Weekend Discussion Thread 3/24-26/2012

[antiquegirl]

As far as MR's blood mixed with Tori's on the gym bag, maybe he cut his hands on the rocks.

MOO

Until we hear from the forensic experts, I wonder if they can tell exactly when his blood got onto that gym bag. Could they tell if it was before, during, or after the murder? Tori's blood could easily have gotten there via transfer from TLM's clothes, hands, or the hammer itself. Just trying to think like the defence attorney here.

MOO

 

[Ardy]

As I recall, the local LE didn't issue an Amber Alert, citing their belief that VS would be found or returned.

TLM stated that MTR was listening intently to the radio for such an alert.

If as TLM stated MTR was so concerned about an alert, does it make sense that he was driving all over the place, visiting Tim Horton stores, gas stations, Home Depot, and the person in Guelph?

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Does anyone have a link as to what the judges instructions to the jury were? I have been searching but can't come up with anything.

I was wondering the same thing, but I have to go in a bit. I'd think they would be the same for all trials with the same charges as MTR's.

 

[dilbert]

But in order for them to get out to the crime scene TLM would have had to have been already threatening him to comply which happened before she killed Tori.

Not necessarily, according to the suggestion Derstine put forth, they pulled in to that field to take Tori to a safe house, TLM told MR to walk away so she could talk to Tori. MR would not have known she was going to kill Tori, there was no talk in that suggestion that TLM was ever going to kill Tori and MR did not see what she bought at Home Depot because TLM put it in the trunk.
(we've seen that in the video)

So, he walks back and see's what TLM has done, still in a rage she screams at him to help her because "he's in it as deep as her". Did she threaten him with the hammer if he didn't help? If he told the police? Did she threaten his mother, his family at that time? We don't know yet, but it's certainly plausible.

Hypothetically speaking, if his semen is mixed with Tori's blood, then that is far more damning and difficult to prove his innocence. I will certainly agree to that.

MOO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

As I recall, the local LE didn't issue an Amber Alert, citing their belief that VS would be found or returned.

TLM stated that MTR was listening intently to the radio for such an alert.

If as TLM stated MTR was so concerned about an alert, does it make sense that he was driving all over the place, visiting Tim Horton stores, gas stations, Home Depot, and the person in Guelph?

I've thought about that and wondered if that wasn't the reason he stopped at those places to make it look like he had nothing to hide.

TLM did say tori was pushed down out of sight though.

IIRC, in the opening statements it sounded like MTR was the one that went in to get the drugs from Barbara A. If she looked outside, I wonder if she saw anyone besides TLM in the car. If she did not, it could confirm that Tori was pushed down in the backseat. Why would Tori be pushed out of sight if there was nothing to hide?

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Not necessarily, according to the suggestion Derstine put forth, they pulled in to that field to take Tori to a safe house, TLM told MR to walk away so she could talk to Tori. MR would not have known she was going to kill Tori, there was no talk in that suggestion that TLM was ever going to kill Tori and MR did not see what she bought at Home Depot because TLM put it in the trunk.
(we've seen that in the video)

So, he walks back and see's what TLM has done, still in a rage she screams at him to help her because "he's in it as deep as her". Did she threaten him with the hammer if he didn't help? If he told the police? Did she threaten his mother, his family at that time? We don't know yet, but it's certainly plausible.

Hypothetically speaking, if his semen is mixed with Tori's blood, then that is far more damning and difficult to prove his innocence. I will certainly agree to that.

MOO

But why would he agree to go to a safe house instead of returning her to the school, LE or her parents if he wasn't threatened to do so?

 

[antiquegirl]

Does anyone have a link as to what the judges instructions to the jury were? I have been searching but can't come up with anything.

All I have are the Tweets about it.

RaffertyLFP:

Heeney explains working of the trial to the jury outlines their duties jury has 9 women 3 men

Heeney is now explaining the defense has no obligation to present evidence, but they are permitted to.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Heeney says jurors are allowed to take notes, but the note pads are not allowed to leave the courthouse.

Heeney 2 #Rafferty jury :

crown will go 1st. Will provide opening address. Not evidence. It's a guide to crown's case.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Heeney now explaining witness testimony and how the jury should take it into account. Very similar outlines are given before all jury trials

Heeney 2 jury: listen carefully to evidence.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Heeney explains that all discussions in the jury room are not allowed to be repeated, even after the trial is over.

London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP

Heeney explains the concept of "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" asks them to appoint a foreman.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Heeney says some parts of the trial will be "graphic and disturbing", and jurors will be allowed to ask for a break.

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Heeney says trial will run from Tuesday-Friday starting next week.

Judge wraps opening instructions in #Rafferty with note that jury requires open mind.

 

[Ardy]

Well let's put it this way. They would have the victim and the killer right there at the scene. With the killer's prints all over the weapon. They would have no physical evidence that MR had done anything because Victoria would be fully clothed right? Because if she was sexually assaulted first by TLM then that was one long walk MR took with a likely screaming child within earshot. But his DNA would not be anywhere on the victim right? They would have a tough time believing that he didn't know for what purpose he was driving these two people to a secluded area but he'd be in a lot better position than he is now.

If that is what the police would have found if he'd called.

MOO

Yes, LE "might" have sorted it all out, but the police cruiser that arrived at the scene certainly wouldn't be doing it.

It would take weeks or months to investigate everything, and in the meantime MTR would most certainly have been arrested and held in custody.

If TLM accused him..........I believe he would still have faced these charges.

All she had to do was make the same statements that she did to convince LE and the Crown that MTR ordered her to buy the hammer and committed the murder, both of which she has now recanted.

Given the horrific scene, the fact that he was there, TLM's accusations.........he was going to jail for sure, at least for awhile.

Once a person is arrested, there is little upside to talking to the police. They are not interested in anything you say about your innocence. They have already arrested you and want to find information that supports their arrest.

Anyone who understands the justice system, would refuse to make ANY statement to the police.....even at the scene....until they retained legal counsel.

This would all take time............and meanwhile a person would be arrested and would be held in custody without bail.

 

[dilbert]

If he really didn't know TLM had abducted Tori he would have known by the time they got to Guelph for sure, I'm pretty sure Tori would have been crying, terrified. He could have called 911 when he stopped for perks, he would have been inside the house and TLM and Tori would have been in the car.

According to these tweets, it has been suggested he did try to put a stop to it.

Melanie Nagy@NagyCBCReply
Defence suggests that when #rafferty refused her gift,she tricked him into going to a rural area.

Melanie Nagy@NagyCBCReply
Defence then suggests that #rafferty tried to suggest taking Tori to a safe house and ending the situation.

Melanie Nagy@NagyCBCReply
Defence then suggest that #rafferty was no where near his car when Tori was killed.That he came back to find Tori dead.

Melanie Nagy@NagyCBCReply
Defence says #rafferty had nothing to do with the murder and that he was shocked to find the little girl dead.

 

[matou]

But why would he agree to go to a safe house instead of returning her to the school, LE or her parents if he wasn't threatened to do so?

Agree. Am I missing something though? How does a field in the middle of rural Ontario = safehouse? JMO

 

[Delaware]

Safe house? Can someone pls define that? Safe for whom? Where was the supposed safe house and why didn't they ever actually make it there (or did they?).

 

[matou]

Did TLM testify to something about a safehouse? JMO

 

[dilbert]

But why would he agree to go to a safe house instead of returning her to the school, LE or her parents if he wasn't threatened to do so?

I don't know, we'll have to wait and find out, the trial isn't even half over yet. I can only speak and form an opinion on things we've heard so far.

MOO

 

[Wondergirl]

I have a question (ETA: Okay, more than 1!)

If Derstine admits that MTR was at the scene, that he helped bury Tori, why didn't he own up to it after he was arrested?

Why continue the lies?

Why not direct LE to Tori's remains?

Where was his conscience?

Where was his remorse?

Where was his sense of decency?

Was MTR fearful of what other evidence LE would find with Tori's remains?

I wonder what the jury will think of all these things, when they consider the evidence, the first of which has been presented.

It is going to be a long trial.

JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

What if, hypothetically, they had his sperm mixed with her blood?

Then his goose would be cooked. Then I doubt he would have pleaded "not guilty". Then there probably wouldn't even be this long trial. Then I would like to see his sorry butt rot in prison. But, that's JMO.

 

[dilbert]

Safe house? Can someone pls define that? Safe for whom? Where was the supposed safe house and why didn't they ever actually make it there (or did they?).

I can only guess the safe house refers to a place where Tori would be held until the drug debt was paid. The defence is suggesting that is why TLM kidnapped Tori.

MOO

 

[OhSoCurious]

It would appear that the following two chapters are what people should be waiting for <modsnip>:

Chapter 4: the Mount Forest death scene

Chapter 8: Rafferty's connection to the Mount Forest area

IMO I have read so much speculation

 

[Ardy]

It wasn't stated exactly at what point along the way, that TLM "supposedly" informed MTR of the real reason VS was with them. If that was deliberately left out by Derstine or will be revealed later remains to be seen.

On the other side of the fence............

I am curious of the little information of MTR's criminal record.

I believe that normally, the criminal record of the accused is not revealed, but it was introduced into testimony as part of LE investigations into MTR.

There are different levels of criminal record checks, and the higher the level the more the information revealed.

A general CPIC check would reveal convictions, outstanding charges, warrants etc.

A more detailed criminal record check, such as those required for volunteering or working with young children, contains more information.

A criminal record check with local police forces, may reveal even more, although a local police service would not have information that happened in another jurisdiction. As MTR apparently moved around a bit, one would think that LE contacted all the various LE in the places where he lived.

Such an in-depth criminal record check would reveal any "contacts" with the police. This would include routine stops for vehicle checks, if a person was at one time considered a suspect in a crime, a witness of a crime, attending a bush party, and so on.

It would be interesting to learn if MTR had any record of anything with any LE agencies in places where he lived.

A criminal record doesn't determine guilt or innocence, but it can be a forebearer of things to come.............as TLM's criminal record did.

 

[Wondergirl]

I wonder if MTR met any of his girlfriend's at the Golf Course where he worked?

The interview was audiotaped May 15 that year at the Woodstock home of Rafferty's mother.

On the way to knock on the door, the two officers spotted his car, a Honda with a bad paint job and a spoiler, and thought it looked like one seen in the security video from near Tori's school.

Rafferty, who was then 28, seemed relaxed and even cocky: Asked what he'd heard about the little girl's disappearance, he said "just the stuff on the news," which he said he kept an ear out for because "you wanna help."

The interview consisted mostly of Rafferty talking about various girlfriends or girls he knew - he'd lived with one in town, another in Oakville, Ont., where he claimed he'd been working at the Glen Abbey Golf Club

The Crown has said we are going to hear all about that weekend, where MTR was, what he was up to, all the things he did after the interview with LE.

Asked what he was doing on the day Tori disappeared, he replied, "I don't know - most of the time I'm zipping in around town." He was between jobs, he said, doing some cash construction work. He'd given up "doing dance" at a Fred Astaire studio, he said.

Interestingly, McClintic testified that if she was ever questioned about their activities that day, one of the things Rafferty told her to say was that they'd driven to Hamilton and walked by a Fred Astaire studio there.

The interview and the car left the detectives wanting more. The next day, they came back to take a picture of Rafferty's Honda to compare with the car in the security video, but it wasn't in the driveway.

They even enlisted the various police surveillance teams that were all over Woodstock that long spring, but no one saw the car throughout that long weekend.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news...rbing+admissions+McClintic/6353699/story.html

 

[dar107]

It will be interesting to see if there are more interviews with Rafferty, and if he admits to anything at all.....or if he took full advantage of his right to remain silent once he was arrested.