Were Caylee's Remains Moved?

[LambChop]

Wasn't there something in the reports about an indention in the backyard? As if someone had started digging and then changed their mind?

Someone had dug a hole near the foundation of the home in the backyard but I think they hit some footing. The A's claimed later they were moving a bush but investigators were looking at it with interest. jmo

 

[LancelotLink]

Someone had dug a hole near the foundation of the home in the backyard but I think they hit some footing. The A's claimed later they were moving a bush but investigators were looking at it with interest. jmo

That is very interesting. TY! I'll check for a thread and see if there are diagrams or something. That is very interesting.

 

[flipflop53]

I can't believe that Casey would risk driving around with Caylee in the trunk, but think that she hid her somewhere for 2 days (whatever the body farm said the decomp age was in the trunk), then moved the bag over to the site. Casey probably didn't realize there would be leakage, and that messed up her car jacking/kidnap plan. I don't think the A.'s covered anything up unless there was something about the flurry of calls made to the both of them on the afternoon Caylee died. George may have covered up the odor, because he should have smelled it when he caught Casey with the gas cans. The body farm has proven that the decomp odor was from a person dead about 2.5 days, right?

Regarding Casey hiding Caylee's body for 2 days, Amy had a storage unit. Could Casey have had access to it?

 

[krisskross]

Yes, KrissKross, George stated he could smell the smell within 3 ft of the car if I remember correctly.
Now what I also find interesting is when Cindy was doing her spewing in front of the house about the tow yard, and maybe someone placed a dead body in the car while at the tow yard. ( ohhh thats a bad statement IMO).
She says, the tow guy didn't smell anything until a week later after picking up the car. So this to me points me in the direction that Caylee may have been in that car, died there, started to decompose, purged, she then was removed, placed in the yard, then during the week of June 24th she was placed back into the car and disposed on June 27th. just before the car was. Just as you stated, the purging would be enough to generate more flies, and growth of maggots. ( Alone). The smell would eventually permiate that car through time with just the purging. June 25th the text msg to Amy about the smell. The 27th The smell has been discovered and taken care of.

Thank you dustyrose, you have obviously put alot of thought into this.

My problem is........If Caylee died June 16th and was not placed in the woods till around June 27th, she would have been in a very advanced stage of decomposition. We're talking 10 days here. With respect dusty that doesn't jive with the conclusions of at least 5 State expert witnesses, Dr Garavalglia, Dr Haskill, Dr Vass, Dr Hall or Dr Schultz. Dr Schultz imo is going to be very problematic for the defense as it now appears that neither his defense counterpart, Dr Cathy Reichs, nor crime scene analyst (Jack of all forensic trades), Henry Lee could find any fault with either of his two very detailed reports. Should be noted that Dr Schultz spent every day at the dump site and acted as a consultant to OCSD.

In Dr Schultz's conclusion/opinion, he states:

"The overall pattern of skeletal dispersal is consistent with the body of Caylee Anthony being dumped into the woods at the scene located on Suburban Drive during the early stages of decay, before significant disarticulation of anatomical units occurred."

He goes on to say (paraphrasing) that Caylee's remains were "consistent with" being in those woods for multiple months and that a time of "approximately 6 months would not be inconsistent with the taphonomy of the skeleton".
Bold mine.

So including Dr Garavaglia, it would seem we have at least five State experts from different disciplines who generally agree Caylee was dumped in those woods at relatively early stage decomposition.

From the defense, so far, we have Dr Boch who is questioning Dr Hall's methodology but stops short of offering her own PMI .:waitasec:

I concede, we have yet to hear from the other defense experts, but its not imo looking too good for the defense.

Whilst I believe Casey Anthony attempted to bury Caylee in the back yard. (shovel incident) right now I favour the dog alerts coming from the tainted gas cans. That's not to say Caylee was not temporarily placed in the back yard, but imo only for a very short time and probably already triple bagged and significantly still in relatively early stage decomp.....hence only half a leg of a blow fly was ever found.

Re Cindy's statements abut the tow yard, I think we can totally dismiss them. IIRC she was remunstrating with reporters when she blurted out the stuff about the tow yard. :floorlaugh:

The moving 9 times seems to stem from George, who according to his State deposition was at some point surveilling Riccardo Morales and alluding that Caylee might be in Puerto Rico. :floorlaugh:

 

[Sparky]

That is very interesting. TY! I'll check for a thread and see if there are diagrams or something. That is very interesting.

Under the window in the back of the house by the screen room. CA stated there was a Hibiscus Bush planted there. They supposedly moved it next to the shed in the backyard so they could place the rectangular pool box that was sitting beside the round above ground pool. She also mentioned they were afraid Caylee would climb on top of the box and fall in the pool. This is why they were gonna move it.

I always thought it odd the pool box was sitting there. Would have made more sense to place it against a flat wall and not a round pool.

Also, when did they move the bush and why was the box still sitting by the pool?

I believe this was in a interview with Greta and they were out walking around the backyard.

 

[Just Jayla]

Wasn't there something in the reports about an indention in the backyard? As if someone had started digging and then changed their mind?

I am still not completely sold that KC was going to dig with the shovel-It was clean when she gave it back to BB (though she could have rinsed it in the pool...)-
I believe she was trying to pry GA's shed open and get some gas....
Perhaps she backed her car into the garage so she could pull Caylee's remains out to get to the lugwrench/tire iron to maybe use that to pry the shed. While she was taking Caylee's body out, she pulled down the laundry bag from the shelf to hide it in the event someone walked in on her, or to prevent any decomp fluid from getting on the garage floor.
Did the dogs ever hit near GA's shed, indicating KC could have brought the laundry bag/Caylee back to the shed with her rather than leaving her unattended in the garage?
Tire iron wouldn't work, not narrow enough to get into the door crack and KC is not strong enough to use it to break the padlock. So she borrowed something with a thin edge, a shovel.
I wonder if there are any dents on GA's shed doors, chipped paint, scratched metal, etc.
Or, she could have been trying to bury Caylee, I would think you would find more of her DNA on it than they did, though-but who knows...while KC is not very smart in my eyes, I would hope she knew better than to ask her neighbor to borrow a shovel and then bury Caylee in a backyard her parents knew like the backs of their hands...

 

[countzero]

There are photos somewhere here of the side of the house where the spigot/hose is and where the ground was disturbed. Was it under Caylee's window or ICAs?? Also there were discussions about it, but I haven't a clue where these discussions would be or titled under.

 

[LCoastMom]

I am still not completely sold that KC was going to dig with the shovel-It was clean when she gave it back to BB (though she could have rinsed it in the pool...)-
I believe she was trying to pry GA's shed open and get some gas....
Perhaps she backed her car into the garage so she could pull Caylee's remains out to get to the lugwrench/tire iron to maybe use that to pry the shed. While she was taking Caylee's body out, she pulled down the laundry bag from the shelf to hide it in the event someone walked in on her, or to prevent any decomp fluid from getting on the garage floor.
Did the dogs ever hit near GA's shed, indicating KC could have brought the laundry bag/Caylee back to the shed with her rather than leaving her unattended in the garage?
Tire iron wouldn't work, not narrow enough to get into the door crack and KC is not strong enough to use it to break the padlock. So she borrowed something with a thin edge, a shovel.
I wonder if there are any dents on GA's shed doors, chipped paint, scratched metal, etc.
Or, she could have been trying to bury Caylee, I would think you would find more of her DNA on it than they did, though-but who knows...while KC is not very smart in my eyes, I would hope she knew better than to ask her neighbor to borrow a shovel and then bury Caylee in a backyard her parents knew like the backs of their hands...

BBM - Had she used the shovel to pry open the lock I would think there would have been trace on the shovel from the shed, also think about using a large shovel - that would have been awkward at best - a hand spade, screwdriver, hammer or other small tool makes more sense (being that it was something she asked to borrow vs something she found laying around).

G&C also searched the back yard - even moving some pavers from the playhouse area IIRC, before LE was back there. For some reason they believed ICA left her back there too.

I'm still thinking the act was committed at the A home, ICA may have placed Caylee in the back yard while she attempted to dig a grave there - or the dogs may have alerted because the gas cans were in the back of the car with the remains (or what spilled out of the bag), then used in the back yard.

Weren't the 2.6 days spent in an "anaerobic" environment? Meaning an area low in oxygen, like the trunk of a car (in hot, humid Orlando - in June) rather than in the playhouse?

Re the time line of Caylee's death, (someone else brought this up) when she was placed in the trunk & when she was possibly moved, I remember reading somewhere that young children (meaning small bodies) don't always develop rigor and 2.6 days, in hot, humid weather means it only took those 2.6 days for Caylee (to borrow from Det Yuri) to no longer be the way ICA remembered. Not skeletonized by a long shot, but well into early decomposition. ICA placed her duct taped baby into the trunk of her car on June 16 and 2.6 days later she dumped her around the block from home - in a trash filled lot. Then began the next phase of her "beautiful life".

May ICA remember well what she found in the back of her car on Thursday afternoon - may she see this image in her nightmares - every time she hears Caylee's name, may she flash back to what she did to that child and may she never have a night's sleep without the vision of precious Caylee haunting her. She can cry "Make it stop" all she wants. I hope she spends the rest of her life in ugly, squalid, prison - it's more than she deserves, but then again - so is death.

 

[countzero]

Bringing this over from the ‘use of the shovel’ thread as it seems more appropriate to the backyard generically vs. specific to the shovel.

The pic of the area between the house and fence leading up to the shed (shown below) was taken by LE Wednesday, 7/16/08 10:13:55PM a few hours after Casey’s arrest @ 4:33PM, and just ~15mins after LE took the pic of the white trash bag recovered from the dumpster @ the impound lot.
(Source of time stamp: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Casey's Photobucket - #2)

FWIW…the K9 search of the Pontiac happened @ 4:42PM on Thursday, 7/17/08 which was followed up by the K9 search of the Anthony backyard @ 7PM on Thursday, 7/17/08.

The question is why would LE take THIS pic 7/16 after the pic of the white trash bag being recovered from the dumpster...and would the reason they took this pic maybe clue us into something. IIRC, Yuri is the one that did the dumpster diving for the white trash bag, so…considering that the time between the pic timestamps allows nothing more than travel from the impound lot to G&C’s house it seems a reasonable assumption that Yuri was the one that snapped this picture.

IMHO the reason LE took this picture is to show that on Thursday, 7/16 @ 10:13PM it was evident that someone had recently moved the hose reel. IMHO, this picture SHOWS that because the pattern of the leaves near the faucet in the pic betray that the hose reel box HAD been sitting next to the faucet and kept those colored leaves from being evenly scattered on the ground in that area - HENCE the alignment of the leaves Anyone that has ever seen leaves blown by the wind in an alley until they start piling up by a barrier can relate to this effect. In addition, the washout of mulch adjacent to this area shows where water from the faucet and/or coiled up hose might typically occur when in its 'normal' place.

Sooooo….WHY would you move the hose reel???? Perhaps because you needed the hose to extend further than it could from its ‘normal’ location! :shocked2: And/or you needed to use the hose from a different faucet...say....the one off the back porch!! That one would enable you to reach an area further away from the house...say...the area of mulch back by the back patio/picnic table, etc. where the K9 alerts were in what might be the low-points where wash water would collect/puddle.

IF a faucet attachment near the back porch was taken by LE (as suggested by another poster)...perhaps it was for prints, from being noticeably wet/muddy from recent use...or wishful thinking...from a decomp alert. FWIW, a "faucet attachment" to me would describe what I call a male quick-connect fitting that is typically screwed onto the threaded part of the faucet when one of these hose reels is used. It has an o-ring that allows a hose (with a matching female fitting) to be quickly & conveniently attached & unattached from the faucet. The attachment typically stays on the faucet where the hose is most often used. IF this type of attachment was found on the back porch faucet instead of on the faucet @ the side of the house where the leaves, betray the hose reel had been sitting...even without prints, mud/moisture, or decomp on it...it would strongly support that the hose reel had been very recently moved & used @ the back porch faucet and the user (perhaps in a rush ) forgot to move it back when they took the hose reel back to the corner of the house. :thumb:

It is interesting to note...that perhaps after Yuri recovered the white trash bag...yet before the K9's alerted on the backyard...that Yuri appears to have made this observation about the hose reel move. :thumb:

Another - entirely unrelated possibility - is that the stolen-gas-can report came to light ~7/16 and Yuri decided to take a picture of the shed from which the cans were reported stolen during a visit. Hmmm....naaaaaah :shakehead.

Perhaps an altogether different explanation for the leaf pattern is that something else entirely had been located next to the faucet up against the house and was 'missing'. :waitasec:

Ahhhh, found one of the posts I was thinking of. Of course our most illustrious Bond wrote it long ago. But it stuck in the wee fibers of me brain. The photo is marked to illustrate theories put here. And it's amazing that back in Sept 09 these theories still hold the truth while JB's sink further into the abyss.

Thanks BJB for an excellent summary.

 

[dustyrose46]

lambchop, may I add this ?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka5zRcngTFc[/ame]

 

[dustyrose46]

That greta video is the full 8minutes.

 

[dustyrose46]

countzero LOL yee haw ! excellent !

 

[dustyrose46]

there again, listen to cindy speak for Casey in that video. She builds her own story, and everyone better go by it, cuz unlike caylee in her photo when she was born....Cindy has her eye on you, and you better behave yourself.

 

[dustyrose46]

albatross has good theory and she is not a dumb woman. take a listen.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmk9a1a0kIc[/ame]

 

[dustyrose46]

A plea deal would spill the beans on everything. If casey goes down, so does the house. This woman I think if I remember right was an investigator many years ago, and is retired.

 

[dustyrose46]

jayla,
remember it was said by tim miller I think while casey was in the house on confinement that was over heard, she used the shovel to take the ladder out of the pool. Not for digging bamboo root. Allegedly caseys own words.
so if that is so, then when casey had the shovel the pool ladder was in the pool and either didnt get it out, or cindy was lying, and casey heard the lie the ladder was on the pool blah blah blah. It never ends with these two. Im fried for the day...God speed everyone.

 

[katydid23]

Lamb, like you, I think the shovel plays a part in Casey's effort in what to do with her child's dead body. I think it's obvious, Casey didn't have an advance plan on how to dispose of a dead body. But as others have pointed out, Casey never had an advance plan for most things she did. She lived in the moment.
If Caylee's death was an accident, perhaps and overdose, how much panic was Casey feeling? I suspect if she was in a panic, she wouldn't be able to formulate a perfect plan to hide a body.
So was the borrowed shovel initially to be used to dig a grave in the backyard, or did Casey see it as a tool to pick up a dead body?
With panic and the lack of being able to form a plan, I too can see where Casey would think only so far as what had worked before when she was trying to get rid of something dead, take it to the woods as she did with a pet.
We are not discussing someone with a great deal of cunning and intelligence when it comes to hiding the death, or the body. I think she would take the easy way out for herself mainly because she isn't a master mind when it comes to crimes.
Lately, however, as I read here, I continue to switch back and forth as to how much of a role did her father, George have in disposing of the body. Part of me says if he was involved, Caylee's body would have been taken further away from the home. But then I think, George might have a better plan but he would be too lazy to do anything that would take more of his time.
In all, just trying to figure out what was done makes me weep more for a little girl who did not deserve to leave this world.
jmo

IF George moved the body then he was trying to 'frame' Casey. Anyone who would put the poor baby in the same place that Casey buried her dead pets would be doing so to make Casey look guilty. And the only people besides Casey who would know where she dumped her pets would be close family or childhood friends.
Casey was the one who buried that child.

 

[txsvicki]

I have always believed that Caylee was chloroformed/taped and died in the trunk, that it was some plot to try and claim a carjacking/kidnapping, but Casey messed up with that. Maybe because she didn't want to give up her way to get around or going over to Tony's. I've also always thought the spot where the bush was may have been where Caylee was temporarily placed with the pool box on top. The ground there should have been very soft where there was a previous root ball just about the right size. Maybe Casey only thought of putting her in the yard, but decided against it, and went back to the trunk before the final site in the wooded area. One thing is for certain though, and it's that Caylee was in that trunk deceased, there was chloroform, decomp, a death band hair, and Casey knew full well that the vehicle smelled of something deceased.

 

[Nore]

IF George moved the body then he was trying to 'frame' Casey. Anyone who would put the poor baby in the same place that Casey buried her dead pets would be doing so to make Casey look guilty. And the only people besides Casey who would know where she dumped her pets would be close family or childhood friends.
Casey was the one who buried that child.

--------------------
Hi,all of your ideas are why I think kc
placed Caylee herself.She no doubt figured it was secluded
from the public plus as you said it was the only spot kc
could think of.When younger the girls probably thought of
it as their hideaway.TM. said Caylee may have been in a bit farther
and moved up from flooding rains,there are winds with these rains which would make it more probable. TM.said this in the first tv.interview with police
at the scene when the little one was found.They were holding umbrellas.
I figured she did put her in farther.IMO :seeya:

 

[Nore]

--------------------
Hi,all of your ideas are why I think kc
placed Caylee herself.She no doubt figured it was secluded
from the public plus as you said it was the only spot kc
could think of.When younger the girls probably thought of
it as their hideaway.TM. said Caylee may have been in a bit farther
and moved up from flooding rains,there are winds with these rains which would make it more probable. TM.said this in the first tv.interview with police
at the scene when the little one was found.They were holding umbrellas.
I figured she did put her in farther.IMO :seeya:

-----------
Added on Monday:
I also think kc would place her there
as she knew well as soon as there was
heavy rain,the area would be under water
for quite some time.