Were there floor jacks in the Ramsey basement?

[Sophie]

I really think the hair is a non-issue. In summer JBR's hair would naturally lighten up in the sun.....at the most, her hair was highlighted. You can tell a total peroxide job, and I'm sure most hair dressers would not do that on a child. Nowadays, highlighting is not that unusual for young girls. I don't have a reference for the highlighting, but think it was in one of the books. In the pageant world, highlighting hair is not unusual. If you've ever spent time in the Colorado sun, with the high altitude, lighter hair like JBR's can get bleached naturally by the sun. The two ponytails don't seem unusal---I suppose long hair gets tangled, and a couple pony tails helps keep it in order.

The blow to the head was the final act by this monster. I don't know why, but it's not the first murder where the victim was strangled, and then hit on the head...overkill. I think the perp became enraged at JBR---perhaps because she was putting up a fuss, and he was finding it hard to control her. Also, he couldn't get her out of the window and he panicked. As we recently heard in the death of Natasha Richardson, it can take time for the blood clot to form in a closed head injury. There wasn't that much blood pooling around the injury, so she was close to death when the blow occurred.

Bedwetting was not an issue, except for Steve Thomas's trying to find a motive. Nowadays,there's a lot of things like disposable underwear, protection for the bed, where it just isn't a big deal. At the worst, if the sheets became soiled there was a washer/dryer near JBR's bedroom. Patsy also had help...she wasn't an over-stressed stay at home mom. The bed-wetting was occasional, and they had pull-ups in the house.

Thanks, Maikai. You may be right although Pam Paugh said that it was JBR who wanted her hair dyed to make it more blonde while Patsy credited it mostly to Michigan summers so I guess it's another one of those issues that will never be cleared up and may not be relevant. Of course, it would help to know how JBR had her hair for the Whites' party. If it was in that arrangement for the party, then this debate would be irrelevant. If not, you'd have to query the Ramseys leaving the little lamb in her day clothes (barring the longjohns) etc so she could stay sleeping while also putting her hair in pony tails to keep it tidy. Certainly, we know that Patsy put JBR's hair in curlers for pageants (according to one of the babysitters).

Must say, though, I don't think the bedwetting theory is that much of a stretch. For example, over Christmas, LHP wasn't working and, by her own admission, Patsy was stressed with everything they had to do over the holidays (see ST interview in which she says that she wasn't too enthusiastic about going to Michigan when there was so much else to do). I'm not especially wedded to that theory and, while being essentially PDI or PKNWDI, I'd be surprised if it weren't a tad more complicated than yet more soggy sheets getting on Patsy's nerves.

 

[Ames]

I really think the hair is a non-issue. In summer JBR's hair would naturally lighten up in the sun.....at the most, her hair was highlighted. You can tell a total peroxide job, and I'm sure most hair dressers would not do that on a child. Nowadays, highlighting is not that unusual for young girls. I don't have a reference for the highlighting, but think it was in one of the books. In the pageant world, highlighting hair is not unusual. If you've ever spent time in the Colorado sun, with the high altitude, lighter hair like JBR's can get bleached naturally by the sun. The two ponytails don't seem unusal---I suppose long hair gets tangled, and a couple pony tails helps keep it in order.

The blow to the head was the final act by this monster. I don't know why, but it's not the first murder where the victim was strangled, and then hit on the head...overkill. I think the perp became enraged at JBR---perhaps because she was putting up a fuss, and he was finding it hard to control her. Also, he couldn't get her out of the window and he panicked. As we recently heard in the death of Natasha Richardson, it can take time for the blood clot to form in a closed head injury. There wasn't that much blood pooling around the injury, so she was close to death when the blow occurred.

Bedwetting was not an issue, except for Steve Thomas's trying to find a motive. Nowadays,there's a lot of things like disposable underwear, protection for the bed, where it just isn't a big deal. At the worst, if the sheets became soiled there was a washer/dryer near JBR's bedroom. Patsy also had help...she wasn't an over-stressed stay at home mom. The bed-wetting was occasional, and they had pull-ups in the house.

Um, JB's hair was NOT lightened by the Colorado sun. We lived in Montana, two states up...and even with the high altitude, it wouldn't have lightened her hair THAT much. Judith Phillips, Patsy's ex-friend, asked Patsy how JB's hair got lightened and PATSY said, by the sun, while they were on vacation. Judith said that she knew that Patsy was lying, because the sun woudln't have lightened hair THAT much. My daughter has naturally light blonde hair, and the sun didn't lighten hers up THAT much. You need to do more research. JB's hair was naturally BROWN....do a search, and take a look at the pictures that were made of her at four years old. Her hair, was just a tad bit lighter than Burkes. Her hair was NOT highlighted....I DID go to cosmetology show, and have done color. Her hair was BLEACHED. Where do you get your information...??

Mame: Were you shocked? Obviously when you saw the bleach blond hair.

JP: Yeah, I was shocked. That's why I asked Patsy...'what did you do to JonBenét hair? You didn't dye it did you?' And she said no, no, no..It was the hot summer sun in Charlesvoix that dyed her hair.

Mame: And it was obviously bleached?

JP: laughing....yes. It was obviously bleached....It was obviously bleached..I thought how stupid do you think I am...I didn't respond, but I thought. I said oh isn't that interesting.


Trust me...if JB had of been strangled FIRST, she would have fought like h*ll to remove the cord. There would have been skin from her own neck under her nails, as well as scratches on her neck...which there wasn't. If her hand's were bound, there would have been rope burn on her skin, where she tried to break free...to get to the cord around her neck. I have been strangled before...and survived...obviously. There is no way that the head wound came AFTER the strangulation. You need to do some more research.

IMO..the bed wetting WAS an issue, especially on the night that she was murdered.

 

[BBB167893]

Must say, though, I don't think the bedwetting theory is that much of a stretch. For example, over Christmas, LHP wasn't working and, by her own admission, Patsy was stressed with everything they had to do over the holidays (see ST interview in which she says that she wasn't too enthusiastic about going to Michigan when there was so much else to do). I'm not especially wedded to that theory and, while being essentially PDI or PKNWDI, I'd be surprised if it weren't a tad more complicated than yet more soggy sheets getting on Patsy's nerves.

I'm not wedded to the theory either. But Ames knows what it's like to be strangled. No WAY the head blow came last. The pathologists said anywhere from ten minutes to an hour first.

 

[Sophie]

That's awful! I hope the person who did this was caught and punished.

 

[Sophie]

I'm not wedded to the theory either. But Ames knows what it's like to be strangled. No WAY the head blow came last. The pathologists said anywhere from ten minutes to an hour first.

Must say, it surprises me to read people claiming that the head blow came last. You probably know off the top of your head, Dave, is there anyone involved in the case who actually claimed this?

 

[Maikai]

JBR did struggle while she was being strangled. There are photos that show the cord imbedded in her neck and half-moon scratches where she tried to claw it off.

I'm not a fan of Cyril Wecht, but even he feels the blow to the head was done while she was near death, because of the small amount of blood that was pooled around the injury.

There was no evidence in the bedding that JBR had an accident that night.

 

[Maikai]

Thanks, Maikai. You may be right although Pam Paugh said that it was JBR who wanted her hair dyed to make it more blonde while Patsy credited it mostly to Michigan summers so I guess it's another one of those issues that will never be cleared up and may not be relevant. Of course, it would help to know how JBR had her hair for the Whites' party. If it was in that arrangement for the party, then this debate would be irrelevant. If not, you'd have to query the Ramseys leaving the little lamb in her day clothes (barring the longjohns) etc so she could stay sleeping while also putting her hair in pony tails to keep it tidy. Certainly, we know that Patsy put JBR's hair in curlers for pageants (according to one of the babysitters).

Must say, though, I don't think the bedwetting theory is that much of a stretch. For example, over Christmas, LHP wasn't working and, by her own admission, Patsy was stressed with everything they had to do over the holidays (see ST interview in which she says that she wasn't too enthusiastic about going to Michigan when there was so much else to do). I'm not especially wedded to that theory and, while being essentially PDI or PKNWDI, I'd be surprised if it weren't a tad more complicated than yet more soggy sheets getting on Patsy's nerves.

I don't put any credence in anything LHP said after she started getting paid by the tabloids. Her comments before, had always been that the Ramseys were a loving family. I would suspect the ponytails were in place before going to the White's. When they came home JR carried JBR up to bed--she was out like a light. I doubt Patsy would have monkeyed with her hair. She just put the longjohns on and tucked her in.

Going to Michigan wasn't that stressful---they had a private plane, so no hassles with airports, and Patsy had called her housekeeper there to have the house decorated. She may have commented that she wasn't entirely crazy about going, since they were going on the Disney boat when they came back, but I don't think it stressed her out. No one has ever commented that they saw Patsy lose her temper. She had just gotten a good report on the cancer, and John's business was going strong.

 

[Ames]

JBR did struggle while she was being strangled. There are photos that show the cord imbedded in her neck and half-moon scratches where she tried to claw it off.

I'm not a fan of Cyril Wecht, but even he feels the blow to the head was done while she was near death, because of the small amount of blood that was pooled around the injury.

There was no evidence in the bedding that JBR had an accident that night.

Look at the autopsy report again, those were not scratches...it was bleeding beneath the skin. Also, if she had clawed herself, she would have alot of her own skin under her nails...and she didn't. Have you even read the autopsy report, or are you just looking at the pictures, and reaching your own conclusions? Just wondering.

The sheets were different sheets than the ones LHP had put on JB's bed. How do you know that Patsy didn't change or wash them? And what about the bloodstain on the pillow?

 

[Ames]

I don't put any credence in anything LHP said after she started getting paid by the tabloids. Her comments before, had always been that the Ramseys were a loving family. I would suspect the ponytails were in place before going to the White's. When they came home JR carried JBR up to bed--she was out like a light. I doubt Patsy would have monkeyed with her hair. She just put the longjohns on and tucked her in.

Going to Michigan wasn't that stressful---they had a private plane, so no hassles with airports, and Patsy had called her housekeeper there to have the house decorated. She may have commented that she wasn't entirely crazy about going, since they were going on the Disney boat when they came back, but I don't think it stressed her out. No one has ever commented that they saw Patsy lose her temper. She had just gotten a good report on the cancer, and John's business was going strong.

I seriously doubt that Patsy would have put JB's hair in THREE ponytails..with non-matching ponytail holders to go to the mailbox, much less to a party. Patsy herself said that she put her hair in ponytails before going to bed...I guess to keep it out of her face while she slept. Have you even read the interviews? I do not believe that she ever did this, because to sleep in them would be uncomfortable...BUT...if she had of worn her hair like that to the White's...Patsy would have simply said..."She wore her hair like that to the White's".

Patsy also said AT FIRST, that she put JB to bed wearing a red turtleneck, and longjohns...and then she changed her story to that she just changed her pants...to longjohns. Supposedly JB was asleep when the long johns were placed on her........longjohns are hard enough to put onto an AWAKE child, much less one that is sleeping, without waking them up. Why would Patsy choose the hardest thing in the world for her to put on JB, to sleep in...all the while trying NOT to wake JB up while doing so?? Yeah, THAT makes sense...

You said..." She had just gotten a good report on the cancer, and John's business was going strong"

I say...Patsy admitted to drinking at the White's party. How do you know that she wasn't a little tipsy...JB wet the bed, and that is what set her off. I do NOT believe that Patsy intentionally killed JB, though. I think that it was a horrible accident, turned cover-up.

 

[Maikai]

Look at the autopsy report again, those were not scratches...it was bleeding beneath the skin. Also, if she had clawed herself, she would have alot of her own skin under her nails...and she didn't. Have you even read the autopsy report, or are you just looking at the pictures, and reaching your own conclusions? Just wondering.

The sheets were different sheets than the ones LHP had put on JB's bed. How do you know that Patsy didn't change or wash them? And what about the bloodstain on the pillow?

Go to this link, and scroll down to the second picture from the bottom: (I'm not computer literate enough to cut and paste it)

http://www.jameson245.com/garotte.htm

Also, Lou Smit, who was the most experienced investigator on the case said this on Larry King:

KING: You never found a case where a mother did that.

SMIT: Never recorded history where a family member -- a mother or a father has garroted their child. Child strangulation is very rare. Usually when a person is involved in the death of their child, the child is hit on the head or pushed into something, to take -- to take a piece of rope, fashion a garrote, put it on the child's neck, she is definitely struggling at the time that this is put on the neck, there are fingernail marks in her neck, which suggest very strongly, that she was awake, when this happened.

John Meyer, the medical examiner that performed the autopsy, didn't get everything right--he missed the stun gun marks. He noted abrasions, but didn't know that they were stun gun marks. Likewise, he didn't specifically call out the scratches on her neck. I'm not aware one way or the other if it's ever been publically stated that JBR's skin was under her nails. There was foreign DNA, which ultimately matched DNA in her panties.

The sheets were not changed....at least not on the 26th. That seems to be an established fact. Also found on the sheets were fibers that were found in the paper bag that held rope in John Andrews bedroom....and ligarture cord fibers. Patsy could have changed them since LHP was there--or LHP got it wrong. I'm not aware of a bloodstain being found on the pillow.

 

[Maikai]

I seriously doubt that Patsy would have put JB's hair in THREE ponytails..with non-matching ponytail holders to go to the mailbox, much less to a party. Patsy herself said that she put her hair in ponytails before going to bed...I guess to keep it out of her face while she slept. Have you even read the interviews?

Patsy also said AT FIRST, that she put JB to bed wearing a red turtleneck, and longjohns...and then she changed her story to that she just changed her pants...to longjohns.

You said..." She had just gotten a good report on the cancer, and John's business was going strong"

I say...Patsy admitted to drinking at the White's party. How do you know that she wasn't a little tipsy...JB wet the bed, and that is what set her off. I do NOT believe that Patsy intentionally killed JB, though. I think that it was a horrible accident, turned cover-up.

It's been a while since I read or watched any interviews, so if Patsy said she put her hair in ponytails in bed, then I guess she did. I don't see where the ponytails have any bearing on the case, and I think a child sound asleep could sleep through changing of the pants to underwear...not sure about pony tails. Patsy did change her story apparently about the red turtleneck---which was found I believe, balled up in the bathroom. JBR had it on earlier in the day---the inconsistency doesn't seem to be a bid deal considering the trauma that day.

If Patsy could have been tipsy, don't you think she would have passed out? As it is, no one has said Patsy was a heavy drinker---only a glass or two of wine occasionally. I do think the perp was a druggie---and possibly high on something at the time of the crime, such as methamphetamine. Also, the weapons brought in such as a stun gun....possibly a bat....are more in line with what the young thugs in the area were using at the time. The blow to the head was powerful, and done with a great deal of force. Patsy did not have a criminal mind---she didn't know how to make a garrotte, let alone use it on her daughter, and there's no way she could have lurked around the house in the dark undetected doing all this staging and coverup, and remaining quiet.

 

[Sophie]

I seriously doubt that Patsy would have put JB's hair in THREE ponytails..with non-matching ponytail holders to go to the mailbox, much less to a party. Patsy herself said that she put her hair in ponytails before going to bed...I guess to keep it out of her face while she slept. Have you even read the interviews? I do not believe that she ever did this, because to sleep in them would be uncomfortable...BUT...if she had of worn her hair like that to the White's...Patsy would have simply said..."She wore her hair like that to the White's".

Patsy also said AT FIRST, that she put JB to bed wearing a red turtleneck, and longjohns...and then she changed her story to that she just changed her pants...to longjohns. Supposedly JB was asleep when the long johns were placed on her........longjohns are hard enough to put onto an AWAKE child, much less one that is sleeping, without waking them up. Why would Patsy choose the hardest thing in the world for her to put on JB, to sleep in...all the while trying NOT to wake JB up while doing so?? Yeah, THAT makes sense...

You said..." She had just gotten a good report on the cancer, and John's business was going strong"

I say...Patsy admitted to drinking at the White's party. How do you know that she wasn't a little tipsy...JB wet the bed, and that is what set her off. I do NOT believe that Patsy intentionally killed JB, though. I think that it was a horrible accident, turned cover-up.

Agree with most of this, Ames. Your knowledge of this case is encyclopaedic: you and SuperDave could teach a course!

 

[Sophie]

I don't put any credence in anything LHP said after she started getting paid by the tabloids. Her comments before, had always been that the Ramseys were a loving family. I would suspect the ponytails were in place before going to the White's. When they came home JR carried JBR up to bed--she was out like a light. I doubt Patsy would have monkeyed with her hair. She just put the longjohns on and tucked her in.

Going to Michigan wasn't that stressful---they had a private plane, so no hassles with airports, and Patsy had called her housekeeper there to have the house decorated. She may have commented that she wasn't entirely crazy about going, since they were going on the Disney boat when they came back, but I don't think it stressed her out. No one has ever commented that they saw Patsy lose her temper. She had just gotten a good report on the cancer, and John's business was going strong.

I know what you mean, Maikai, but, if you've had stage four ovarian cancer, the outlook is never that good and there have been suggestions (albeit from sources outside the investigation) that maybe John's place at Access Graphics wasn't as stable as it appeared. Not that this matters other than as background. I honestly think that Patsy lived an incredibly stressed life. The thought of everything she was packing into Christmas week stresses me just to think about it. Of course, a lot of it was self-induced, like making sure the Michigan house was decked out elaborately for the holidays etc, but also making sure everyone looked picture perfect (eg. dyeing one's own hair on Christmas Day allegedly).

 

[Maikai]

I know what you mean, Maikai, but, if you've had stage four ovarian cancer, the outlook is never that good and there have been suggestions (albeit from sources outside the investigation) that maybe John's place at Access Graphics wasn't as stable as it appeared. Not that this matters other than as background. I honestly think that Patsy lived an incredibly stressed life. The thought of everything she was packing into Christmas week stresses me just to think about it. Of course, a lot of it was self-induced, like making sure the Michigan house was decked out elaborately for the holidays etc, but also making sure everyone looked picture perfect (eg. dyeing one's own hair on Christmas Day allegedly).

Patsy did incredibly well in her survival of ovarian cancer. Anyone facing what she did isn't going to be bothered by the little things. She loved Christmas, so all the preparation beforehand was a pleasure--not stressful, and she had the means to hire people to do some of the preparation. LHP, Marv, and LHP's son-in-law were paid to take out the Christmas decorations out of the wine cellar room in November, while Patsy and JBR went to NYC to shop. Christmas Eve and Christmas Day itself were relatively quiet, being spent mainly with family. She didn't even have to make Christmas dinner. As far as the Michigan home, all she had to do was make a phone call, and she had trusted people there to cleanup and decorate the house.

Access Graphics was eventually bought by GE. Part of the original sale, was that JR would stay on as CEO, which isn't unusual. He had enough money to retire, although a lot was used up after the murder defending himself, and hiring outside experts to help the bundling BPD. He was smart enough to know his employment may not have been longterm. They only got rid of him because of the notoreity of the murder. I doubt there was any stress there regarding money. In fact Patsy had a blank checkbook for the most part.

I've talked to people that knew them prior to the murder, and they all say the Ramseys were a loving family, and Patsy generous in her time and money to charities. She adapted quite well to the Boulder environment from Atlanta. If it were me, living in Boulder would be a major stress..not my cup of tea!

 

[BBB167893]

Must say, it surprises me to read people claiming that the head blow came last. You probably know off the top of your head, Dave, is there anyone involved in the case who actually claimed this?

None of the official pathologists, if that's what you're asking. Other than that, Lou Smit, but that's only one of several instances where he just invented things out of thin air.

But I know at LEAST four who agree with me:

Werner Spitz

Tom Henry

Ronald Wright

and Henry Lee.

 

[BBB167893]

JBR did struggle while she was being strangled. There are photos that show the cord imbedded in her neck and half-moon scratches where she tried to claw it off.

The photos show nothing of the sort. Neither does the autopsy report.

I'm not a fan of Cyril Wecht, but even he feels the blow to the head was done while she was near death, because of the small amount of blood that was pooled around the injury.

Small amount, he says.

 

[BBB167893]

Go to this link, and scroll down to the second picture from the bottom: (I'm not computer literate enough to cut and paste it)

http://www.jameson245.com/garotte.htm

I have seen them.

Also, Lou Smit, who was the most experienced investigator on the case said this on Larry King:

KING: You never found a case where a mother did that.

SMIT: Never recorded history where a family member -- a mother or a father has garroted their child. Child strangulation is very rare. Usually when a person is involved in the death of their child, the child is hit on the head or pushed into something, to take -- to take a piece of rope, fashion a garrote, put it on the child's neck, she is definitely struggling at the time that this is put on the neck, there are fingernail marks in her neck, which suggest very strongly, that she was awake, when this happened.

Like I said, an instance (among several) where he just made up his own evidence regardless of facts. Not too long ago, I came across a quote of Smit's where he admits that he never spoke to the pathologists, Werner Spitz in particular.
Now that I think of it, he very rarely spoke to anyone who disagreed with him who had a fair amount of experience. Sure, he played the BPD and DA for suckers, but never seemed to take on anyone who might actually know what they were talking about. Mm, mm, mm.

John Meyer, the medical examiner that performed the autopsy, didn't get everything right--he missed the stun gun marks. He noted abrasions, but didn't know that they were stun gun marks.

That's another instance (the biggest one, IMO) where Smit just made stuff up. And I can prove it.

Likewise, he didn't specifically call out the scratches on her neck. I'm not aware one way or the other if it's ever been publically stated that JBR's skin was under her nails.

A little bit of skin, not the mounds of flesh you'd expect to find if you were correct.

 

[BBB167893]

If Patsy could have been tipsy, don't you think she would have passed out? As it is, no one has said Patsy was a heavy drinker---only a glass or two of wine occasionally.

Combined with whatever drug, who knows?

Patsy did not have a criminal mind---she didn't know how to make a garrotte, let alone use it on her daughter,

That's what we've been saying! Whoever killed her didn't know what they were doing, either!

and there's no way she could have lurked around the house in the dark undetected doing all this staging and coverup, and remaining quiet.

Who says she WAS quiet?

 

[BBB167893]

Patsy did incredibly well in her survival of ovarian cancer. Anyone facing what she did isn't going to be bothered by the little things.

Oh, no? You never met my parents. I saw what cancer did to them, more specifically the treatments.

Moreover, what about by BIG things?

He had enough money to retire, although a lot was used up after the murder defending himself, and hiring outside experts to help the bundling BPD.

Help the BPD?! You mean hamstring them, which John himself admitted!

I've talked to people that knew them prior to the murder, and they all say the Ramseys were a loving family, and Patsy generous in her time and money to charities. She adapted quite well to the Boulder environment from Atlanta. If it were me, living in Boulder would be a major stress..not my cup of tea!

If I had a nickel for every time I've heard a killer parent be described as "loving," I could retire young. Besides, what has THAT got to do with anything? Just about everyone here agrees there was tremendous love. I myself have always believed that.

 

[DeeDee249]

The coroner disproved any notion of the marks on her neck being scratches. They were not fingernail marks. They were petechiae, common in strangling victims.
Most feel PR loved her daughter very much, however controlling she was. This was not a premeditated murder, IMHO. This was a rage accident, and once that blow cracked her skull, the staging took over like a runaway train.
I say rage accident, because it is different from a true accident, such as JBR falling down the stairs for example. In that case, even if the fall had killed her instantly, the parents would probably still have called for help. I say probably because if they felt sexual abuse may be disclosed in an autopsy, they may still have staged a murder.
Though PR didn't intend to kill her daughter, once that bash landed, there was no turning back. To call 911 at that point would mean an R being charged with something, even aggravated manslaughter. Though in Boulder, I doubt there would have been any jail or even significant consequences. But there would have been lots of negative publicity, loss of status in the community (which PR particularly thrived on) and a difficult situation for BR. The staging and their subsequent escape from responsibility for the death of their daughter gave them a pass. One they still enjoy- PR through her death and thus freedom from prosecution, and JR though his supreme ability to sleaze his way out of the whole thing.