weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[maxfactor]

ya i wondered if he had marks on his lips from the murder and MTR explained them as cold sores JMO Maybe TS head butted him or something.JMO

That's a good point, I can see that scenario, if he had Tori on his lap with his feet outside the car( which I think is what TLM testified to) what if Tori did head butt him and that made him angry and that's when he threw her on the ground? That could explain how Tori's blood ended up on the door moulding with sperm. There could have been more blood but it got thrown out with the seat. If he had a bloody nose or cut lip that would explain why his blood was found with Tori's in the gym bag. I hope she did head butt him!! Real hard!!!:moo:

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Actually, I don't think there has been a link that says MR may be convicted of a lesser charge.

It would be helpful if you could provide one. Here, in the states - you can't convict of a lesser charge UNLESS the prosecution has put that charge before the jury. I know things may be different in Canada, but I don't remember ever reading anything about that.

TIA,

Salem

Here is an excerpt from Mark Kelley's 3.22.12 show where a defence attorney guest says that the jury "might" be able to consider lesser charges. I thought it was odd as I did not think that was something that could be done here in the US, but I've seen on this thread that that is possible here, so I don't know. I didn't highlight the "might" in my original post, but to me "might" could imply that the jury may not be able to do so.

I haven't seen anything about what was actually said on Mark Kelley's show so here ya go if anyone is interested.

Mark Kelley spoke with Vincent Clifford who has represented eighteen high profile defendants in the Ottawa area, including being apart of the team that represented Russell Williams. Here's how he sees things:

Derstine is dealing with two different versions of what happened:
1. TLM's version in May 2009: MTR beat and killed Tori
2. Current version: while MTR raped Tori, she is the one who killed Tori

Derstine's strategy is quite simple, he wants the jury to believe TLM's current version. And that while he may be guilty of an underlying charge, he did not murder Tori.

The first option is devastating to the client, while the second allows verdicts other than first degree murder to be considered. The jury might be able to consider manslaughter, or the underlying offenses of sexual assault and kidnapping, and they could even deliberate on an outright acquittal on the homicide charge.

Kelley asks if an acquittal is really possible, and Clifford says that anything is possible (don't we all know that )

There is potential that this strategy could backfire. But what Derstine's has to do is refer to TLM's journals, her letters, her conduct, poems, songs that she liked to convince them that she is capable of committing this homicide on her own, without MTR.

MK asks what the defence now wants from MTR. Clifford answers that probably only two people know the answer to that, MTR and Derstine. But based on his experiences he thinks it is important to remember that the Crown attorney bears the border of proof, of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that MTR killed Tori or was a party to her killing. The Crown does not have to show who swung the hammer, but if they want to convict MTR of the murder as a party they do have to provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that he had a guilty mind, that he intended to kill her.

This is not verbatim, but close to it.

 

[~n/t~]

That's a good point, I can see that scenario, if he had Tori on his lap with his feet outside the car( which I think is what TLM testified to) what if Tori did head butt him and that made him angry and that's when he threw her on the ground? That could explain how Tori's blood ended up on the door moulding with sperm. There could have been more blood but it got thrown out with the seat. If he had a bloody nose or cut lip that would explain why his blood was found with Tori's in the gym bag. I hope she did head butt him!! Real hard!!!:moo:

I believe in my heart Tori put up a struggle but how does a little chihuaha fight off 2 attacking pitbulls?

 

[Wondergirl]

Poor TLM. Necro made her write sick things, MR made her abduct Tori, some other kid made her nuke her dog. Who made her allegedly assault the other inmate in January? Who made her stab the person at the bus stop? Who made her throw the rock through the window at the OPP office? Who made her choke the man in Sudbury? Who made her punch that girl in the face (unprovoked) in 2006? What about all the other threats and assaults on other youths in custody? Who made her assault her mother, not once, but three different occasions? Oh yes, those last three were her mother's fault. One time she poked her, one time she made her lose a job, and one time she burned her with a cigarette. Who'd she do the credit card fraud for? Someone must have made her do that too.

I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy whatsoever for TLM. Nobody made her do any of those things. She made a conscious choice and she did them, all on her own.

JMO

Can you please post the links from MSM to back up what you are stating as fact here?

I don't remember reading all these things about TLM, which doesn't mean they aren't true or are not published in MSM.

Are any of them part of the publication ban? I would presume not.

 

[puppyraiser]

If MR is an innocent dupe in all of this, why was his car spotted near the school and then parked down the street away from the school?
TLM had to walk a fair distance alone with Tori. Could he have parked there thinking that if she made it that far without being caught/questioned by anyone then they would be in the clear?
He could see her walking down the street with a child and could easily have driven off, but he didn't. Why is that?
If TLM had said she was picking up a friend's child (not documented anywhere, only theorizing) then why park so far away? Common sense would be that if you have permission to get the kid, it would be perfectly acceptable to park in the pick-up zone or closer parking lot.
Where his car was parked is cause for me to think, believe, surmise he knew what TLM was going to do
MOO

 

[~n/t~]

Here is an excerpt from Mark Kelley's 3.22.12 show where a defence attorney guest says that the jury "might" be able to consider lesser charges. I thought it was odd as I did not think that was something that could be done here in the US, but I've seen on this thread that that is possible here, so I don't know. I didn't highlight the "might" in my original post, but to me "might" could imply that the jury may not be able to do so.

It sounds like he's not sure either. He included the word "might". I'd like a direct link specifically confirming that the lesser charges apply in this case. Not directed at you daisy but anyone who has the specifics to this trial.

A defense attorney's opinion who is not involved in this case is just that. An opinion. It's like the TH's we see on shows like NG or JVM. They can offer opinions but until they back it up with facts, well one can either take their word for it or dismiss it.

I'd like to see a direct quote from the Judge.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

That's a good point, I can see that scenario, if he had Tori on his lap with his feet outside the car( which I think is what TLM testified to) what if Tori did head butt him and that made him angry and that's when he threw her on the ground? That could explain how Tori's blood ended up on the door moulding with sperm. There could have been more blood but it got thrown out with the seat. If he had a bloody nose or cut lip that would explain why his blood was found with Tori's in the gym bag. I hope she did head butt him!! Real hard!!!:moo:

Hmmmm, Max, if he had a bloody nose or cut lip wouldn't someone have noticed this afterwards. Also, I don't know if Tori, an 8 year old child would think of headbutting someone even if she is a feisty little girl, she was still in a horrifying situation which most adult would have a hard time dealing with, never mind a child. She was probably just too terrified and in pain

However, I guess it could have happened by accident if she was unconscious by that time. :moo:

 

[daisy.faithfull]

It sounds like he's not sure either. He included the word "might". I'd like a direct link specifically confirming that the lesser charges apply in this case. Not directed at you daisy but anyone who has the specifics to this trial.

A defense attorney's opinion who is not involved in this case is just that. An opinion. It's like the TH's we see on shows like NG or JVM. They can offer opinions but until they back it up with facts, well one can either take their word for it or dismiss it.

I'd like to see a direct quote from the Judge.

That's cool, I was just posting up what I had seen that was related to the issue.

 

[~n/t~]

That's cool, I was just posting up what I had seen that was related to the issue.

Oh and I appreciate it. Now we know it's not FACT but an opinion by a defense attorney who is not involved in this case/trial.

 

[Oldsoul2]

(RSBM)

This is an oft-repeated refrain. Do you have a link to show that MTR didn't tell LE what he did with his car seat? The only thing I've ever seen is that LE couldn't find it. There is a big difference there. He may very well have told LE right after his arrest what he did with that seat.






JMO

Really??? So basically the prosecution brought in all those witnesses to testify that they saw his back seat in the garbage because MR was kind enough to tell them where he put it? and LE, knowing that backseat is one of the most important pieces of evidence as to what happened to an 8 year, already knew where the seat was but simply couldn't find it so they just opted to take 600 photos of the car to frame him? Is that your theory?

 

[~n/t~]

Hmmmm, Max, if he had a bloody nose or cut lip wouldn't someone have noticed this afterwards. Also, I don't know if Tori, an 8 year old child would think of headbutting someone even if she is a feisty little girl, she was still in a horrifying situation which most adult would have a hard time dealing with, never mind a child. She was probably just too terrified and in pain

However, I guess it could have happened by accident if she was unconscious by that time. :moo:

His mom?

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Really??? So basically the prosecution brought in all those witnesses to testify that they saw his back seat in the garbage because MR was kind enough to tell them where he put it? and LE, knowing that backseat is one of the most important pieces of evidence as to what happened to an 8 year, already knew where the seat was but simply couldn't find it so they just opted to take 600 photos of the car to frame him? Is that your theory?

Also, why the heck would they ask the public for help finding it! That tells me no one told them about the back seat. The cops noticed themselves it was missing when they arrested him.

 

[dilbert]

Actually, I don't think there has been a link that says MR may be convicted of a lesser charge.

It would be helpful if you could provide one. Here, in the states - you can't convict of a lesser charge UNLESS the prosecution has put that charge before the jury. I know things may be different in Canada, but I don't remember ever reading anything about that.

TIA,

Salem

I hope it's ok for me to answer this so it doesn't get lost by the time Cha gets online again. I posted this last night and twice before that in the previous weeks.

If you watch this video you will see Russell Williams' former defence attorney, Vincent Clifford, discuss the defence strategy for MR and goes on to state that the jury can find MR guilty of a lesser charge. It begins at approx. the 7:05 mark.

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/TV_Shows/Connect_with_Mark_Kelley/1305591601/ID=2213971998

 

[dilbert]

Here is an excerpt from Mark Kelley's 3.22.12 show where a defence attorney guest says that the jury "might" be able to consider lesser charges. I thought it was odd as I did not think that was something that could be done here in the US, but I've seen on this thread that that is possible here, so I don't know. I didn't highlight the "might" in my original post, but to me "might" could imply that the jury may not be able to do so.

I think the "may", "perhaps" or "might" refers to which story the jury believes, if they believe TLM was telling the truth when she stated she killed Tori, then the jury MAY find MR guilty of a lesser charge than first degree. You'll also notice he said; "anything is possible in a crimminal trial".

MOO

 

[~n/t~]

I hope it's ok for me to answer this so it doesn't get lost by the time Cha gets online again. I posted this last night and twice before that in the previous weeks.

If you watch this video you will see Russell Williams' former defence attorney, Vincent Clifford, discuss the defence strategy for MR and goes on to state that the jury can find MR guilty of a lesser charge. It begins at approx. the 7:05 mark.

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/TV_Shows/Connect_with_Mark_Kelley/1305591601/ID=2213971998

"PERHAPS" "POTENTIALLY" - He is speculating.

Please provide a direct quote from Judge Heeney stating that this jury has the option to go for a lesser charge. TIA

 

[dilbert]

"PERHAPS" "POTENTIALLY" - He is speculating.

Please provide a direct quote from Judge Heeney stating that this jury has the option to go for a lesser charge. TIA

Who said the quote came from Judge Heeney? Do you have a link? TIA

 

[nursebeeme]

Who said the quote came from Judge Heeney? Do you have a link? TIA

I believe she was asking you for a link from the judge vs from a talking head.

I don't believe we will find this out until instruction is read to the jury anyhow. It is one of those things that we will have to wait to find out :moo: most likely

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I think the "may", "perhaps" or "might" refers to which story the jury believes, if they believe TLM was telling the truth when she stated she killed Tori, then the jury MAY find MR guilty of a lesser charge than first degree. You'll also notice he said; "anything is possible in a crimminal trial".

MOO

I would agree with you if he had just said that the jury might consider that. But it said that they might be able to consider that.

The "be able" part implies to me that they might not have the option to consider other charges, as in the judge might not give them that option so they are unable to consider it.

 

[dilbert]

I believe she was asking you for a link from the judge vs from a talking head.

I don't believe we will find this out until instruction is read to the jury anyhow. It is one of those things that we will have to wait to find out :moo: most likely

Exactly. Thank you! No one AFAIK ever said this information came from Judge Heeney, whenever it was brought up, the link to that Mark Kelley video was posted with it. I thought it was obvious that is where the information came from and not from Judge Heeney.

MOO

 

[~n/t~]

Who said the quote came from Judge Heeney? Do you have a link? TIA

Your link is not backed up with the statements you or Chacha stated as FACT that the jury can go for a lesser charge. They are speculations by a defense attorney who is not involved in this case/trial. I'm asking you to provide me with a link by anyone involved in this trial - CROWN, DEFENSE OR JUDGE HEENEY that the jury in the Michael Rafferty murder trial has the option to vote for a lesser charge.

Like I said last night, I have not seen it anywhere from anyone directly involved in THIS trial.

TIA