weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[~n/t~]

what is the point of this trial? Because it is MTR's right and this is all an exercise in futility for him? :what: Wow. Expensive.:twocents:

I wonder what the statistics are on those who plead compared to those who go to trial and are still found guilty. I wonder what the statistics say about which group gets the more servere sentence or is it all equal in the end.:twocents:

I think when it comes to parole time, that is when it makes a difference. Both will be declared dangerous offenders anyway and will never get out, imo.

Karla Homolka got a deal and that is the only reason she's out. I have never heard of anyone sentenced to first degree murder getting out.

Paul Bernardo was declared a dangerous offender, and given the facts of his case, most experts agree he is unlikely to ever be released (though he can still apply periodically). Russell Williams, however, has not been declared a dangerous offender and thus will be eligible for parole after serving 25 years in prison. It's impossible to know whether Williams will eventually be granted parole or not.

http://www.accused.ca/parole.htm

 

[swedie]

But I still get stuck on the part about offering Tory as a gift. The defence did speculate that that is what TLM did regardless of at what point she did it, and :moo: it doesn't make sense that she would do that without any indication from MTR that he was interested in that.

Hmm IIRC KH offered her sister as a gift to PB per his request. Majority of children abducted are for sexual purposed when a male is involved. It would be interesting to see the statistics on children being abducted for drug debts. I bet there isn't a report available because it just doesn't happen. Tis a ridiculous theory spit out by the defense. MOO

 

[snoofer]

:twocents:

She ADMITTED to her GODMOTHER in 2012 that she put the puppy in the microwave and LIED about it after, she ADMITTED on the stand that she put the dog in the microwave. Why would she lie about that if she didn't do it? That's enough for me to prove she did it.

Lets be fair, if MR admitted to someone that he put a puppy in the microwave, even though there were no other proof he did it, you and a whole bunch of other people would believe it to be true. So why not believe TLM did that?

Regarding TLM fighting in prison, that is not surprising to me that SHE did that, after all we've heard of her propensity for violence. She lied on the stand when she said she had changed, when really she hadn't changed at all. She wasn't fighting to protect herself, she manipulated the prison peer to peer program in order to get the one inmate (that said bad things about her) alone so she could beat her up. Act of revenge? Oh yes.

Regarding the last part of your post, I am not denying MR lied to cover up his involvement in the crime, he lied just as much about it as TLM did. No doubt about that. My original post on this subject was referring to the lies he told all his "dates", I don't see how those lies are relevant to his guilt/innocence in this case.



That's very interesting that he would bring this up considering, in the same suggestion, Derstine said MR declined the offer. Maybe he brought it up because it's the truth?

MOO

character

:moo: and another tick on the box for whichever disorder he gets labelled with

 

[~n/t~]

They're trying to prove that MTR didn't know that she was being kidnapped for a drug debt when TLM put Tori in the car. So, to them that justifies him driving her out of Woodstock with TLM. Also they are saying that MTR was offered Tori as a gift and that he refused.

I think their theory sucks, I wouldn't even drive a child I didn't know to purchase a baggie of percs. (Not that I buy illegal drugs)

Agreed. It makes no sense whatsoever. I just don't understand the logic behind that theory, anyway. Even if it was for a drug debt, what in the world was he doing with a stranger's child in his car. That in itself makes him guilty, doesn't it? :waitasec:

I'm still looking for logic from the defense and I haven't seen anything that comes anywhere close. Heck, they admitted he was there and covered it up.

 

[ChaChaCha]

I'm pages behind but wanted to address this. Why does the defense have to prove motive? Even if it was a drug debt (which I totally do not believe), how does justify kidnapping, raping and murdering an 8 year old little girl?

I seriously don't get how that would let the accused child killer off the hook. :waitasec:

I doubt very much he will get off the hook, but the jury does have the option of a finding of Murder One, Murder Two or Manslaughter. <modsnip>. Each conviction carries a different sentence of years served and eligibility for parole.

 

[~n/t~]

Have any of you heard of a gangster or drug dealer kidnapping and murdering a child for revenge on a parent? Any cases out there? I can't think of any.

 

[~n/t~]

I doubt very much he will get off the hook, but the jury does have the option of a finding of Murder One, Murder Two or Manslaughter. We have been through this on the forum many, many times. Each conviction carries a different sentence of years served and eligibility for parole.

Do you have a link to that information that the jury can convict on a lesser charge? I must've missed it. TIA

 

[snoofer]

:twocents:

JMO Her sentence was 25 years with no chance of parole. She can't get anything worse than this. .

is 25 years considered the "life sentence" or is there another penalty that is "life" meaning more than 25 years. I just want to know if the 25 is arbitrary or does it mean at 25 years the door opens and out they go:twocents:

 

[Hello_Kitty]

It doesn't matter if TLM was the one who actually swung the hammer or not, she is guilty either way. Just like MTR is guilty regardless of whether or not he swung the hammer if he knew that it was a kidnapping that would likely result in Troy's death at the time she was abducted.

I don't think it's just at the time of abduction, if he knew at any point before Tori died that she would die as a result of them having taken her, he could still be found guilty of 1st degree murder.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

what is the point of this trial? Because it is MTR's right and this is all an exercise in futility for him? :what: Wow. Expensive.:twocents:

I wonder what the statistics are on those who plead compared to those who go to trial and are still found guilty. I wonder what the statistics say about which group gets the more servere sentence or is it all equal in the end.:twocents:

I'm not sure what you're asking. I was just pointing out that TLM's sentence will not be effected since she is now saying that she, not MTR, delivered the blow that was determined to cause Tory's death.

It's the same thing when it comes to MTR. He does not have to have delivered the fatal blow to be found guilty for Tory's murder. It doesn't matter who actually killed Tory, they are both guilty of her murder if they were both in on the crime.

I would say that this trial is about many things, it is about justice, it is about determining a verdict beyond a reasonable doubt. Sadly, I don't really know if we will ever know the complete truth regardless of the verdict. I feel MTR is guilty, that he and TLM kidnapped Tory, he raped Tory and then TLM killed her, but I can't be certain that that is exactly what happened. MTR could have killed Tory. It is a great tragedy that we cannot be certain of what the whole entire truth is, but that does not make this trial an exercise in futility :moo: That is not what I was saying.

 

[snoofer]

Have any of you heard of a gangster or drug dealer kidnapping and murdering a child for revenge on a parent? Any cases out there? I can't think of any.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5671683-504083.html

similar but not exactly what you mean but I think in the states it IS common to go after family or threaten family if you owe drug debt. :twocents: I am sure I have seen many cases in the news. Lemme see what I can find.:twocents:

http://www.drugsandalcohol.ie/13031/

I myself do not believe this is the case in this case but in general I think that drug dealers and drug debt collectors are and can be a very violent bunch, as violent and as nasty or deviant as the individual who is doing the collecting and enforcing. IMO
http://www.canada.com/national/feat....html?id=ff1de829-a2bf-45b1-bdb1-bc3dea487cdc

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/aug/18/local/me-6698

lots of cases out there IMO
JMO

 

[matou]

She ADMITTED to her GODMOTHER in 2012 that she put the puppy in the microwave and LIED about it after, she ADMITTED on the stand that she put the dog in the microwave. Why would she lie about that if she didn't do it? That's enough for me to prove she did it.

Lets be fair, if MR admitted to someone that he put a puppy in the microwave, even though there were no other proof he did it, you and a whole bunch of other people would believe it to be true. So why not believe TLM did that?

Regarding TLM fighting in prison, that is not surprising to me that SHE did that, after all we've heard of her propensity for violence. She lied on the stand when she said she had changed, when really she hadn't changed at all. She wasn't fighting to protect herself, she manipulated the prison peer to peer program in order to get the one inmate (that said bad things about her) alone so she could beat her up. Act of revenge? Oh yes.

Regarding the last part of your post, I am not denying MR lied to cover up his involvement in the crime, he lied just as much about it as TLM did. No doubt about that. My original post on this subject was referring to the lies he told all his "dates", I don't see how those lies are relevant to his guilt/innocence in this case.



That's very interesting that he would bring this up considering, in the same suggestion, Derstine said MR declined the offer. Maybe he brought it up because it's the truth?

MOO

TLM did lie, you are correct. I believe she lied about killing Tori and kicking her. It doesn't fit and her testimony doesn't even make sense. About the dog, which I think is BS too, I think she stuck with the story after telling her GODMOTHER about it because it would fit with her changing her story. Changing her story for whatever reason, maybe to not be a "GOOF" in prison? Maybe she never wants to get out of prison ever, maybe she wants to die in there? And she denied Derstine's story about what happened:

The kidnapping, Mr. Derstine asked McClintic, was “your idea and yours alone?” She replied, “You’re mistaken. You’re very incorrect.”
It was she, Mr. Derstine went on, who got Tori in the car as part of some unspecified “drug debt” scheme, and she who “offered her, sexually” to Mr. Rafferty?
“I very much disagree,” McClintic replied.
When Mr. Rafferty refused “your gift,” he told her, she sent him away from the car, killed the little girl.
“When Michael Rafferty came back after the death,” Mr. Derstine claimed, “he was horrified, but helped in the cleanup?”
McClintic flatly denied it.

But anyway, this is Rafferty's trial now and his sperm and Tori's blood are mixed together on the side moulding of the back passenger door, right where TLM said he was while he was raping Tori, with the door open. If she did "offer" Tori to him sexually, it's obvious he took her up on her offer and that is a crime. Combined with abduction and the fact that Tori died at that same location, that makes him guilty in my opinion.

"She sent him away from the car." Derstine didn't even leave it open to him driving away in his vehicle and leaving them both, TLM and Tori, there together. Big mistake. Where could he have gone that he did not see or hear ANYTHING that happened? Did he walk along the sideroad? Did he walk in circles, listening to TLM's ipod? That story is so ridiculous. WHERE did Rafferty go? Did he hitchhike? Derstine better come up with something good to explain where MR walked to during that time. When did he know when to come back? Was he gone for an hour, half an hour? Good luck with that. JMO

 

[brighidin]

I think when it comes to parole time, that is when it makes a difference. Both will be declared dangerous offenders anyway and will never get out, imo.

Here is some background information on the dangerous offender designation.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2010/10/21/f-dangerous-offender.html

Quoted from the article: "Crown attorneys can seek the designation during sentencing and must show that there is a high risk that the criminal will commit violent or sexual offences in the future."

Was TLM declared one? I haven't seen that anywhere. If not, she can apply for parole 25 year after she was sentenced. She will still be relatively young.

Has the Crown indicated whether or not they are going to seek dangerous offender status for MR?

Russel Williams hasn't been declared one.

 

[brighidin]

Have any of you heard of a gangster or drug dealer kidnapping and murdering a child for revenge on a parent? Any cases out there? I can't think of any.

No, here they just stab or shoot each other. Mostly stab. Lots of stabbings here.

 

[dilbert]

TLM did lie, you are correct. I believe she lied about killing Tori and kicking her. It doesn't fit and her testimony doesn't even make sense. About the dog, which I think is BS too, I think she stuck with the story after telling her GODMOTHER about it because it would fit with her changing her story. Changing her story for whatever reason, maybe to not be a "GOOF" in prison? Maybe she never wants to get out of prison ever, maybe she wants to die in there? And she denied Derstine's story about what happened:



But anyway, this is Rafferty's trial now and his sperm and Tori's blood are mixed together on the side moulding of the back passenger door, right where TLM said he was while he was raping Tori, with the door open. If she did "offer" Tori to him sexually, it's obvious he took her up on her offer and that is a crime. Combined with abduction and the fact that Tori died at that same location, that makes him guilty in my opinion.

"She sent him away from the car." Derstine didn't even leave it open to him driving away in his vehicle and leaving them both, TLM and Tori, there together. Big mistake. Where could he have gone that he did not see or hear ANYTHING that happened? Did he walk along the sideroad? Did he walk in circles, listening to TLM's ipod? That story is so ridiculous. WHERE did Rafferty go? Did he hitchhike? Derstine better come up with something good to explain where MR walked to during that time. When did he know when to come back? Was he gone for an hour, half an hour? Good luck with that. JMO

Wait, who's sperm? In your opinion maybe, but AFAIK, it hasn't been scientifically determined who's sperm it was.

MOO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I think when it comes to parole time, that is when it makes a difference. Both will be declared dangerous offenders anyway and will never get out, imo.

Karla Homolka got a deal and that is the only reason she's out. I have never heard of anyone sentenced to first degree murder getting out.



http://www.accused.ca/parole.htm

As of July 2006, there were 351 active offenders with the Dangerous Offender designation. Of these offenders, 18 have received parole and 333 are currently incarcerated.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

If one wants to argue that TLM has never offered a child to a boyfriend before, then the same argument can be made that MTR has no record of having molested children before. Neither has been proven.

I fail to understand why people want a precedent for everything. Yes, having statistics or a history of similar behaviour would bolster an argument, but it's not necessary. Everyone has to start somewhere. Or, if you prefer, there's a first time for everything.

Each person is unique, as is the way his/her mind works. How and when impulses or whims become reality would vary from one human to the next.

JMO

I understand what you are saying antiquegirl. And I'm not saying that there has to be a precedent, but I will say that it would be much more obvious if children connected to TLM were going missing than if children connected with MTR were being molested because a missing child is going to draw much more attention than a child that may or may not tell their parents that they are being sexually abused.

Giving a child to someone as a grift doesn't have to be something that TLM did before, but I stand by my point that it is something that :moo: is quite odd for someone to do out of the blue. Yes, TLM is a very twisted person, but :moo: I just don't see it happening that way.

 

[Tahorn]

Hmm IIRC KH offered her sister as a gift to PB per his request. Majority of children abducted are for sexual purposed when a male is involved. It would be interesting to see the statistics on children being abducted for drug debts. I bet there isn't a report available because it just doesn't happen. Tis a ridiculous theory spit out by the defense. MOO

http://www.fbi.gov/philadelphia/pre...women-indicted-on-kidnapping-and-drug-charges

 

[ChaChaCha]

Hmm IIRC KH offered her sister as a gift to PB per his request. Majority of children abducted are for sexual purposed when a male is involved. It would be interesting to see the statistics on children being abducted for drug debts. I bet there isn't a report available because it just doesn't happen. Tis a ridiculous theory spit out by the defense. MOO

I would think that most pedophiles as MR is being alleged to be do not go around getting their friends to abduct young girls for them to molest ... most pedophiles groom their victims over long periods of time and the molestation escalates to intercourse. There is too much danger of getting caught - they prefer to groom a victim sufficiently so that they do not tell... and the abuse can continue. I am sure that children and adults are abducted all the time for drug debts - there was quite the number of them reported last year in Toronto (home invasions where someone was taken from the home) but assuming the victim is returned and the debt satisfied, who is going to call LE???

I think that when Derstine has his turn the whole story will come full circle back to TLM. He is being quiet now. You have to watch the quiet ones lol!

 

[swedie]

Maybe he would have if he KNEW she was being kidnapped, maybe he didn't KNOW she was being kidnapped and didn't KNOW she would be killed until it was too late to do anything at all - to which the circular argument, about why MR didn't immediately go to the police that night, begins again. I'm not one for repeating myself ad nauseum, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

MOO

And he pulled down a long, slippery, secluded laneway, which he more than likely knew was there because...? He threw out his back seat and has not told LE where it is because...? His whole interview with LE was polluted with lies because...? Oh but he visited TLM and took care of CM while TLM was incarcerated because....HE'S a NORMAL and NICE GUY? :waitasec: