Welcome to The Official Websleuths Investigative Book Club !

[tricia]

RSBM

I, personally,, have a very hard time understanding how anyone can NOT know right from wrong in some situations, though. How can one NOT know killing someone is wrong? They were exposed to normal society, it's not like they lived in a "killing is just fine" bubble (that I could understand better).

But I have no frame of reference. I can't have you so I'll kill you? You made me feel bad so I'll kill you? I might get closer to having a concept if it was "torture you" instead of "kill you", and maybe that was the actual goal. To inflict pain, and death was just a by product of that goal.

That could be. This is what drives me crazy is we will never really know WHY. No matter what the girls say how could we ever believe them?

Hi all. A new member of WebSleuths and the book club here

WECOME. SO GLAD YOU MADE IT.

 

[watergirl62]

I just ordered my book so hopefully I can catch up before the second meeting.

I'm excited! The only true crime book I've ever read is Helter Skelter.

 

[NeilC]

There’s something to be said about the human brain not being fully developed until 25 years of age. I’m not excusing the behavior, but there’s no thought of consequences…also the girls involved in the crime were all abused in some way. Again, not an excuse but some of them lived in such demented environments, how can they know right from wrong? I find the back stories give some insight into how things can get so crazy.

Looking forward to the zoom! I don’t share much about my true crime interests with people I know…they aren’t as passionate about it as us folks… is passionate the right word? I just always wonder, ‘why’? How did it get to this point?

Exactly right, Jo_sews, the girl’s backstories begin to explain so much of this, especially Melinda and Laurie. Those girls had horrible upbringings. I’ve worked in the juvenile justice and adult corrections systems and so much can be understood by looking at how people are raised. I think it was a psychotherapist who did an assessment on Melinda and testified that she functioned emotionally on the level of a 3 or 4 year old. I think this book does give us some good information about the girl’s backgrounds and just how awful their parents were.

I’m looking forward to the zoom, too!

 

[NeilC]

I finished the book yesterday. I’m a fast reader and tend to have a nonfiction and fiction book going at the same time. I really “enjoyed” this one. Feels weird to say I liked it when the event was just so horrendous and learning about the backgrounds of the girls made me so sad.

Melinda really didn’t have much of a chance given the level of abuse in her household and a mother who ignored it. I know that many people have survived this (and worse) and have not gone on to torture and murder an innocent girl. But imho, it explains a lot. It really was a failure of Child Protective Services, too. I believe they were called to Melinda’s home and never followed up.

Laurie’s background is awful, too, and it seems that she needed attention from a healthy adult who could have recognized that she has some serious psychological issues. It sounds like Laurie was close to her grandma and when she passed, Laurie’s life really took a dark turn.

I have one critique about the format, but it’s probably just personal preference. Chapters are dedicated to each girl and their respective stories are told so we go through basically the same information on the torture and murder over and over. I would like to ask the author why she did it this way and I’m sure she has good reasons. It was hard for me to tell the nuances in the stories and (admittedly) I found it difficult to keep hearing the same thing. I think a timeline of what we know happened may have been enough. It seemed to me that each girl was telling the story to minimize their own responsibility and I’m not sure we really know what actually happened or who did what that night. Again, I really liked the book and it’s a story that needs to be told.

I appreciated the Epilogue and how the author highlights how the community was questioning how this happened and what they may have learned from this. The school system, the child welfare system, parents, friends and neighbors all failed Shanda.

 

[Jo_sews]

Exactly right, Jo_sews, the girl’s backstories begin to explain so much of this, especially Melinda and Laurie. Those girls had horrible upbringings. I’ve worked in the juvenile justice and adult corrections systems and so much can be understood by looking at how people are raised. I think it was a psychotherapist who did an assessment on Melinda and testified that she functioned emotionally on the level of a 3 or 4 year old. I think this book does give us some good information about the girl’s backgrounds and just how awful their parents were.

I’m looking forward to the zoom, too!

I worked for a while in a mental institution helping to train the patients to work in a coffee shop, to gain some work experience. The range of functionality was diverse, some of the patients seemed totally zoned out (probably heavy meds) and I wondered, ‘how did these people get this way.’ And then their parents came to visit. Then I got it. And what really amazed me was the therapists, many of them really needed therapy!

 

[Jo_sews]

This is what we need to ask Aphrodite Jones when we have her on

I looked it up, they are all free now.

 

[PeachesVonTT]

I worked for a while in a mental institution helping to train the patients to work in a coffee shop, to gain some work experience. The range of functionality was diverse, some of the patients seemed totally zoned out (probably heavy meds) and I wondered, ‘how did these people get this way.’ And then their parents came to visit. Then I got it. And what really amazed me was the therapists, many of them really needed therapy!

I worked in a psychiatric hospital for ten years, I completely understand!

 

[BeadstringingGenie]

Indiana death certificates are available on Ancestry. So out of a morbid sense of curiosity I looked up Shanda's. Cause of death was smoke inhalation & perimortem cutaneous burn. Also noted was 50% total body area 3rd degree burn & blood carbon monoxide saturation 26%. There was an autopsy performed but death certificate states the results were not available prior to completion of cause of death. Somehow that was more chilling to me than reading the book.

 

[BeadstringingGenie]

Indiana court cases are available on mycase.in.gov, so I looked up some of the participants. There isn't a lot of detail, mostly just charges. The Larry Loveless case from 1/11/1993 does have a bit of detail. Newspapers.com of course has quite a few articles about the case. This is low-hanging fruit, and I'm sure Aphrodite Jones will have a lot to tell us about her deep dive research.
When reading the book became too much for me and I had to put it down for a time, these are the things I resorted to. My heart goes out to Melinda for what she suffered growing up. It may be the reason she acted out the way she did but it in no way excuses her behavior.

 

[BirdBrain55]

Just received my book, will get started tonight !

 

[BirdBrain55]

This is what we need to ask Aphrodite Jones when we have her on

I finished the book yesterday. I’m a fast reader and tend to have a nonfiction and fiction book going at the same time. I really “enjoyed” this one. Feels weird to say I liked it when the event was just so horrendous and learning about the backgrounds of the girls made me so sad.

Melinda really didn’t have much of a chance given the level of abuse in her household and a mother who ignored it. I know that many people have survived this (and worse) and have not gone on to torture and murder an innocent girl. But imho, it explains a lot. It really was a failure of Child Protective Services, too. I believe they were called to Melinda’s home and never followed up.

Laurie’s background is awful, too, and it seems that she needed attention from a healthy adult who could have recognized that she has some serious psychological issues. It sounds like Laurie was close to her grandma and when she passed, Laurie’s life really took a dark turn.

I have one critique about the format, but it’s probably just personal preference. Chapters are dedicated to each girl and their respective stories are told so we go through basically the same information on the torture and murder over and over. I would like to ask the author why she did it this way and I’m sure she has good reasons. It was hard for me to tell the nuances in the stories and (admittedly) I found it difficult to keep hearing the same thing. I think a timeline of what we know happened may have been enough. It seemed to me that each girl was telling the story to minimize their own responsibility and I’m not sure we really know what actually happened or who did what that night. Again, I really liked the book and it’s a story that needs to be told.

I appreciated the Epilogue and how the author highlights how the community was questioning how this happened and what they may have learned from this. The school system, the child welfare system, parents, friends and neighbors all failed Shanda.

Enjoyed your comments on the book. Just received mine, excited to start it tonight !

 

[Insightful1]

This is what we need to ask Aphrodite Jones when we have her on

I have current pictures of each girl and an update about their present life. I’m saving it to share with everyone at the end.

 

[Insightful1]

I finished the book yesterday. I’m a fast reader and tend to have a nonfiction and fiction book going at the same time. I really “enjoyed” this one. Feels weird to say I liked it when the event was just so horrendous and learning about the backgrounds of the girls made me so sad.

Melinda really didn’t have much of a chance given the level of abuse in her household and a mother who ignored it. I know that many people have survived this (and worse) and have not gone on to torture and murder an innocent girl. But imho, it explains a lot. It really was a failure of Child Protective Services, too. I believe they were called to Melinda’s home and never followed up.

Laurie’s background is awful, too, and it seems that she needed attention from a healthy adult who could have recognized that she has some serious psychological issues. It sounds like Laurie was close to her grandma and when she passed, Laurie’s life really took a dark turn.

I have one critique about the format, but it’s probably just personal preference. Chapters are dedicated to each girl and their respective stories are told so we go through basically the same information on the torture and murder over and over. I would like to ask the author why she did it this way and I’m sure she has good reasons. It was hard for me to tell the nuances in the stories and (admittedly) I found it difficult to keep hearing the same thing. I think a timeline of what we know happened may have been enough. It seemed to me that each girl was telling the story to minimize their own responsibility and I’m not sure we really know what actually happened or who did what that night. Again, I really liked the book and it’s a story that needs to be told.

I appreciated the Epilogue and how the author highlights how the community was questioning how this happened and what they may have learned from this. The school system, the child welfare system, parents, friends and neighbors all failed Shanda.

Neil, this is amazing. This is exactly how I felt when I first read the book. This is exactly what I was hoping people would get from reading about this case and others to come. First, we need to know this sort of horror exists. Secondly how and why? Thirdly what can we do as individuals to recognize, prevent or help in some way for this not to happen again. Then the most important aspect to me is Shanda. I do not want anyone to forget her. To forget what was ripped away from her and her family. Shanda’s entire future was ripped away. By whom ? Children, and for what ? What a waste of lives and complete devastation to so many families. Thank you for sharing and for reading with us.

 

[Insightful1]

I’m hope everyone is enjoying our journey of reading and learning together. The content is tough but educating ourselves about crimes teach us how we can help others in some way. Also, it can teach us behaviors, people and activities to protect ourselves from

 

[PeachesVonTT]

I only read the first 60 pages so far...
I've got to say, as much as I despise Larry, Margie was not any better. My goodness, so many times she just ignored the behavior and hid at work. It's tragic. I think in that situation with all the anger from Melina towards Larry, she might have just as much or more resentment towards Margie. In my opinion, I think having my mother look away would hurt more.

 

[Baba O'Riley]

I have one critique about the format, but it’s probably just personal preference. Chapters are dedicated to each girl and their respective stories are told so we go through basically the same information on the torture and murder over and over.

And over and over and over all through the book. I skipped over the gory details after a while. I know it is written as a more-or-less cut-and-dry police procedural, but, as you say, some more nuance would have improved the book. That being said, I am glad I read the book. I can't say I really "enjoyed" it. I am extremely shocked by the depravity of these young girls. My sleep has been disturbed by the horror of it all, so I finished it quickly so that I can get it out of my system. And to think that that this happened at a time when there was no social media, they didn't use guns in the murder , and there doesn't seem there were drugs involved to any great degree when they were committing the crimes, so those elements that are usually blamed today for teen violence weren't factors. They were just damaged, evil kids.

 

[justice4joe]

Melinda’s family was a nightmare! Her father was a total degenerate, her mother didn’t protect her or her sisters from him IMO.

 

[NeilC]

I only read the first 60 pages so far...
I've got to say, as much as I despise Larry, Margie was not any better. My goodness, so many times she just ignored the behavior and hid at work. It's tragic. I think in that situation with all the anger from Melina towards Larry, she might have just as much or more resentment towards Margie. In my opinion, I think having my mother look away would hurt more.

Yeah, Margie certainly has a story to tell, too. She had to know that Larry was abusing all of her daughters and their friends and she did nothing, as far as we know, to stop it. I also see her as a victim and unable to get out from under Larry’s coercive control. But she is definitely not blameless. Such a messed up family dynamic!

 

[mickey2942]

I am reading this book, and put myself back as a teen. I wouldn't have had anything to do with someone who wanted to kill someone. It is chilling to read how nonchalant these girls involved were.

 

[Insightful1]

I am reading this book, and put myself back as a teen. I wouldn't have had anything to do with someone who wanted to kill someone. It is chilling to read how nonchalant these girls involved were.

It truly is !