weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[puppyraiser]

Here's my theory: MR and TLM did have a conversation about MR wanting a female child for sexual purposes, and therefore TLM (after being baited by MR about being all talk) went through with taking the first child she saw alone. MR got angry because the child was "too old" but decided to go along with original plan. Once TLM started talking to her and found out how bright she was and her name and that BOTH MR and TLM knew of the mother, the plan to kill Tori was formulated (hence the stop at Home Depot). I believe MR directed TLM to kill Tori because she was the one who had messed up by grabbing an older child and one that both were connected to in a round about way.

Had the child been much younger, maybe a different outcome would have occurred. I don't think the original plan involved killing the victim.
MOO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

<modsnip>

Taking TLM to the hotel, especially if he used the waking up next to her line really does seem to me like MTR wanted TLM to believe that his feelings were much deeper than just friends or bed buddies.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I didn't know that TLM also stated she had colon cancer... so that makes the two of them now...TLM & MR...I must have missed that piece of info...:what::moo:

*giggles* I didn't say she said she had colon cancer, she never said that But she does have scoliosis I think someone else said she said she had colong cancer

 

[myzzy]

At this point i do beielve so many of us are on the fence with one leg over it. I personally leaning towards the defence, but know in a instant that leg can swing the other way and only basing my opinion on what the crown has proven to me ( Just a typical mom )

We have only heard one side of this so far and thats the side who is trying to convict him and we have strung him up for the worst of the worst crimes someone could commit ( hurting a child ) and we havent heard one thing from the defence.

But, at the very least he needs to be held accountable for what participation he did have and that alone could put him away for life and we will only know the whole story or what we are gonna hear when the defence starts their side

 

[Oldsoul2]

The question of the evening is "Did TLM actually kill Tori"?

YES

She says so herself. If people want to believe her claims about MR raping, why not believe her claims of killing?

I don't. Here's why IMO. Logic, evidence and motivation or purpose.

1) She said MR raped her, we believe her because Tori's body was found without pants or underwear. That is evidence, a fact and TLM told LE this happened because she knew her goose was cooked and when they found the body, that is what they would find. The motivation for that, throw in the towel, call it a day, who knows, maybe the fact it happened to her as a child mortified her and there's a tiny teensy little heart in her left. This is an undeniable fact that that child was raped, along with the evidence of his sperm mixed with her blood is common sense. No one here fabricated it.

2) When she first confessed to LE that MR's was the one who struck the final blow, she had nothing left to lose. Whether or not it was her or him, she was going away for 25 years as an accessory to murder or a murderess. She only changed her story when she was told that she would have to testify against him, another fact, and thought that if she claimed it was her, she could avoid doing that. The motivation behind that one is clear but no one here is in her head to know other from that, her own real reasoning as to why she didn't want to do that. That is why I do not believe she did it, top that with her recollection of the entire environment around her that was so precise that an agent was able to find the body with a picture, evidence of the crime scene, I really doubt she could pay that much attention to every detail around her in the process of the crime. Also, if in fact she had this flashback, logically, IMO I doubt Tori would have been the source of her anger that brought it on, it would have been MR and she would have hit him with the hammer which IMO she should have and spared Tori.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

But I still get stuck on the part about offering Tory as a gift. The defence did speculate that that is what TLM did regardless of at what point she did it, and :moo: it doesn't make sense that she would do that without any indication from MTR that he was interested in that.

Good point. And if we are to believe the exact sequence of events as Derstine puts it, MTR knew she was being held for drug debt before she offered him as a gift. At that point it should have click for him, he should have left TLM there and gotten Victoria and left, dropped Victoria at home, even anonymously whould have been better than what was to come.

 

[swedie]

TLM has proven herself to be such. Nuking a dog, robbing a knife point, killing a child, etc. JMO

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/22/stafford-rafferty-trial-thurs.html

Yep, that's what TLM has admitted to. I for one would love to hear MR giving testimony on the stand and being honest. Doubt this will ever happen though. I mean the being honest part. I'm sure he has many buried skeletons he doesn't want anyone to know about, including his bad childhood , how he didn't get along with his brothers/family, mom's common law partner. Then how he was shipped off from home to live with an aunt and uncle. IMHO, what a terrible time to chose to ship your child off; talk about mental turmoil for a kid or teen to deal with. Doesn't sound like he got a grip, as he dropped out of school after only earning one credit. Unfortunately we are not privy to his juvie records if he has one darn. HTH and :moo:

 

[Oldsoul2]

The defence did not say that at all, the defence suggested TLM took Tori because of a drug debt. At some point later she told MR that she took Tori because of a drug debt, and even later, she offered Tori to MR as a gift.



http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19543041.html

As I recall, she never said she took Tori as a drug debt, nor did she claim to give her as a gift and she never testified to that. MR's defense suggested it and MR suggested that in his claims to other people that Tori's mom COULD be the issue because she owed money. TLM never told MR any of that in any fact I have read other than a defense theory. Please add a link to this testimony.

 

[myzzy]

Good point. And if we are to believe the exact sequence of events as Derstine puts it, MTR knew she was being held for drug debt before she offered him as a gift. At that point it should have click for him, he should have left TLM there and gotten Victoria and left, dropped Victoria at home, even anonymously whould have been better than what was to come.

I agree and hopefully this will come out when the defence starts their side of the case

 

[dilbert]

As I recall, she never said she took Tori as a drug debt, nor did she claim to give her as a gift and she never testified to that. MR's defense suggested it and MR suggested that in his claims to other people that Tori's mom COULD be the issue because she owed money. TLM never told MR any of that in any fact I have read other than a defense theory. Please add a link to this testimony.

I know that, and that is what I said, the DEFENCE suggested...

Originally Posted by dilbert View Post
The defence did not say that at all, the defence suggested TLM took Tori because of a drug debt. At some point later she told MR that she took Tori because of a drug debt, and even later, she offered Tori to MR as a gift.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/r.../19543041.html

 

[Flowercb]

Yes, but I think in those kinds of situations the mother knows that the abuser wants that? What would make TLM think out of the blue that MTR would want that kind of gift? Did TLM have a habit of offering her boyfriends this kind of gift? Had she abducted any children in the past to give as gifts?

Good Point. Why would TLM "Offer" Tori as a "Gift" unless it was prearranged (he said he wanted this). You would think she would be jealous anyway. :moo:

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Good point. And if we are to believe the exact sequence of events as Derstine puts it, MTR knew she was being held for drug debt before she offered him as a gift. At that point it should have click for him, he should have left TLM there and gotten Victoria and left, dropped Victoria at home, even anonymously whould have been better than what was to come.

And why would he think that taking her to a safehouse would keep Tory from eventually telling someone about his "innocent" involvement unless he knew that once at the safehouse Tory would eventually be unable to do so which indicates she would be harmed there. Either way he was leading her to her doom. The only thing he could possibly do :moo: to save her from harm would have been to take her home or some place that had no connection to drugs, TLM, any other criminal or criminal organization.

 

[Alethea Dice]

The list has been posted many times for your convenience so if you go back and check you'll see they were all involved with him at the same time.

The original point in question was that even with this 4-5 women on the line, he was still excessively trolling, contacting and making dates with many other women...at the same time.

Not the behaviour of a guy looking for any kind of lasting romance with any one woman. He was using and manipulating anyone and everyone of the female persuasion that he could both before and after this crime.

MOO

Actually, I did check the list and found that it had very few dates of when he actually dated each woman. In most cases, it only says when they "met on POF". So I compared it to AG's list, as well as some tweets, and thus was able to rule out that he had dated 3 of those women that you had quoted, at the same time. I had considered doing a new list with the actual dates, if known, of when they dated, but decided against it since it's totally irrelevant and has nothing to do with whether he's guilty or not.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. My opinion, which I am equally entitled to as well, is that texting, calling and meeting for coffee to see if you're compatible is neither dating nor using and manipulating.

 

[snoofer]

I agree and hopefully this will come out when the defence starts their side of the case

i REALLY want to hear the defence about why a 28 year old man would take an 8 year old girl out of town for any reason :what::twocents:

 

[swedie]

Snipped from your post Jolady


I most definitely was not referring to you jolady. I'm mostly trying to understand why those who feel he should be found not guilty feel that way.:seeya:

:moo:Because they can :yesss: Hey I never thought of this before; maybe those are law students; wannabe defense lawyers. It's not about justice for the victim but getting an accused off of abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder charges. Wonder if Derstine regrets being a defense lawyer and taking this case on? Not about justice but just playing by the books, kwim? :moo:

 

[antiquegirl]

So this is now considered acceptable "dating" behaviour? Using multiple women for whatever needs you have at any given time? I bet if you asked the 10 or so women involved in this they'd think differently. I bet a few of them will never get over this. To just brush it off like it's no big deal is kind of disrespectful to each and every one of them IMO.

MOO

I have now re-read my post to which this replies several times and still have no idea what you're referring to. I was discussing only the "relationship" between TLM and MTR. Nowhere do I see any mention of other women or disrespect to anyone.

If anything, I feel sorry for all of the women (except TLM) who got mixed up with MTR. They got a raw deal at the time and continue to get one with being forced to testify in court, adding to the horror and humiliation. That only two of them (so far) got anonymity from the media is unfair. IMO, none of their full names should have been allowed to be published. They could have used initials, as we do here, or first names and last initials. ITA that they will never get over this.

JMO

 

[OhSoCurious]

It surely does make a huge difference WHO told the first lie in this situation. She who lured Tori into the car. Her lies may even extend to justifying Tori getting in the car to MR. We do not know. Impulsive liars can kidnap a child out of bitter revenge. She does not deserve the credit of being a mastermind. She deserves the title of being a heartless killer. In general gang members (and supporters) have no respect for the value of life. JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

And why would he think that taking her to a safehouse would keep Tory from eventually telling someone about his "innocent" involvement unless he knew that once at the safehouse Tory would eventually be unable to do so which indicates she would be harmed there. Either way he was leading her to her doom. The only thing he could possibly do :moo: to save her from harm would have been to take her home or some place that had no connection to drugs, TLM, any other criminal or criminal organization.

Exactly, so whichever version you believe, crown or defense, in crown's version this was all planned by both so he knew Tori was going to die, in defense's version, he knew at one point before she died before she was offered as a gift that she was a drug debt and that it may cause Tori's death. And to explain the rape, he thought, 'hey since we're going to kill her, I may as well have fun first'. Sorry to be so blunt.

 

[swedie]

[/B]

Canadian law presumes that we can't "accidentally" commit some crimes.

Technically under Canadian law an assault occurs if I push someone, or threaten to push someone.........without their consent...........and if I intended to push or threaten them.

Merely brushing up against someone is not assault, unless it was intended.

That is a little different concept than motive.

So in other words, MR intended to take TLM and Tori all the way to Mount Forest and bury Tori under a rock pile. Or did TLM hid Tori in her white puffy coat all that way and MR had no idea she was there? :waitasec:

 

[daisy.faithfull]

what is msm and ykwim?:twocents:

Sorry. Main Stream Media and You Know What I Mean.