weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[puppyraiser]

Facts of the case minus any forensics:
- child abducted and found deceased months later clad only in a t-shirt
-found in a location 5km (2.2 miles) from where MR was said to have worked at one time
-MR was said to know his way around the MT Forest area backroads
-sanding disks found in MR's car, appears right rear door had been sanded after white coating had been applied earlier
-bench seat of car missing
-no KNOWN history of violence on MR's part (to date)
-TLM has a history of violence
-video of VS and TLM walking together
-video of MR's car in area of school on day of abduction
-no info to date of TLM knowing the Mt Forest area or driving backroads on her own
-TLM drew detailed map of location, couldn't find it by air or road
-no info released that MR assisted in recovering Tori
-MR was active on POF after crime and meeting women
-TLM was arrested within a few days
-testimony states that both are drug users
-testimony shows that both are liars

common sense would indicate that MR, to a certain extent, played an active role in terms of where Tori was eventually found. The fact that Tori was wearing only a t-shirt would also indicate a) she had an accident and her clothing was removed or b) her clothing was removed for some other "nefarious" purpose. I would think her clothing would have been left with her if A) was the case.
It appears MR went about his life as though nothing had happened. Did he believe he wouldn't be caught because TLM said she'd take the rap, or because he felt no one would believe a known with a lengthy record if she named him?

 

[giantalkinghead]

I've finally caught up on reading... I rarely post but wanted to share a couple of my thoughts this morning. There are some really good arguments that have been brought up here on both sides. I'm TRYING to stay on the fence until all of the evidence has been presented. I'm really hoping that the trial is completed fairly and that there will be no reason that an appeal could be granted in either direction. I would hate to see the Tori's family have to go through this again. There are, at this time anyhow, 2 questions that leave me wondering...

1) the blood droplet/ sperm mix on the door frame. If I understand correctly it is also transfered to the door - but only one side was tested and it was concluded it wasn't necessary to screen the door side as it was assumed to be Tori's blood. Why oh why... do they not test the door side for sperm?? This is making me nuts !!

2) If MTR was not aware that Tori was abducted... What on earth were the garbage bags and hammer for ???

In the end...If I were on the Jury... it is my feeling that if MTR does NOT testify for himself and leaves his fate in the hands of his lawyer - I would have a difficult time not finding him guilty. Utlimately he would have to convince me ... at this point anyhow !

 

[JayFriend]

My understanding from the link posted earlier in the thread concerning that is that you have to apply to the judge to get your name and profession from being published. Maybe the others didn't or didn't know about it.

I'm picking up this thread 4 pages behind, but I have to answer this. Yes, ignorance of the law is no excuse. However, when someone is questioned, they also must be informed of their rights. Just think how all those women are now branded as POF users and Rafferty's dates. They went on the site anonymously, but now the justice system has exposed them because they agreed to testify. They should not have needed inside knowledge to be able to testify anonymously.

 

[Wondergirl]

<modsnip>

What I am trying to say...

The explanation of removing the backseat was probably concaucted in order to cover the fact there was DNA evidence left on the seat, knowing that if the seat was found in the car it would be conclusive proof a sex assault occurred. So in order to get rid of the seat what better time than spring cleanup... Probably not the most logical place to put a seat that was likely in a car where a child was killed and the potential exists you may become the prime suspect in the case.

The decoy seat scenario was a scenario of what someone who had planned well may have done... Place it out well before spring cleanup, people see it... He is caught explains the reason for the seat being removed is because xyz neighbors see it well in advance of the abduction....story checks out as to why there was no seat.

Real seat used then would be destroyed in such a manner to insure no evidence or seat would be found. But again, thats giving more credit... None of this matters anyhow... The seat was only relevant in hopes of finding DNA... Oh and as I said before... There is no suspicion at all that the car was missing the backseat... None... None at all... Yeah right!

Good call on the decoy seat scenario.

JMO

 

[Wondergirl]

Facts of the case minus any forensics:
- child abducted and found deceased months later clad only in a t-shirt
-found in a location 5km (2.2 miles) from where MR was said to have worked at one time
-MR was said to know his way around the MT Forest area backroads
-sanding disks found in MR's car, appears right rear door had been sanded after white coating had been applied earlier
-bench seat of car missing
-no KNOWN history of violence on MR's part (to date)
-TLM has a history of violence
-video of VS and TLM walking together
-video of MR's car in area of school on day of abduction
-no info to date of TLM knowing the Mt Forest area or driving backroads on her own
-TLM drew detailed map of location, couldn't find it by air or road
-no info released that MR assisted in recovering Tori
-MR was active on POF after crime and meeting women
-TLM was arrested within a few days
-testimony states that both are drug users
-testimony shows that both are liars

common sense would indicate that MR, to a certain extent, played an active role in terms of where Tori was eventually found. The fact that Tori was wearing only a t-shirt would also indicate a) she had an accident and her clothing was removed or b) her clothing was removed for some other "nefarious" purpose. I would think her clothing would have been left with her if A) was the case.
It appears MR went about his life as though nothing had happened. Did he believe he wouldn't be caught because TLM said she'd take the rap, or because he felt no one would believe a known with a lengthy record if she named him?

I agree.

It's also possible he believed he wouldn't be caught, because he had gotten away with other crimes in the past?

Look at how many women he has duped, and continues to dupe. Obviously he has "a way" about him.

Fortunately, some can see through this.

JMO

 

[puppyraiser]

Arrogance and sloppiness were the downfall of RW. His crimes went on for a few years before he was caught and not one person who knew him prior to his arrest had any cause for concern. Scary thing is that he passed psychological tests in order to proceed through the ranks of the military.

Is the same true for MR?

 

[Flowercb]

Decoy seat senario--good thinking SFB73! Now you are thinking like a criminal. lol. No offense, actually that's the way you have to think in order to not get fooled--brilliant SFB73!MOO and Thanks.

 

[nettie_82]

I find the differences of opinions to be quite interesting.
Some seem absolutely positive that MR is absolutely guilty, as charged.
Some seem unsure of some things and are waiting for all the information and evidence to be presented before they even start to decide.
Some seem positive that MR is not guilty, as charged, but only guilty of a lesser offence, such as obstruction of justice.
Some seem positive that he is absolutely innocent and that he wasn't there and this was all set up by TLM because she is just evil like that.

I am curious about what the jury has been thinking. I would think it is safe to assume that their opinions are just as varied as ours ('ours' being people posting on the internet in general, not just WS). Quite interesting, IMO.
:moo:
:moo:
:moo:

I have to wonder how long they will be deliberating on a verdict?! I hope they don't come back with a hung Jury!

 

[Sillybilly]

In the end...If I were on the Jury... it is my feeling that if MTR does NOT testify for himself and leaves his fate in the hands of his lawyer - I would have a difficult time not finding him guilty. Utlimately he would have to convince me ... at this point anyhow !

<rsbm>

Part of the judge's instructions to the jury will contain something to the effect that they are NOT to interpret the defendant's failure to take the stand as an indication of either guilt or innocence.

At this time, I strongly feel MTR is guilty on all charges against him, but am certainly open to changing that opinion, depending on what the defence presents.

 

[Kamille]

Facts of the case minus any forensics:
- child abducted and found deceased months later clad only in a t-shirt
-found in a location 5km (2.2 miles) from where MR was said to have worked at one time
-MR was said to know his way around the MT Forest area backroads
-sanding disks found in MR's car, appears right rear door had been sanded after white coating had been applied earlier
-bench seat of car missing
-no KNOWN history of violence on MR's part (to date)
-TLM has a history of violence
-video of VS and TLM walking together
-video of MR's car in area of school on day of abduction
-no info to date of TLM knowing the Mt Forest area or driving backroads on her own
-TLM drew detailed map of location, couldn't find it by air or road
-no info released that MR assisted in recovering Tori
-MR was active on POF after crime and meeting women
-TLM was arrested within a few days
-testimony states that both are drug users
-testimony shows that both are liars

common sense would indicate that MR, to a certain extent, played an active role in terms of where Tori was eventually found. The fact that Tori was wearing only a t-shirt would also indicate a) she had an accident and her clothing was removed or b) her clothing was removed for some other "nefarious" purpose. I would think her clothing would have been left with her if A) was the case.
It appears MR went about his life as though nothing had happened. Did he believe he wouldn't be caught because TLM said she'd take the rap, or because he felt no one would believe a known with a lengthy record if she named him?

A few other things and points on some you've mentioned.....

-two water bottle caps found in the garbage bag with Victoria's remains. Those caps matched the brand of water found in MR's car and bedroom. TLM testified that he used water bottles to clean his genital area. I don't think they both cracked open a bottle of water to have a drink while disposing of the body. And if you do crack open a bottle to take a swig, you put the cap back on. If you're quickly using the water to wash off blood, it is feasible that you'd throw the cap to the ground so you wouldn't be holding it in the other hand.

-the same brand of hammer that was purchased at the HD was found in his home. It is an odd brand, not one of the usual name brands, probably not usually prominently on display and is cheaper in that category than the usual brands. TLM has said that he told her what to buy.

-missing car seat. The girlfriend who was with him up until April 1st says the seat was in the car. The neighbour who claims he saw MR take the seat out of the car prior to that (Mar 29) does seem to have memory issues. He didn't even remember telling LE about that while on the stand. He may have seen him remove the car seat after the crime but was incorrect on his date when asked about it some months later.

-missing back floor mats? TLM testified she shampooed some floor mats at the car wash. The ones in the front seat were winter type ones and didn't look like they'd been cleaned all season. There were none in the back seat but the carpet under the pile of mess was rather new and clean looking considering the shape of the rest of the car. Looks like there may have been some mats there at some point.

-missing carpet in trunk. When was that carpet removed and why? Where did they put the bags of evidence in the car before disposing of them?

MOO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I thought it was said she assaulted her mother twice, when was the third time?

It was only twice that we heard at the trial, I don't really know where this third time comes from, and alot of stuff in that post I've never heard about here on this board or at the trial so I don't even know why we are talking about it.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I'm picking up this thread 4 pages behind, but I have to answer this. Yes, ignorance of the law is no excuse. However, when someone is questioned, they also must be informed of their rights. Just think how all those women are now branded as POF users and Rafferty's dates. They went on the site anonymously, but now the justice system has exposed them because they agreed to testify. They should not have needed inside knowledge to be able to testify anonymously.

Well that's the way the law works. The judge has the last word on publication bans, it's entirely possible that they did apply to have their info banned but were refused by the judge. The justice system has not exposed them IMO. And it's not inside knowledge, the info is posted on the Government website.

 

[myzzy]

Just thinking outloud and curious how many of those who think Tori's death had nothing to with a a debt, if they would be swayed to think its a plausable defence ( may or may not have happened just " Now More Plausable" if it came out in court by a witness that it was a ( insert what ever type of (dogs/revenge/greed/ect) ) debt held by TLM towards either JS or her mum? and thats why it has not been brought up by asking directly if any of them knew the raffertys

Pure speculation and thinking outloud, Not a question per say just more curious in my own mind ...

 

[puppyraiser]

Just thinking outloud and curious how many of those who think Tori's death had nothing to with a a debt, if they would be swayed to think its a plausable defence ( may or may not have happened just " Now More Plausable" if it came out in court by a witness that it was a ( insert what ever type of (dogs/revenge/greed/ect) ) debt held by TLM towards either JS or her mum? and thats why it has not been brought up by asking directly if any of them knew the raffertys

Pure speculation and thinking outloud, Not a question per say just more curious in my own mind ...

IMO it was one of two reasons that Tori was abducted: "nefarious purpose" or a debt/grievance of some kind. A person doesn't wake up one day and decide to kidnap a child for no specific reason. Add to it the fact that Tori always walked home with her brother, except for that fateful day so IMO why would TLM be trolling the school area looking specifically for Tori on that particular day (no proof of this but one would have to think this way if you believe a debt/grievance theory) and why would MR's car be in the nursing home parking lot around the corner?? My gut feeling is that Tori just happened to be the first female child walking alone because she went back into the school and the other children had a few minutes head start or were in groups/with an adult.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

(RBBM)

Actually, I think it would have been stupid to not talk about Tori, seeing as how everyone else was. And this is what Derstine was trying to establish with his witness on Friday.

I think Derstine tried to explain why MTR was talking about TLM in a way that would make it look that way, but I don't think everyone was talking about Tori to the point that if someone was not talking about her it would be obvious they were involved somehow.

Intact, I think the way MTR discussed the abduction did stand out from what other people were saying. He didn't just talk about the abduction, he said that he had inside information about the abduction and TLM. I don't see that as an attempt to blend in and just look normal. He spoke about his connection to TLM and talked about assisting with the search.

 

[Salem]

It has been posted several times over the past two weeks ... including a scenario based on his participation and mea culpa. The judge will instruct the jury prior to their being sequestered.

Actually, I don't think there has been a link that says MR may be convicted of a lesser charge.

It would be helpful if you could provide one. Here, in the states - you can't convict of a lesser charge UNLESS the prosecution has put that charge before the jury. I know things may be different in Canada, but I don't remember ever reading anything about that.

TIA,

Salem

 

[nursebeeme]

IMO it was one of two reasons that Tori was abducted: "nefarious purpose" or a debt/grievance of some kind. A person doesn't wake up one day and decide to kidnap a child for no specific reason. Add to it the fact that Tori always walked home with her brother, except for that fateful day so why would TLM be trolling the school area looking specifically for Tori on that particular day and why would MR's car be in the nursing home parking lot around the corner??

I never heard that (bbm). I thought Tori was chosen randomly?:waitasec: (I could be wrong... I just don't recall that)

 

[puppyraiser]

I never heard that (bbm). I thought Tori was chosen randomly?:waitasec: (I could be wrong... I just don't recall that)

It has never been stated that she was looking specifically for Tori- I should have worded that differently. My thoughts were if people think the kidnapping was due to a debt then one would have to think TLM was trolling for Tori.

 

[~n/t~]

I never heard that (bbm). I thought Tori was chosen randomly?:waitasec: (I could be wrong... I just don't recall that)

This might help:

McClintic also denied suggestions that she knew Tori, whose old house was near McClintic's aunt's home and whose new house was blocks away from McClintic's. When McClintic approached Tori that day she says she talked about shih tzus, though she says she was unaware Tori had a shih tzu.

Tori's mother and her mother's boyfriend bought drugs from McClintic's mother, but she insisted she did not know them beyond a passing acquaintance. McClintic has said she grabbed Tori outside her Woodstock, Ont., elementary school because she was the only child who was alone.

bbm

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/22/michael-rafferty-trial-im_n_1373519.html

 

[Bravo]

I think Tori was picked at random. If we are to believe TLM's testimony that MR commented on Tori not being young enough it would support random. I cant see this being revenge for a drug debt. I thinks it's just Defense spin. It is my belief the abduction,rape and murder of an innocent child suited their own sick agenda's. Cant help but wonder if Rafferty's obsession following the crime was pure enjoyment on his part? His trophy. MOO