weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[Oldsoul2]

I'm having a difficult time figuring out how people can so easily discount TLM's lies. The lies she told were HUGE, potentially life altering lies. She lied and said someone brutally killed a child, when it was, in fact, SHE who killed that child. Compare that to MR's lies to the women he dated and conversed with online and I fail so see how that makes him more evil than her.

She didn't tell just two lies either, she lied to the police numerous times.
At first she denied any and all involvement, that's a lie. How many times was she asked about her involvement and how many lies did she tell in order to throw the suspicion off of her. More lies. The accusation of rape could be another potentially life altering lie, as well as the lie she told about who's idea it was to buy the hammer and garbage bags.

She LIED to Tori in order to lure her to the car, she LIED to her family after she nuked the little puppy...LIES LIES and MORE LIES.

The most telling lie, IMO, is the lie she told on the stand while Derstine was reading all those letters she had written in juvie, letters full of violent thoughts and ideas about hurting people. She LIED on the stand, UNDER OATH and stated that was a long time ago, she's not like that anymore. Another lie. The very next day Derstine presented information showing TLM had violently assaulted a fellow inmate THIS YEAR!!, as well as statements she made to her godmother, that she had no remorse and would kill again.

How anyone can even begin to compare the lies she told to the ones MR told about his career choice, I'll never understand.
Yes, MR lied to the police too, but so did TLM, and her lies IMO were far more damaging than the ones MR told.

MOO

This post pains me to read. With all due respect Dilbert, TLM has confessed and waived trial. Look up how many times in history, a person who knew they would get 25 years and maybe never see the light of day again with denied parole, admit to the crime without trying to get out of it. Don't get me wrong here, she's a troubled, bad person and a liar and deserves to be where she is but it is IMO, worse to commit a crime against a child to this capacity and attempt to take no responsibility for it which shows a clear lack of empathy and remorse and that to me is a monster. This child was raped and killed at 8 years old, all he cares about is trying to save his .

 

[Alethea Dice]

* Defense will blame it on MR's identical twin brother who no one knew about other then MR. Remember that twin brother who was kidnapped at a young age and raised by the people who kidnapped him.

* MR's clone did it.

* Aliens abducted MR and planted an evil chip into his brain.

Does anyone find it strange Derstine did not give an opening statement? :waitasec:From what I have read and posted here up there somewhere, it's not the norm and doesn't usually sit well with the jurors. I've had visions of Derstine sitting at his desk night after night scratching out parts of his written tactical plan muttering "damn Crown, that excuse won't fly now thanks to those witnesses, back to square one ugh". :doh: :moo:

This issue has been resolved many times in this forum, twice in this thread alone. See post [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7789587&postcount=209"]209[/ame] and post [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7791081&postcount=282"]282[/ame]. It is not "the norm" in Canada. The defense's turn to make his opening statement is after the Crown's witnesses testify and are cross-examined, and before the Defense calls their own witnesses, if any.

 

[snoofer]

Sorry. Main Stream Media and You Know What I Mean.

:dunno: it gets all so confusing. Thanks.

 

[Tahorn]

I get that. But :moo: is that someone wouldn't think to go to that kind of desperate act unless it were asked of them. Otherwise, I'd think that offering a child sexually to a romantic partner would have quite the opposite effect. Even in TLM's demented little mind, I think that she would know that offering a child sexually to someone who had never indicated interest in that would defiantly end the relationship.

TLM was a wannabe gangster ... I believe that recruiting into gangs one has to commit a crime so they can trust you will never turn on them without risking yourself.

VS being in his car was enough to keep him quiet, no matter what he said no one would believe him ...

After all how would she take the fall if VS was raped ...

 

[myzzy]

i REALLY want to hear the defence about why a 28 year old man would take an 8 year old girl out of town for any reason :what::twocents:

You and me both!

I do hope he takes the stand to give some idea of him as a person. I want to see his reaction to questions, and hear his answers.

In a bit we should hear if he will take the stand i would think when defence opens up and gives their outline of the case?

 

[OhSoCurious]

Look up how many times in history, a person who knew they would get 25 years and maybe never see the light of day again with denied parole, admit to the crime without trying to get out of it.

Perhaps TLM feels most comfortable in the environment of prison? I can see the confines serving her well. Her quality and standard of living is likely higher inside than out too! MOO

 

[swedie]

So this is now considered acceptable "dating" behaviour? Using multiple women for whatever needs you have at any given time? I bet if you asked the 10 or so women involved in this they'd think differently. I bet a few of them will never get over this. To just brush it off like it's no big deal is kind of disrespectful to each and every one of them IMO.

MOO

:clap::tyou::goodpost:

 

[OhSoCurious]

FYI - 3 in 100 people have scoliosis. I am one of them. It is a slim percentage of people with scoliosis that experience pain from it. It is very rare to needs pain meds.

 

[flipflop]

I agree and hopefully this will come out when the defence starts their side of the case

Terri-Lynne McClintic abducted and murdered Tori Stafford to settle a drug debt and even “offered” the little girl sexually to her then boyfriend Michael Rafferty.

When Rafferty turned down that “gift,” McClintic told him to drive north, ostensibly to a safe house. But in a secluded laneway in rural Mount Forest, McClintic asked Rafferty for a little time alone to talk to Tori. When he returned to the car, McClintic had hammered her to death.

That is what happened on April 8 2009, Dirk Derstine, Rafferty’s lawyer, said as he confronted McClintic on Friday and outlined the defence’s theory for the first time.

“Mr. Rafferty came back after the death ... he was horrified but helped you (clean up),” Derstine told McClintic, adding that she was the mastermind behind the horrific plot to kill Tori.


http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/a...intic-was-killing-s-mastermind-lawyer-charges

So according to the defence, MR turned down the "gift" but agreed to drive her to a safehouse as she was being held for a drug debt. Driving a child anywhere but home in this case is kidnapping. This proves that he is guilty of kidnapping!!!

According to the defence, MR helped clean up the crime scene proves that MR was involved and guilty of murder.

As for the sexual assault charge, I do not believe the defence when he states that MR turned down the gift. The missing clothing of VS and the forensics of blood/sperm found on the car and gym bag proves that a sexual assault happened.

The Defence can try and prove all they want that TLM was the mastermind, I believe it will not make any difference.


GUILTY as charged!!!!! This is all JMO

 

[snoofer]

Perhaps TLM feels most comfortable in the environment of prison? I can see the confines serving her well. Her quality and standard of living is likely higher inside than out too! MOO

except that doesn't her most recent testimony or even her first confession make her a rat and a child killer? or is ratting out a rapist supposed to lessen her position as a child killer in "prison yard terms". I am trying to figure out if TLM was trying to do "the right thing" or if not what was her gain. To stay in prison as life is better inside but if that were true would the life of a rat or child killer still be better inside???:waitasec::twocents: If it wasn't to "do the right thing" then what would the benefit of continuing to lie be. Just revenge? If that is case then why not continue with first confession, why change. JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

:moo:Because they can :yesss: Hey I never thought of this before; maybe those are law students; wannabe defense lawyers. It's not about justice for the victim but getting an accused off of abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder charges. Wonder if Derstine regrets being a defense lawyer and taking this case on? Not about justice but just playing by the books, kwim? :moo:

I doubt Derstine would regret being a defense lawyer, I'd want a good defense lawyer to represent me too if I were innocent of a crime. I don't think they go into a trial thinking their client is guilty. I think it's better for the accused to think his lawyer thinks he's innocent whether he is or not.

 

[ChaChaCha]

This post pains me to read. With all due respect Dilbert, TLM has confessed and waived trial. Look up how many times in history, a person who knew they would get 25 years and maybe never see the light of day again with denied parole, admit to the crime without trying to get out of it. Don't get me wrong here, she's a troubled, bad person and a liar and deserves to be where she is but it is IMO, worse to commit a crime against a child to this capacity and attempt to take no responsibility for it which shows a clear lack of empathy and remorse and that to me is a monster. This child was raped and killed at 8 years old, all he cares about is trying to save his .

TLM did not "confess". Det Smythe had to cajole it out of her in bits and pieces. If her redeemable quality is that she attempted to assit LE to find TS and gave her version of what happened then that is her only redeeming quality.

Please remember that she was sentenced under false pretences - the |Statement of Facts in her sentencing did not acknowledge that she is the one that murdered Tori.

Why? Because if that came out no faint hope clause for her ever ... and she would be designated a dangerous offender - never to see the outside ever again.
She knows how the system works and she is clever, conivng and self-serving enough to use it to her advantage and to punish MR for having other "girlfriends" as well.

JMO

 

[matou]

I'm having a difficult time figuring out how people can so easily discount TLM's lies. The lies she told were HUGE, potentially life altering lies. She lied and said someone brutally killed a child, when it was, in fact, SHE who killed that child. Compare that to MR's lies to the women he dated and conversed with online and I fail so see how that makes him more evil than her.

She didn't tell just two lies either, she lied to the police numerous times.
At first she denied any and all involvement, that's a lie. How many times was she asked about her involvement and how many lies did she tell in order to throw the suspicion off of her. More lies. The accusation of rape could be another potentially life altering lie, as well as the lie she told about who's idea it was to buy the hammer and garbage bags.

She LIED to Tori in order to lure her to the car, she LIED to her family after she nuked the little puppy...LIES LIES and MORE LIES.

The most telling lie, IMO, is the lie she told on the stand while Derstine was reading all those letters she had written in juvie, letters full of violent thoughts and ideas about hurting people. She LIED on the stand, UNDER OATH and stated that was a long time ago, she's not like that anymore. Another lie. The very next day Derstine presented information showing TLM had violently assaulted a fellow inmate THIS YEAR!!, as well as statements she made to her godmother, that she had no remorse and would kill again.

How anyone can even begin to compare the lies she told to the ones MR told about his career choice, I'll never understand.
Yes, MR lied to the police too, but so did TLM, and her lies IMO were far more damaging than the ones MR told.

MOO

The puppy thing CAN NOT be verified AT ALL. I know it is shocking but it could have been a story that she has accepted to go with since it ONLY came out at the same time as her NEW VERSION of events r.e. Tori.

"She's not like that anymore." Kicking and getting into a fight with another inmate is really NOT that surprising and shocking at all. She kicked a person while they were down, it is what someone would do in a fight IMO. It's typical not atypical of someone in a fight. A prison guard would likely testify to seeing that type of fighting behaviour as not unusual in a fight, IMO.

The lies she told to police were likely what Rafferty told her to say to police. BRING TORI HOME was on Rafferty's MYSPACE. WE'RE PRAYING FOR TORI. I think that's pretty demented. HE could have brought Tori home. Instead, he was shacking up with multiple women up until just before the date of his arrest. What happened to his car seat? What happened to his knife blade? What happened to his white shirt and other clothes from that day? In my opinion, they are BOTH culpable of the death of this poor innocent girl. JMO MOO

 

[maxfactor]

Or maybe the information was so prejudicial against the dealer that the rules of evidence kept it from being presented to the jury.

Just sayin'

Salem

My thoughts exactly!!!!:rocker:

 

[matou]

The defence did not say that at all, the defence suggested TLM took Tori because of a drug debt. At some point later she told MR that she took Tori because of a drug debt, and even later, she offered Tori to MR as a gift.
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19543041.html

What's the point of Derstine even bringing this up anyway? To rationalize why Rafferty raped Tori? I don't get it. JMO

 

[snoofer]

:twocents::twocents:

FYI - 3 in 100 people have scoliosis. I am one of them. It is a slim percentage of people with scoliosis that experience pain from it. It is very rare to needs pain meds.

..most especially iv drugs

 

[Macright]

TLM did not "confess". Det Smythe had to cajole it out of her in bits and pieces. If her redeemable quality is that she attempted to assit LE to find TS and gave her version of what happened then that is her only redeeming quality.

Please remember that she was sentenced under false pretences - the |Statement of Facts in her sentencing did not acknowledge that she is the one that murdered Tori.

Why? Because if that came out no faint hope clause for her ever ... and she would be designated a dangerous offender - never to see the outside ever again.
She knows how the system works and she is clever, conivng and self-serving enough to use it to her advantage and to punish MR for having other "girlfriends" as well.

JMO

okay I am going to ask a very dumb question here now:blushing::blushing::blushing:...since she had pleaded guilty in 2010 and received her 25 year sentence (which as you say could give her the chance of the faint hope clause) now because she has turned it all around and admitted to LE and the court that she was the one who really murdered Tori...well I guess my dumb question now is..can her original sentence be overturned and be re-sentenced or does it mean that the original sentence stands but for the record her admission of being the actual killer be duly noted in order for the faint hope clause to not appy to her down the road.... hope I have posted this clearly....:maddening:

 

[Hello_Kitty]

TLM was a wannabe gangster ... I believe that recruiting into gangs one has to commit a crime so they can trust you will never turn on them without risking yourself.
VS being in his car was enough to keep him quiet, no matter what he said no one would believe him ...

After all how would she take the fall if VS was raped ...

That isn't the motive Derstine is putting forward. He says that she told him much later on during the drive, that it was for a drug debt. So I'm not sure where this coming from.

 

[swedie]

I'm having a difficult time figuring out how people can so easily discount TLM's lies. The lies she told were HUGE, potentially life altering lies. She lied and said someone brutally killed a child, when it was, in fact, SHE who killed that child. Compare that to MR's lies to the women he dated and conversed with online and I fail so see how that makes him more evil than her.

She didn't tell just two lies either, she lied to the police numerous times.
At first she denied any and all involvement, that's a lie. How many times was she asked about her involvement and how many lies did she tell in order to throw the suspicion off of her. More lies. The accusation of rape could be another potentially life altering lie, as well as the lie she told about who's idea it was to buy the hammer and garbage bags.

She LIED to Tori in order to lure her to the car, she LIED to her family after she nuked the little puppy...LIES LIES and MORE LIES.

The most telling lie, IMO, is the lie she told on the stand while Derstine was reading all those letters she had written in juvie, letters full of violent thoughts and ideas about hurting people. She LIED on the stand, UNDER OATH and stated that was a long time ago, she's not like that anymore. Another lie. The very next day Derstine presented information showing TLM had violently assaulted a fellow inmate THIS YEAR!!, as well as statements she made to her godmother, that she had no remorse and would kill again.

How anyone can even begin to compare the lies she told to the ones MR told about his career choice, I'll never understand.
Yes, MR lied to the police too, but so did TLM, and her lies IMO were far more damaging than the ones MR told.

MOO

Huge problem here IMHO. TLM has talked, MR hasn't. And if and/or when he does, I highly doubt we will hear any truth. All riddled with lies. His life is one big constant lie by the sounds of it. HTH :moo:

 

[~n/t~]

I guess the sad part there is a female witness (TM) did testify in fact there was a drug debt. JMO

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1142826--tori-stafford-murder-trial-mother-s-shortcomings

"Many of the rumours then bruited about the woman were confirmed in her courtroom testimony: the Oxycontin, the drug debt her boyfriend had accrued, with a further detail revealed on the stand: “He did rip somebody off for Oxycontin, 20 or 30 pills,” $400 owed to dealers."

I'm pages behind but wanted to address this. Why does the defense have to prove motive? Even if it was a drug debt (which I totally do not believe), how does justify kidnapping, raping and murdering an 8 year old little girl?

I seriously don't get how that would let the accused child killer off the hook. :waitasec: