otto]

Yes, Tara is Tori's mother. Tara seems like a very strong woman. She was Tori's voice everyday when she was missing, despite being vilified by the media, the community, and the blogosphere. Although she has had drug problems, she has stated that she has cleaned herself up and is sober now. She also did a good job testifying. No, I don't think this has destroyed her. Not at all.

imo

I read an article about her having a very sad expression.

Congratulations to her for battling the beast!

 

[Tahorn]

However, TS's parents WERE looking for her when she did not return home. I doubt very much TM would have considered TLM babysitting material for her daughter knowing what she knew about TLM and mother. Same goes for jury. Knowing what hey know about TLM; no matter what TLM put on her resume, I doubt the jury would believe most people would consider her babysitting material. Emphasis on MOST. JMO

Agreed, but the world TLM lived in is what we are talking about. Would people in TLM lifestyle use her for babysitting?

 

[Ardy]

MR certainly doesn't fit the profile of an oxycontin addict.

The first noticeable thing about addicts is their appearance.

As an addict, their life is consumed with the search for drugs or the money to buy drugs.

Their appearance no longer is a priority for them.

Their personal hygiene becomes noticeably lacking.

Their teeth rot out and they scratch all the time.

Even Christie Blatchford commented on MR's conventional good looks and appearance.

I think MR is either an addict of some other substance.........or he isn't an addict at all and his drug use has been blown out of proportions.

If he kidnapped and sexually assaulted VS........it wasn't drugs that made him do it.

TLM.............is a whole different story............JMO......

 

[otto]

of course you would Snoofer and that is what most people would do but you have to remember who we are dealing with here..MR more than likely had no experience with children so would not be expected to know the rules etc. he was not the one doing the babysitting..it was TLM who MAY have said that was what she was doing.. and I don't believe MR is a very bright or logical person. besides how would he be able to ask the parents for permission if he didn't know them or know where to call them...he only would have TLM's word to go on and it looks as if he believed her...I don't think he was up on the rules of babysitting and permissions that are required... JMO

A 28 year old man that doesn't understand normal formalities regarding caring for young children? Unless he is intellectually defective (60 IQ range), I don't believe that. He attended a wedding not too long before the murder and there were pictures of him holding two young girls (4-6 years of age). He knew people that had young children and knew perfectly well what was normal and acceptable and what wasn't. Didn't he say something to TLM about Tori not being young enough?

 

[otto]

Otto the drugs were purchased after the abduction with TS in the car...

Thanks ... I meant to say that. TLM must have used some sort of threat or promise to keep Tori quiet in the car for 10 minutes. The drugs were after the abduction and before the murder ... part of the plan.

 

[flipflop]

just want to say that you all today have made some great points and used some good examples. in regards to yesterdays witness it left me with the understanding that MR and the witness were two consenting adults and I didn't get the feeling that one was more manipulative than the other..it also didn't conclude to me that MR was a pimp...As the witness testified, they both came up with the idea that she would enter the "escort" business in order to make some fast bucks and they would share the proceeds...whether he helped arrange clients..well that I don't know about to date and I am sure those clients will not be coming forth with this info.. the fact that she was using his bank account to deposit money to him was done for a purpose..either she was trying to hide the extra income she was earning from whomever or when he did meet up with her on those two or three days a week they would spend the money together.. she spoke about a "car payment" but surely she knew what he was driving so I wonder if he maybe had leased a car for her and he would make the payments for her (maybe she had no credit)..This woman did not give off vibes that someone could pull the wool over her eyes and with five children I am sure she was not short of a man or two...along with their "escort arrangement" maybe they had another sideline in drug dealing and of course he would need cash up front in order to purchase from suppliers...I think that also was his connection to CM..she would supply the drugs and he would do the selling of them..that is why I still think that "drugs" or "a drug debt" played a big role in this murder...and drugs was an issue with most of the parties in this crime..both sides.... JMO

I was not aware that CS testified that they would share the profits, do you have a link for this.

All the links that I have read do not include the word share.....

The 26-year-old said during their relationship she and Rafferty discussed how to improve their finances and they decided she would get into the escort business and would give him all of those earnings.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/04/20/rafferty-stafford-phone-calls.html

 

[otto]

Agreed, but the world TLM lived in is what we are talking about. Would people in TLM lifestyle use her for babysitting?

It doesn't really matter what sort of standards 18 year old TLM had for babysitting. 28 year old MR knew perfectly well what was normal and what wasn't when it came to 9 year old abducted children under a coat in the back seat area of his vehicle. There's no excuse for him supposedly looking to TLM to make decisions about how and where a child was transported and cared for in his vehicle.

 

[brighidin]

MR certainly doesn't fit the profile of an oxycontin addict.

The first noticeable thing about addicts is their appearance.

As an addict, their life is consumed with the search for drugs or the money to buy drugs.

Their appearance no longer is a priority for them.

Their personal hygiene becomes noticeably lacking.

Their teeth rot out and they scratch all the time.

Even Christie Blatchford commented on MR's conventional good looks and appearance.

I think MR is either an addict of some other substance.........or he isn't an addict at all and his drug use has been blown out of proportions.

If he kidnapped and sexually assaulted VS........it wasn't drugs that made him do it.

TLM.............is a whole different story............JMO......

BBM#1: Do you have a link to anything about how oxy users look? I have never read anything about oxy taking such a physical toll on people Meth, yes, most definitely, but I haven't read anything like that about oxy and I would be genuinely interested in reading that.

BBM#2: Blown out of proportion by whom? He seemed to take percocets a lot too.

BBM#3: I am a 30-something single woman and I don't find him attractive in the least. (I'm referring to his pre-jail pictures). It is all subjective, I guess.

BBM#4: While I agree with you that TLM is something else, she doesn't look like what the media wants us to think a junkie looks like. In two pictures I have seen (mugshot and wearing MR's shirt) I noticed that she has very clear skin. Maybe its her youth, but I certainly didn't expect that.

 

[girlfriday]

IMO - this 'date' video, on the LFP website, shows how completely enamored TLM was with MR. Apparently, this was just days before the abduction.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/14/19503341.html

 

[SFB73]

of course you would Snoofer and that is what most people would do but you have to remember who we are dealing with here..MR more than likely had no experience with children so would not be expected to know the rules etc. he was not the one doing the babysitting..it was TLM who MAY have said that was what she was doing.. and I don't believe MR is a very bright or logical person. besides how would he be able to ask the parents for permission if he didn't know them or know where to call them...he only would have TLM's word to go on and it looks as if he believed her...I don't think he was up on the rules of babysitting and permissions that are required... JMO

You don't have to have kids, or be involved with kids to know right from wrong... I didn't have kids till I was 27 and I certainly would have known putting another persons child in my car was probably not a good idea unless I had permission from the parent, not the word from an 18 year old with a checkered past...

Not to mention we were all kids at one point and probably all at one time or another were left in the care of others and I as a child knew that even if a friend was over and my mom wanted to take us to McDonald's for lunch, that friend would call home and ask permission first and let his parents know and vice versa.

MR seemed to have no problem at all portraying himself as a worldly, compassionate all around great guy on POF, surely someone like that would know the ins and outs of child care, and have a good sense of right and wrong... Not to mention working as a "dance instructor" (bulk of people involved in dance lessons are minors) he would surely have had some of the "speak out" training that is now mandatory amongst coaches/ instructors here in Canada where working with children is involved... You know the common sense stuff that is expected from an adult when around children and what children should expect from an adult entrusted to their care....

 

[otto]

MR certainly doesn't fit the profile of an oxycontin addict.

The first noticeable thing about addicts is their appearance.

As an addict, their life is consumed with the search for drugs or the money to buy drugs.

Their appearance no longer is a priority for them.

Their personal hygiene becomes noticeably lacking.

Their teeth rot out and they scratch all the time.

Even Christie Blatchford commented on MR's conventional good looks and appearance.

I think MR is either an addict of some other substance.........or he isn't an addict at all and his drug use has been blown out of proportions.

If he kidnapped and sexually assaulted VS........it wasn't drugs that made him do it.

TLM.............is a whole different story............JMO......

MR was so consumed with finding drugs that he solicited women in online pick-up joints to pimp themselves out and give him the money. He used that money for drugs and a lazy lifestyle.

Why would MR stop at his drug dealer's house and spend $400 on drugs if it wasn't because he wanted to get high while sexually assaulting and murdering a young child. He had the child, all he needed were the drugs ... and maybe for a few days to come. I don't think that drugs made MR decide to sexualy assault a child ... more likely he is a sexual deviant that wanted to be high while committing the crime - intensify the experience.

MR and TLM made a horrible decision and the moment the pulled into the parking lot near the school to abduct a child, he was part of it.

 

[otto]

I was not aware that CS testified that they would share the profits, do you have a link for this.

All the links that I have read do not include the word share.....

The 26-year-old said during their relationship she and Rafferty discussed how to improve their finances and they decided she would get into the escort business and would give him all of those earnings.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/04/20/rafferty-stafford-phone-calls.html

She was "investing" in her relationship with him.

 

[Kamille]

IMO - this 'date' video, on the LFP website, shows how completely enamored TLM was with MR. Apparently, this was just days before the abduction.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/14/19503341.html

That is one of the most compelling pieces of evidence to show the dynamics between those two IMO.

 

[Kittymama]

MR certainly doesn't fit the profile of an oxycontin addict.

The first noticeable thing about addicts is their appearance.

As an addict, their life is consumed with the search for drugs or the money to buy drugs.

Their appearance no longer is a priority for them.

Their personal hygiene becomes noticeably lacking.

Their teeth rot out and they scratch all the time.

Even Christie Blatchford commented on MR's conventional good looks and appearance.

I think MR is either an addict of some other substance.........or he isn't an addict at all and his drug use has been blown out of proportions.

If he kidnapped and sexually assaulted VS........it wasn't drugs that made him do it.

TLM.............is a whole different story............JMO......

I would also be interested in seeing a link to prove your assertions about the physical effects of Oxycontin addiction. By your logic, TLM's not an addict either, as her teeth haven't rotted out and no one has mentioned her scratching all the time. Also, she's physically attractive. So there goes that theory.

Also, how do you explain the numerous women who testified about his Oxycontin addiction?