Weekend Discussion Thread 3/24-26/2012

[Ardy]

IMO His mother just saying hi and walking by when he was questioned followed by her lack of presence at his trial and toppled by her 28 year old, drug addict son moving in and out of her house may speak volumes, not judging though it could simply be a case of her horror against the crime he is being accused of but it's strange.

On the MTR interview transcript.....MTR's mother arrived towards the end of the interview, and was informed by one of the police officers that they were interviewing her son.

In police parlance...........that means this matter is private and you are not invited. Had she not excused herself..........they would have asked her to leave.

I haven't heard if MTR's family is in court or ever have been.

Maybe he has requested they don't attend..........we don't know the facts.

 

[antiquegirl]

Who is using that against him? His friends? :what: If you're assuming I am, that's incorrect. I am simply stating I surprised by the sound of MR's voice. By his appearance I expected just a regular sounding male voice. I don't think a gruff voice would suit his either, but I would not hold it against him, kwim? JMHO

(BBM)

Actually, the post went on to suggest a theory that his voice may have caused him to be bullied as a child, which then gave him the motivation to take it out on Tori. Sounds to me like "using it against him". Curious is suggesting that no matter what his voice sounds like, someone will read something into it.

IMO, his voice doesn't sound unusual or particularly effeminate. I also believe that IF he were seeking some kind of revenge for being bullied by other boys as a child, it would be towards a little boy, not a girl.

MOO

 

[Oldsoul2]

Think about it, if TLM kidnapped Tori as collateral over a drug debt, wouldn't she have to stash her somewhere until the debt was paid (and Tori could be given back in exchange for payment)?

MOO

I think your own question was just answered. IMO if you're in fact taking a child over a drug debt, you're not going to kill her. That's like kidnapping for ransom without calling the payer

 

[~n/t~]

I'm not being silly, I honestly don't know what the defence's theory is. I've heard different versions.

We know their theory is TLM was the mastermind.

What is their theory? That MR wasn't there? That MR was there but he turned around at the spot where Tori was murdered and didn't notice anything until it was too late? Where did he go? Take a whizz as some suggested here? Other theories suggested a safe house? Did he think they were taking Tori to a safe house?

Seriously. What is their theory or are they throwing everything on the wall like overcooked spaghetti and see which ones stick?

I have faith the jury will use common sense. He was there. He saw a murdered child and didn't do anything except help her cover it up ?? He lied to the cops in the interview.

Normal people don't do that. They see a crime, they call 911. The fact that he didn't have priors can go either way, imo. It can help the defence but it can also help the prosecution. With no priors, why was he so afraid to report a crime?

I've watched and followed many cases and one thing that "most" jurors do is use their common sense. As a matter of fact, I watched one last night. It was a 48 hour mystery re run of Mike Oakes trial. He claimed self defense but when it came down to verdict time, the jury came back with guilty. The evidence presented showed he disposed of the victim's body. One juror said after deliberating for 3 days, one thing that always came back...if it was self defence, why not call 911? Instead, he got rid of the body (still not found). It makes no sense.

Same thing will happen in this case, imo. The jury will realize that regardless of what he did and/or didn't do (all evidence not presented yet), it will come down to : Why did he not save Tori? Why did he not call 911? If he was not involved, why did he help cover up a murder?

It's called common sense!

 

[swedie]

IMO His mother just saying hi and walking by when he was questioned followed by her lack of presence at his trial and toppled by her 28 year old, drug addict son moving in and out of her house may speak volumes, not judging though it could simply be a case of her horror against the crime he is being accused of but it's strange.

I certain found that very strange. If police officers showed up and my door, I would introduce myself and ask them if there was anything I could help them with and what are they here for. The fact that she just nonchalantly walked out and then in, as if this was a common occurrence, left me flabbergasted. Maybe it was a common occurrence. Wouldn't one be really curious or suspicious also, knowing there is a missing little eight year old little girl right there in your hometown? And to add to the mix, MR stating he and his mother are in contact with CM and TLM, two of Woodstock's finest people? It would be very interesting to find out if MR's mother actually did go around to CM's place, how she became aware of CM and why would she bother with such low life. The truth would be worthy; speculation abound doesn't interest me as I have a few speculations of my own. :moo: Strange, just really strange IMO.

 

[Ardy]

I think your own question was just answered. IMO if you're in fact taking a child over a drug debt, you're not going to kill her. That's like kidnapping for ransom without calling the payer

Would it not depend on when TLM informed MTR. Up until then, MTR may not have known the reason VS was with them..........according to the defense theory.

Is it possible that when involved in drug transactions and debts, those involved seldom advise the police of their intentions, or believe the other parties are going to inform the police either?

 

[swedie]

The circumstances of MR's mother's presence there are unclear. LE concluded the interview very shortly after she arrived - I timed it at less than two minutes. She could have been hanging up her coat, putting away groceries, whatever, and then LE left. She could even have been standing right there - it wasn't noted where she was after she said "hi".

As for her not being at the trial, if she is going to testify at any time in the future, she would not be allowed in the courtroom. It's also possible that she is there and no members of the media have recognized her. I've never seen a picture of her in these past three years.

JMO

Please remove my name from this quote #241 you are quoting to, as it does not belong to me, thank you kindly.

 

[antiquegirl]

I certain found that very strange. If police officers showed up and my door, I would introduce myself and ask them if there was anything I could help them with and what are they here for. The fact that she just nonchalantly walked out and then in, as if this was a common occurrence, left me flabbergasted. Maybe it was a common occurrence. Wouldn't one be really curious or suspicious also, knowing there is a missing little eight year old little girl right there in your hometown? And to add to the mix, MR stating he and his mother are in contact with CM and TLM, two of Woodstock's finest people? It would be very interesting to find out if MR's mother actually did go around to CM's place, how she became aware of CM and why would she bother with such low life. The truth would be worthy; speculation abound doesn't interest me as I have a few speculations of my own. :moo: Strange, just really strange IMO.

(BBM)

I'm sorry, but I don't understand. In neither the transcript nor the audio do I hear MTR's mother walking out and in again. It's made quite clear that she wasn't home when LE arrived nor for almost all of the interview. She got home, said "hello", and where she was for the next -2 minutes was left unstated. LE then concluded and left. My guess would be that once LE left, she questioned her son about what it was all about.

"I know your mom just arrived home"

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86510694/TRANSCRIPT-Michael-Rafferty-interview-with-OPP-2009-05-15

JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

But can't those be searched? Somehow, JG's charges (acquitted) have become public knowledge. I have copies of the papers myself. Mariam M's father was charged and acquitted of a crime in California. When she went missing, the media found it within a few days and the details were out there. I would think that anyone who knew how to find these arrest records (acquitted or not) would have found them by now. I don't believe that this question referred strictly to convictions; the question said "record". Any arrests would be on public record, except possibly juvenile ones.

JMO

You are probably right AG ... as a good defence lawyer, i'm sure Derstine would not have asked that particular question if he didn't already know the answer would be of benefit to his client.

There are various levels of criminal record checks with degrees of information available ... presumably LE would be privy to the highest level and not just do a cursory Level 1 or 2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Record#Canada
(scroll down to "Canada")

FWIW, it seems that pardons would be excluded from all 4 levels.

 

[Sillybilly]

I think your own question was just answered. IMO if you're in fact taking a child over a drug debt, you're not going to kill her. That's like kidnapping for ransom without calling the payer

If in fact it was over a drug debt, seems it was punishment for the debt as opposed to collateral.

JMO

 

[Oldsoul2]

Please remove my name from this quote #241 you are quoting to, as it does not belong to me, thank you kindly.

Originally Posted by Oldsoul2 View Post

IMO His mother just saying hi and walking by when he was questioned followed by her lack of presence at his trial and toppled by her 28 year old, drug addict son moving in and out of her house may speak volumes, not judging though it could simply be a case of her horror against the crime he is being accused of but it's strange.

The circumstances of MR's mother's presence there are unclear. LE concluded the interview very shortly after she arrived - I timed it at less than two minutes. She could have been hanging up her coat, putting away groceries, whatever, and then LE left. She could even have been standing right there - it wasn't noted where she was after she said "hi".

As for her not being at the trial, if she is going to testify at any time in the future, she would not be allowed in the courtroom. It's also possible that she is there and no members of the media have recognized her. I've never seen a picture of her in these past three years.

My original post is first. The quote above is not mine Swedie??? I didn't post this it was posted by antiquegirl, something going on with the "quote" button maybe?

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I agree it was stupid of him to not go to the police, if it is in fact true that he helped with the clean up, but no one can say what they'd do for sure unless you have been put in those shoes, I don't care who you are or what you say. If you felt your family was threatened and wasn't the type to trust the police, you'd keep your mouth shut too.

MOO

Well even if he didn't help with the clean-up, we know he was there right? So along with the DNA and other stuffs, it looks bad. Also, when MTR made that statement, he didn't know any of those things about TLM. It isn't to his credit that he didn't call the cops and/or at least tell the truth (which shows he's a liar so he could be lying about everything too) at his interview. Just having been there and not having said anything and having lied to the police, is at least accessory after the fact, tampering with evidence,and perhaps even obstruction of justice

 

[antiquegirl]

It's not my original quote??? I didn't post this[/B]

Sorry, it was my mistake. I fixed it.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I certain found that very strange. If police officers showed up and my door, I would introduce myself and ask them if there was anything I could help them with and what are they here for. The fact that she just nonchalantly walked out and then in, as if this was a common occurrence, left me flabbergasted. Maybe it was a common occurrence. Wouldn't one be really curious or suspicious also, knowing there is a missing little eight year old little girl right there in your hometown? And to add to the mix, MR stating he and his mother are in contact with CM and TLM, two of Woodstock's finest people? It would be very interesting to find out if MR's mother actually did go around to CM's place, how she became aware of CM and why would she bother with such low life. The truth would be worthy; speculation abound doesn't interest me as I have a few speculations of my own. :moo: Strange, just really strange IMO.

I'm not understanding what the problem is that MR's mother didn't join in on the interview. It's not like MR is a 10 year old who shouldn't be interviewed by the police without his mother present. Even if the police hadn't informed her that they were interviewing her son, it would be pretty obvious as soon as she walked in the door.

 

[swedie]

(BBM)

Actually, the post went on to suggest a theory that his voice may have caused him to be bullied as a child, which then gave him the motivation to take it out on Tori. Sounds to me like "using it against him". Curious is suggesting that no matter what his voice sounds like, someone will read something into it.

IMO, his voice doesn't sound unusual or particularly effeminate. I also believe that IF he were seeking some kind of revenge for being bullied by other boys as a child, it would be towards a little boy, not a girl.

MOO

It's unfortunate you read it that way when I simply meant by my suggestion, it is a possible reason why anyone could or might have bully him. Just as we have discussed TLM chances of having FAS. I am not using it against her, just trying to figure out what makes these sick people tick. HTH. eace:

I believe it would depend on who teased him. I know I mentioned males in my one posts, but subsequently mentioned others meaning males or females. It is possibly little girls and adult women shunned him for his voice, no? That very well could explain why he chose Tori the little female. Maybe some answers will come to light during his trial, about his upbringing and background. We will just have to wait and see. JMOHO

 

[Ardy]

I'm not understanding what the problem is that MR's mother didn't join in on the interview. It's not like MR is a 10 year old who shouldn't be interviewed by the police without his mother present. Even if the police hadn't informed her that they were interviewing her son, it would be pretty obvious as soon as she walked in the door.

To add to your post, I would imagine there was a police car, a cruiser or unmarked car, in their driveway.........unless LE walked there.

MTR is an adult and is entitled to privacy about his business as well.........including his conversations with the police. As such is the case, the police would probably not have entered into a conversation with the mother for any reason.

 

[antiquegirl]

If in fact it was over a drug debt, seems it was punishment for the debt as opposed to collateral.

JMO

This is certainly a possibility. Another one is that if she/they were trying to contact someone to ask for a ransom during all that time, but for some reason couldn't get a hold of them, things got out of hand by then. Perhaps Tori reached her breaking point, became unmanageable, and TLM's rage took over. She doesn't strike me as the patient type and by then she knew that there was no going back.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Just because it looks like the Crown doesn't have forensic evidence suggesting MTR raped Tori, that doesn't mean that is the case.

Think OJ Simpson. Sometimes there is overwhelming forensic evidence incriminating the accused and yet they still chose to fight it out in court. Defence attorneys call in their own experts who dispute the finding, discredit the methods used to analyze the evidence etc.

We still really don't know what is going to come out at trial.

Likewise, just because TLM says he raped Tori, doesn't mean he did.

I prefer to look at both sides of the coin. Think Guy Paul Morin, Steven Truscott, Kyle Unger, William Mullins-Johnson, David Milgaard.

 

[flipflop]

If in fact it was over a drug debt, seems it was punishment for the debt as opposed to collateral.

JMO

Im interested in hearing about the cell phone usage at the rock pile. I wonder did they make a call...to whom, or was it used to take a pic, check bbm or send a text????

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Not necessarily, according to the suggestion Derstine put forth, they pulled in to that field to take Tori to a safe house, TLM told MR to walk away so she could talk to Tori. MR would not have known she was going to kill Tori, there was no talk in that suggestion that TLM was ever going to kill Tori and MR did not see what she bought at Home Depot because TLM put it in the trunk.
(we've seen that in the video)

So, he walks back and see's what TLM has done, still in a rage she screams at him to help her because "he's in it as deep as her". Did she threaten him with the hammer if he didn't help? If he told the police? Did she threaten his mother, his family at that time? We don't know yet, but it's certainly plausible.

Hypothetically speaking, if his semen is mixed with Tori's blood, then that is far more damning and difficult to prove his innocence. I will certainly agree to that.

MOO

I'm just wondering why after the crime, MR continued to see TLM, visited her in detention, went to court with her, brought over plants and furniture to her mother, I might be missing stuff, now those are things he admitted himself in his interview... why would he continue to see her?