What do the profilers say?

[Cupiedoo]

Just a thought...

These days there are several professions in which a person is legally required to report ANY suspicion of abuse (teachers, etc.). I don't know if this requirement currently extends to doctors, or if they are precluded from this requirement because of a doctor/patient privilege. Does anyone know if doctors were required to report suspicions of abuse in 1996?

I guess I'm just speculating that it could be that after JonBenet's death, the doctor felt guilty about failing to report suspicions and had to therefore emphatically state that there was no abuse...in order to protect his career.

Pure speculation here, people!

Cupiedoo

 

[Linda7NJ]

Just a thought...

These days there are several professions in which a person is legally required to report ANY suspicion of abuse (teachers, etc.). I don't know if this requirement currently extends to doctors, or if they are precluded from this requirement because of a doctor/patient privilege. Does anyone know if doctors were required to report suspicions of abuse in 1996?

I guess I'm just speculating that it could be that after JonBenet's death, the doctor felt guilty about failing to report suspicions and had to therefore emphatically state that there was no abuse...in order to protect his career.

Pure speculation here, people!

Cupiedoo

Yes, Doctors are mandated reporters, as are daycare providers, foster parents, teachers, etc

 

[BlueCrab]

Ignoring the fact that the autopsy says nothing about her having been chronically sexually abused...

tipper,

The autopsy provided the forensic information for a team of medical doctors, after studying the autopsy report and the microscopic slides of her injuries, to unanimously agree that JonBenet had been chronically sexually abused.

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

tipper,

The autopsy provided the forensic information for a team of medical doctors, after studying the autopsy report and the microscopic slides of her injuries, to unanimously agree that JonBenet had been chronically sexually abused.

BlueCrab

A hand picked team. I notice they didn't ask Sirotnik to join their group. We know they shopped around until they found Foster. I am confident they did they same with these doctors.

And Beuf?

 

[Linda7NJ]

tipper,

The autopsy provided the forensic information for a team of medical doctors, after studying the autopsy report and the microscopic slides of her injuries, to unanimously agree that JonBenet had been chronically sexually abused.

BlueCrab

I ain't buying it. She may very well have been chronically sexually abused however, the postmortem examination did not meet the standard to prove it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

tipper,

The autopsy provided the forensic information for a team of medical doctors, after studying the autopsy report and the microscopic slides of her injuries, to unanimously agree that JonBenet had been chronically sexually abused.

BlueCrab

Weren't some of the doctors called in by the tabloids?

 

[BlueCrab]

I ain't buying it. She may very well have been chronically sexually abused however, the postmortem examination did not meet the standard to prove it.

Linda7NJ,

What standard? Can you furnish a source please?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Linda7NJ,

What standard? Can you furnish a source please?

[size=+2]DIAGNOSTIC CONSIDERATIONS[/size]
The diagnosis of child sexual abuse often can be made based on a child's history. Physical examination alone is infrequently diagnostic in the absence of a history and/or specific laboratory findings. Physical findings are often absent even when the perpetrator admits to penetration of the child's genitalia.22-24 Many types of abuse leave no physical evidence, and mucosal injuries often heal rapidly.25-27 Occasionally, a child presents with clear evidence of anogenital trauma without an adequate history. Abused children may deny abuse. Findings that are concerning, but in isolation are not dianostic of sexual abuse include: 1) abrasions or bruising of the inner thighs and genitalia; 2) scarring or tears of the labia minora; and 3) enlargement of the hymenal opening. Findings that are more concerning include: 1) scarring, tears, or distortion of the hymen; 2) a decreased amount of or absent hymenal tissue; 3) scarring of the fossa navicularis; 4) injury to or scarring of the posterior fourchette; and 5) anal lacerations.1826-28 The physician, the multidisciplinary team evaluating the child, and the courts must establish a level of certainty about whether a child has been sexually abused. Table 2 provides suggested guidelines for making the decision to report sexual abuse of children based on currently available information. The presence of semen, sperm, or acid phosphatase; a positive culture for gonorrhea; or a positive serologic test for syphilis or human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection makes the diagnosis of sexual abuse a medical certainty, even in the absence of a positive history, when congenital forms of gonorrhea, syphilis, and congenital or transfusion-acquired HIV (as well as needle sharing) are excluded.

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;103/1/186

Please look at this chart:

Adams Classification Table, April 2003: Physical and Laboratory Findings​

Used with permission of Joyce Adams, MD




http://www.child-protection.org/CPT/Providers/Injuries.htm#PAimaging

and again:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11217168&dopt=Abstract

last one:

http://www.guideline.gov/summary/summary.aspx?view_id=1&doc_id=7583

 

[Camper]

:clap::clap::clap:

Do you suppose that the BPD actually talked with the school nurse? Were the two trips to the school nurse by JonBenet on MONDAYS just prior to Christmas, anecdotal WS rumor OR, did anyone keep a source for that information???

Help me out here with a source. Thanks.



.

 

[BlueCrab]

[size=+2]DIAGNOSTIC CONSIDERATIONS[/size]
The diagnosis of child sexual abuse often can be made based on a child's history. Physical examination alone is infrequently diagnostic in the absence of a history and/or specific laboratory findings. Physical findings are often absent even when the perpetrator admits to penetration of the child's genitalia.22-24 Many types of abuse leave no physical evidence, and mucosal injuries often heal rapidly.25-27 Occasionally, a child presents with clear evidence of anogenital trauma without an adequate history. Abused children may deny abuse. Findings that are concerning, but in isolation are not dianostic of sexual abuse include: 1) abrasions or bruising of the inner thighs and genitalia; 2) scarring or tears of the labia minora; and 3) enlargement of the hymenal opening. Findings that are more concerning include: 1) scarring, tears, or distortion of the hymen; 2) a decreased amount of or absent hymenal tissue; 3) scarring of the fossa navicularis; 4) injury to or scarring of the posterior fourchette; and 5) anal lacerations.1826-28 The physician, the multidisciplinary team evaluating the child, and the courts must establish a level of certainty about whether a child has been sexually abused. Table 2 provides suggested guidelines for making the decision to report sexual abuse of children based on currently available information. The presence of semen, sperm, or acid phosphatase; a positive culture for gonorrhea; or a positive serologic test for syphilis or human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection makes the diagnosis of sexual abuse a medical certainty, even in the absence of a positive history, when congenital forms of gonorrhea, syphilis, and congenital or transfusion-acquired HIV (as well as needle sharing) are excluded.

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;103/1/186

Please look at this chart:

Adams Classification Table, April 2003: Physical and Laboratory Findings​

Used with permission of Joyce Adams, MD




http://www.child-protection.org/CPT/Providers/Injuries.htm#PAimaging

and again:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11217168&dopt=Abstract

last one:

http://www.guideline.gov/summary/summary.aspx?view_id=1&doc_id=7583

Linda7NJ,

Thank you for providing the diagnostic considerations for sexual abuse.

As you surely have noticed from the source you have provided above, JonBenet's autopsy revealed almost all of the diagnostic considerations that would indicate sexual abuse (enlarged hymenal opening, absence of hymenal tissue, scarring and tears, etc.).

BlueCrab

 

[Linda7NJ]

Linda7NJ,

Thank you for providing the diagnostic considerations for sexual abuse.

As you surely have noticed from the source you have provided above, JonBenet's autopsy revealed almost all of the diagnostic considerations that would indicate sexual abuse (enlarged hymenal opening, absence of hymenal tissue, scarring and tears, etc.).

BlueCrab

It was my understanding that we were discussing CHRONIC sexual abuse. I think we can all agree she was sexually assaulted with something the night of the murder.

It's remains impossible to definitively state she was chronically sexually abused. To continue to do so isn't really productive.

The postmortem exam simply doesn't meet the standards and the "evaluation" by the "experts" certainly met no medical standard for several reasons. The largest ones being photographs were used, she was dead at the time, and the other tests mandated were not utilized.

"Healed trauma:

Hymenal transection (healed), defined as an area where the hymen has been torn through, to the base, so there is no hymenal tissue remaining between the vaginal wall and the fossa or vestibular wall.(viii) This finding has also been referred to as a “complete cleft” in adolescent and young adult women.(x)

Wide areas in the posterior (inferior) half of the hymenal rim with an absence of hymenal tissue, extending to the base of the hymen, which is confirmed using additional examination technique (swab, Foley catheter, prone knee-chest position)."

http://www.pathguy.com/adams.htm

I am not saying she wasn't chronically sexually abused, I am simply saying the poof to a medical or even legal certainty isn't there.

 

[narlacat]

>>It's remains impossible to definitively state she was chronically sexually abused. To continue to do so isn't really productive.<<


Well, the experts can't agree and neither can we at WS.
Maybe my reasoning isn't all that logical, but I look at the way she ended up and sadly conclude that JonBenet paid dearly for her priviledged life style even before she was found dead in the basement.
I'm going with the experts who say she had been sexually abused prior to that fateful night.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

When you look at the amount of times that JonBenet visited the doctor for genital concerns like vaginal irritation, I think it looks like there is some indication of molestation going on. I cannot name one other young girl in my realm of acquaintances that has had near the amount of need to be treated for conditions involving her genitals as JonBenet. The whole issue of her ongoing toileting problems indicates molestation to me also.

 

[tipper]

When you look at the amount of times that JonBenet visited the doctor for genital concerns like vaginal irritation, I think it looks like there is some indication of molestation going on. I cannot name one other young girl in my realm of acquaintances that has had near the amount of need to be treated for conditions involving her genitals as JonBenet. The whole issue of her ongoing toileting problems indicates molestation to me also.

How many times did she go in for genital concerns?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

More than the average girl. Enough that it's worthy of commentary. I'm not sure the exact number is listed anywhere I can find it, but I'll look around. Doesn't knowing that much make you raise your eyebrows at all? When I hear that along with hearing she had an enlarged hymenal opening and older healing wounds, that is enough to make me believe that Christmas night is not the only time someone molested her.

 

[tipper]

More than the average girl. Enough that it's worthy of commentary. I'm not sure the exact number is listed anywhere I can find it, but I'll look around. Doesn't knowing that much make you raise your eyebrows at all? When I hear that along with hearing she had an enlarged hymenal opening and older healing wounds, that is enough to make me believe that Christmas night is not the only time someone molested her.

You should read Beuf's interview. It will tell you how many visits and for what.

If the abuse happened as or after she died the hymen could stay enlarged. I don't think there are older "wounds." I think there is indication of older irritation which we know from previous posts could come from a variety of sources other than molestation.

Added: She also had areas of the same chronic interstitial inflammatory infiltrate in her thyroid. What do you think caused that?

 

[narlacat]

When you look at the amount of times that JonBenet visited the doctor for genital concerns like vaginal irritation, I think it looks like there is some indication of molestation going on. I cannot name one other young girl in my realm of acquaintances that has had near the amount of need to be treated for conditions involving her genitals as JonBenet. The whole issue of her ongoing toileting problems indicates molestation to me also.

Jonbenet had significant toileting problems.
The bedwetting and the regression to wearing pull ups in the day time cannot be ignored.
Her problem that Patsy, Nedra and Pam referred to as 'dirtying' could have been a bowel problem totally unrelated to her maybe having been abused.
My little boy has what you call a lazy bowel. This comes from not going to the toilet when he feels the urge (for whatever reason, not wanting to take the time and stop what he is doing and go to the toilet) After a time little bits get caught way up in the rectum and cause the trigger (the urge to go) to not to work....so they actually don't feel the urge to go and end up in a real mess.
Maybe JonBenet had the same problem...god knows she was a busy little 6 year old, always on the go......

 

[sissi]

For what it's worth, I ran a carpool in the seventies for 6 little boys, ages 6 to 11. More than once a week I had to open the windows for definite odor of dirty drawers. Moms don't usually share the information , it's carries a bit of a "stigma of mommy failure"(which of course is not the fact). Narlacat you are far from alone, most pediatricians aren't in the sharing circle either , they will tell you it isn't common, while it is.
Nuisanceposter, there were NO healing wounds, that information can only be "found" on forums.
If there were ANY true and real POSSIBILITY of prior sexual molestation, Burke would have been removed from the home. There was none.
The dpt shot in Jonbenet's era, caused a drop in t cells causing an induced , however limited, immune deficiency. Many children saw the doctor more often during that time, many developed bowel symptoms, allergies, chronic ear infections while sadly too many developed autism. This immune deficiency lasted as long as five years in some children, leading possibly to the connection between live measle vaccine to cause syndromes that were devastating. ( but that's another topic)

In the Journal of Infectious Diseases (1992) there was a report of the DPT vaccine (Diphtheria-Pertussis-Tetanus) provoking a significantly higher incidence of paralytic poliomyelitis in Oman during a polio epidemic in that country. (6) Although the wild polio virus does not exist in the U.S.A at this time, this report indicates that the DPT vaccine can and often does lower the resistance of the vaccinated person, opening the way for other diseases. Comment: The counterpart in this country may be the increasing incidence of common respiratory/ear infections, asthma and other allergies, and neurobehavioral problems.

If you get a chance read Robert Kennedy Jr.'s report in Salon, or in Rolling Stone, he isn't researching for the money, he is doing this for an entire generation of damaged children.

There is nothing in the Jonbenet case, IMO, that indicates anything other than a violent attack and murder on the night of Christmas.

 

[narlacat]

Hi Sissi

I was going to add in my earlier post, that I am not alone and I have been told that what is wrong with my child's bowel is in fact quite common.

It does carry a "stigma of mummy failure". I felt that way at first, even though I am the most diligent of mother's, I still blamed myself.
It is an ongoing problem that requires daily care and routine.

 

[LinasK]

If there were ANY true and real POSSIBILITY of prior sexual molestation, Burke would have been removed from the home. There was none.

And I believe that John was the molester, NOT Burke, therefore Patsy - willing to cover for either of them and a pediatrician willing to overlook the symptoms or incompetent to diagnose sexual abuse, and Burke was not removed. Your theory is no proof that JB was not molested. I believe her bedwetting and BM regression were as a result of the chronic molestation, this is how this little 6-year old girl coped, by regressing. I was molested at 13, so I have a good idea how she felt...