Weekend Discussion Thread 3/24-26/2012

[swedie]

You should listen to MR's interview on May 19th 2009. He sounds very relaxed and lied about what he knew very easily, like a master of deception. The transcripts don't do justice to how well he handled the police at his house. He knew Tori was dead and where her body was and what happened to her. He is very much an expert at manipulation of truth. JMO

I finally got up the nerve to listen to more of that interview with the OPP and MR today. Did anyone else find something odd about his voice? <modsnip>

I found it odd because his voice does not seem to fit his appearance. I was taken aback when I heard MR's voice. For someone who was known to be a ladies man or had many girlfriends, I wonder now if these women were actually girlfriends or just friends. My daughter has a male friend who is gay and he sounds very much like MR. I love the guy like my own son btw.

I also recall reading a post from way back, posted by someone who knew him (cannot recall who) she said her and her husband talked about whether they thought MR might be gay. I cannot recall if this same girlfriend or friend said MR did not really have any male friends, IIRC.

What I am getting at is, it would be beneficial to know if MR was picked on and teased by other males as a child or adult, for the way he talked, making him hatred toward others, giving him a complex, which could explain why he did what he is being accused of, abducting, raping and murdering Tori. Would be interesting to find out if this could be true. I could be off track and just questioning whether anyone else noticed something different about MR's voice. JMHO.

<modsnip>

 

[dilbert]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=safe+house

safe house 40 up, 5 down

A house where one goes to avoid trouble with the law.
Brick, I've been meaning to talk to you about that. You should find yourself a safe house or a relative close by, lay low for awhile because you're probobly wanted for murder.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Just because it looks like the Crown doesn't have forensic evidence suggesting MTR raped Tori, that doesn't mean that is the case.

Think OJ Simpson. Sometimes there is overwhelming forensic evidence incriminating the accused and yet they still chose to fight it out in court. Defence attorneys call in their own experts who dispute the finding, discredit the methods used to analyze the evidence etc.

We still really don't know what is going to come out at trial.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Think about it, if TLM kidnapped Tori as collateral over a drug debt, wouldn't she have to stash her somewhere until the debt was paid (and Tori could be given back in exchange for payment)? Why on earth would MR suggest a safe house if he had no prior knowledge of the kidnapping, it was TLM that said she was taking her to the safe house, but first she offered her to MR, when he declined he could have said, can't we just take her to the safe house now?
There likely never was a "safe house" and TLM planned all along to kill Tori, but she couldn't tell MR that or he likely would never have allowed them to get in his car.

I'm not saying this is how I think it happened, but rather, that is how I interpreted the suggestion put for by the defence. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I don't know any other way to explain it more clearly. Moving on...

MOO

So are you suggesting/theorizing that MTR did have prior knowledge that it was a kidnapping?

 

[Jezbel]

I finally got up the nerve to listen to more of that interview with the OPP and MR today. Did anyone else find something odd about his voice? <modsnip>:

Aaah silly ipod.
Swedie you took the thoughts right out of my head, as I listened to the interview I thought exactly the same thing. I believe it was Wendell who saidher and her husband thought e might have been gay. Alsoone of his friends from when he lived in TO thought the same thing, I remember them and Wendell talking about it in a few posts.
<modsnip>.

JMO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I think it was "suggested" that TLM was the one talking about a safe house.

http://www.thespec.com/news/crime/a...ferty-as-innocent-dupe-in-tori-stafford-death

Snip:

"When it became clear he didn't want your gift you directed him to a rural location on a pretext... you said that she could be taken to a safe house," Derstine suggested. "Once you got to that lane you told him to walk away because you had to talk to the little girl because she was scared of him."

Well okay then, why did he go along with anything that didn't involve taking Tori home, to LE, or heck anyplace where she would be safe?

 

[dilbert]

So are you suggesting/theorizing that MTR did have prior knowledge that it was a kidnapping?

Umm, NO! please re-read what I wrote carefully. I'm sorry if it's confusing and you don't understand it, and it's your right to disagree. I just don't know how to make it more clear.

Think about it, if TLM kidnapped Tori as collateral over a drug debt, wouldn't she have to stash her somewhere until the debt was paid (and Tori could be given back in exchange for payment)? Why on earth would MR suggest a safe house if he had no prior knowledge of the kidnapping, it was TLM that said she was taking her to the safe house, but first she offered her to MR, when he declined he could have said, can't we just take her to the safe house now?
There likely never was a "safe house" and TLM planned all along to kill Tori, but she couldn't tell MR that or he likely would never have allowed them to get in his car.

I'm not saying this is how I think it happened, but rather, that is how I interpreted the suggestion put for by the defence. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I don't know any other way to explain it more clearly. Moving on...

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I think it was "suggested" that TLM was the one talking about a safe house.

http://www.thespec.com/news/crime/a...ferty-as-innocent-dupe-in-tori-stafford-death

Snip:

"When it became clear he didn't want your gift you directed him to a rural location on a pretext... you said that she could be taken to a safe house," Derstine suggested. "Once you got to that lane you told him to walk away because you had to talk to the little girl because she was scared of him."

This was the tweet that I was referring to that said that going to a safe house was MTR's suggestion:

Melanie Nagy@NagyCBCReply
Defence then suggests that #rafferty tried to suggest taking Tori to a safe house and ending the situation.

 

[dilbert]

This was the tweet that I was referring to that said that going to a safe house was MTR's suggestion:

Melanie Nagy@NagyCBCReply
Defence then suggests that #rafferty tried to suggest taking Tori to a safe house and ending the situation.

It is the suggestion of the defence that MR suggested that AFTER TLM had told him she was taking Tori to the safe house. So, the initial suggestion was made by TLM.

MOO

 

[OhSoCurious]

Melanie Nagy@NagyCBCReply
Defence then suggests that #rafferty tried to suggest taking Tori to a safe house and ending the situation.

__________________________________________________________________________

Would you no interpret that as Rafferty looking to lead Tori to safety and get the heck out of that situation Terri put them in?

 

[dilbert]

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19543041.html

"The abduction was your idea," he suggested to McClintic. "You went and lured this girl. You brought her in the car all friendly that Michael thought nothing of it. Later on you told him that the girl was in the car for a drug debt. Still later . . . you offered her to Michael, sexually. When it became clear that he didn't want your gift, you directed him to a rural location on a pretext . . . You said that she could be taken to a safe house. Once you got to that lane you told him to walk away because you wanted to talk to the little girl because she was scared of him. You . . . threw her down and killed her. Mr Rafferty came back after the death, was horrified, but helped you clean up."

This says it was the defence suggestion that TLM brought up the safe house, the tweets mentioned in the posts above say it was MR. I believe it was a mix of the two, with TLM mentioning it first. Who you believe is up to you.

MOO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Defence then suggests that once Tori was in the car McClintic offered the little girl to #rafferty as a sexual gift. #sl

Defence suggests that when #rafferty refused her gift,she tricked him into going to a rural area. #sl

Defence then suggests that #rafferty tried to suggest taking Tori to a safe house and ending the situation. #sl

Like I said, i was going by the tweets. If you read the tweets carefully they say that Rafferty suggested they go to a safe house after TLM suggests they go to a rural area.

The article says that it was TLM that suggested the safe house. I was going by the tweets.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Melanie Nagy@NagyCBCReply
Defence then suggests that #rafferty tried to suggest taking Tori to a safe house and ending the situation.

__________________________________________________________________________

Would you no interpret that as Rafferty looking to lead Tori to safety and get the heck out of that situation Terri put them in?

No, I would not if you are asking if I felt taking Tori to a safe house would be leading Tori to safety. If a safe house is a house where criminals are protected or where Tori would be looked at as "collateral" pending repayment of a drug debt, I do not consider that to be a safe place for a little girl.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Defence then suggests that once Tori was in the car McClintic offered the little girl to #rafferty as a sexual gift. #sl

Defence suggests that when #rafferty refused her gift,she tricked him into going to a rural area. #sl

Defence then suggests that #rafferty tried to suggest taking Tori to a safe house and ending the situation. #sl

Like I said, i was going by the tweets. If you read the tweets carefully they say that Rafferty suggested they go to a safe house after TLM suggests they go to a rural area.

The article says that it was TLM that suggested the safe house. I was going by the tweets.

I think it becomes confusing when all the reporters are only tweeting pieces, and sometimes errors can also be made in haste. You have to try to put them together from more than one source to get a more complete picture. Here are the tweets from AM980:

23 Mar AM980.ca @AM980_Court
Derstine suggests the abduction was her idea. Rafferty knew nothing of it.

23 Mar AM980.ca @AM980_Court
Derstine says Tori was offered to Rafferty sexually. Rafferty rejected the offer. McClintic directed Rafferty to the country.

23 Mar AM980.ca @AM980_Court
McClintic told him to go to a safe house. She then killed Tori, as she spoke to her alone because Tori was afraid, Derstine says.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Melanie Nagy@NagyCBCReply
Defence then suggests that #rafferty tried to suggest taking Tori to a safe house and ending the situation.

__________________________________________________________________________

Would you no interpret that as Rafferty looking to lead Tori to safety and get the heck out of that situation Terri put them in?

Yes, regardless of who suggested it first, I would interpret it as getting her to a safe place and stopping the kidnapping plan.

 

[dilbert]

Has MR stated he felt his family was threatened? Is it known that he did not trust the police? JMO

Originally Posted by dilbert
If he's anything like the "wimpy coward" that many here claim him to be, it doesn't surprise me that he tried to hide his involvement. TLM could have threatened him and his family if he said anything, it's been proven in court, through her previous writings, that she had the means to find the names and addresses of witness that were responsible for putting her in juvie. Who's to say she wouldn't do that again and actually follow through, after all, she had already bashed in the skull of an 8yr old, it wouldn't be much harder for her to make a few calls and have one of her "Crips" buddies make a home visit to MR's mom.

I agree it was stupid of him to not go to the police, if it is in fact true that he helped with the clean up, but no one can say what they'd do for sure unless you have been put in those shoes, I don't care who you are or what you say. If you felt your family was threatened and wasn't the type to trust the police, you'd keep your mouth shut too.

MOO

Please note the MOO at the bottom of my post. HTH :seeya:

 

[swedie]

My personal opinion on the whole safe house thing. It was never disgusted, never happened. Just Derstine's spun story of trying to get his client out of the disgusting, huge, mess MR's got himself into because he wanted to sexually assault a little girl. I do not believe the jury is going to buy any of Derstine's/MR's story. I give them more credit than that. They will see right through the defense's facade. Derstine has just got to go with it, what else can he do? He took on this case and if he knows the evidence will prove MR's guilty, what more can we expect from him? Derstine is just rolling with the punches IMO. You cannot deny the evidence. Try to yes, succeed I doubt it. JMO.

Tori was abducted by TLM for MR for SEXUAL PURPOSES ("You know I'm gonna f___ her right?") Yes I believe he said that. :moo: Once TLM and MR had her and MR was done sexually assaulting Tori, there was no turning back. They could not take the chance of returning her because his DNA was all over her, Tori may have been able to recognize her abductors, she was more than likely injured horrifically from the sexual attacks, therefore they proceeded with their next plan; murder. MR made it clear according to TLM "we can't keep her and we can't take her back". IMHO, BOTH GUILTY. They acted together, both partook in their evil deeds. End of story and a very devastating one at that. Hope they both rot in he!! the disgusting evilness that they are. :moo:

BTW, as I said before in case it was missed, PH and RW didn't have a criminal record either before their arrests. HTH.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I think it becomes confusing when all the reporters are only tweeting pieces, and sometimes errors can also be made in haste. You have to try to put them together from more than one source to get a more complete picture. Here are the tweets from AM980:

Thanks, I just had those particular tweets I referenced in my head because they had been referred to earlier in the thread.

 

[swedie]

Think about it, if TLM kidnapped Tori as collateral over a drug debt, wouldn't she have to stash her somewhere until the debt was paid (and Tori could be given back in exchange for payment)? Why on earth would MR suggest a safe house if he had no prior knowledge of the kidnapping, it was TLM that said she was taking her to the safe house, but first she offered her to MR, when he declined he could have said, can't we just take her to the safe house now?
There likely never was a "safe house" and TLM planned all along to kill Tori, but she couldn't tell MR that or he likely would never have allowed them to get in his car.

I'm not saying this is how I think it happened, but rather, that is how I interpreted the suggestion put for by the defence. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I don't know any other way to explain it more clearly. Moving on...

MOO

he had no prior knowledge of the kidnapping.
How does one explain a child cowering on the floor of his vehicle?:waitasec:

she offered her to MR, when he declined
He declined because he may be gay? Not into molesting children? Even though he was suspected of being a womanizer? Liked having sex in random placed without really knowing his sexual partner or their sexual history? Had many women on the go at the same time without them knowing?:waitasec:

he likely would never have allowed them to get in his car.
Because why? He didn't know TLM had a history of violence? A criminal record? She was a druggie? But he allowed TLM to push Tori onto the floor of his car and covered her with his coat, and that was ok with him? He drove TLM and Tori around for over two hours, with a more than likely crying child in the back and never sensed something was not right with that picture? Tori wasn't crying and asking "where are you taking me?" She didn't beg to go home and promised TLM and MR that she wouldn't tell on them, she would say she was at her cousin's house play?:waitasec:

I would say TLM did a fantastic job on the stand, and even though she is as psycho as she is, I think she may have won the jury over with her testimony. But that is JMOHO.

 

[otto]

Weekend threads and reflections

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