What do the profilers say?

[UKGuy]

Excellent post Angel....the fact that this murder occured Christmas night makes it extremely hard for me to believe that an intruder broke in and killed JonBenet. Christmas is a day where families gather from out-of-town and spend the night.

John's flashlight was used to hit JonBenet over the head with.

The cord came from the home.

The tape came from something in the home.

The pineapple was eaten by JonBenet.

The notepad and pen came from the home.

No doubt in my mind the killer was a Ramsey.

JUST MY OPINION

John's flashlight was used to hit JonBenet over the head with.

This is a presumptive statement. JonBenet's head injury may have been incurred in some other manner e.g. it may have been accidental.

Someone well known to the Ramseys may have returned to the Ramsey household to sexually assault and murder JonBenet, and the resulting coverup, may simply be a consequence of some prior illegal activity entered into by the perpetrator and the Ramseys, or the perpetrator is related.

Has anyone seen a profiler publish a victim profile of JonBenet, including risk assessment etc?

Profilers tend to allow the evidence speak to them, or they draw inferences from the crime scene evidence to profile the offender. It would be bad practise to draw conclusions from cultural expectations such as ramadan or christmas.

.

 

[narlacat]

>>The main problem with RDI is that it completely defies logic. I mean, a family member is simply not going to leave three pages of handwriting at a capital murder scene. Period.<<


I disagree.
IMO The family thought that that was the only way to explain what had happened to JonBenet. Stage the scene and stage the body.
They took a gamble, and it paid off.

 

[simplesimon]

I believe the R's were involved somehow simply because of the lies and actions they took,HOWEVER profilers can be wrong. Look at the Wsahington snipers. the FBI profile was of a young white male loner. No one expected TWO black males,one very young, that were questioned by police numerous times in the area and not even looked at for the crimes. They were loitering and acting suspicious, but the police had no interest in them at all probably because they did not fit the profile.
I am not saying that an FBI profile isn't helpful but it can not be used to block others out that do not fit the profile.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

>>The main problem with RDI is that it completely defies logic. I mean, a family member is simply not going to leave three pages of handwriting at a capital murder scene. Period.<<


I disagree.
IMO The family thought that that was the only way to explain what had happened to JonBenet. Stage the scene and stage the body.
They took a gamble, and it paid off.

In reality -

-nobody who just killed someone in the house where they live are going to start writing anything down.

-nobody who just comitted murder is going to call the police and report a kidnapping, sure to invite the FBI, willingly, and hours before necessary.

-nobody who just comitted murder and has to stay at the scene is going to leave enough evidence behind to prosecute a capital crime.

 

[tipper]

I saw this (while looking for something else) and thought it might have a place here.


http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/07/08/news/news02.txt
[…]

[Kootenai County Sheriff Rocky] Watson said this crime will likely go a long way toward changing the way criminal profilers look at murders of this kind.

"He's not filling the profile of what we were led to believe from looking at that crime scene," he said.

Watson said the crime scene suggested the killer was somebody who had "personal knowledge and personal anger of the people in that house ... to create a crime scene that angry.

"To be that angry with somebody, they would have to know them, to have done something to them," Watson said. "All of our indications are the family didn't know this man."

[…]

 

[Zman]

I believe the R's were involved somehow simply because of the lies and actions they took,HOWEVER profilers can be wrong. Look at the Wsahington snipers. the FBI profile was of a young white male loner. No one expected TWO black males,one very young, that were questioned by police numerous times in the area and not even looked at for the crimes. They were loitering and acting suspicious, but the police had no interest in them at all probably because they did not fit the profile.
I am not saying that an FBI profile isn't helpful but it can not be used to block others out that do not fit the profile.

".....Profilers can be wrong." Are their people among us who would need to be convinced of that?

 

[duffy]

Profilers can be wrong but they are more often right by a long shot than wrong.

 

[K777angel]

The main problem with RDI is that it completely defies logic. I mean, a family member is simply not going to leave three pages of handwriting at a capital murder scene. Period.

A three page ransom note left at the scene where NO kidnapping took place and the supposed "kidnap" victim is not taken but found DEAD and hidden in the home - most certainly points to a member of the family - someone IN the house that night, having left that note to cover up the crime.

What you SHOULD have said was: An intruder theory completely defies logic.
I mean, an intruder simply is not going to enter a home on Christmas night of all nights, with the intention of kidnapping the child of the home for ransom/money - and then not only FORGET to bring a ransom note with him but take the time and risk to write one in the victim's home and then leave the note but not take the child! Not only not take the child but beat her and kill her right in the home!
What purpose was there in coming then?
Kidnappers for ransom and child molesters do not mix.
One wants money.
One wants sex.
Neither of these two was the true motivation in the crime against JonBenet.

 

[aussiesheila]

This was a familial homicide. The fact that the Ramseys were wealthy and beautiful and well-connected - kept them out of the clinker.

OK K777angel,

you have listed all the facts and then come to the above conclusion.

I would just like to know the answer to one simple question:

IF the Ramseys beat and sexually molested their daughter before killing her and then wrote a ransom note to stage a kidnapping then WHY would they call the police in the early hours the morning after Christmas WHILE THE BODY WAS STILL IN THE HOUSE?????

You can not possibly have a sensible answer to this question because there is none.

The only sensible thing for them to have done after they killed her and wrote the ransom note was to FIRST dump the body somewhere and THEN call the police.

You RDIs go on and on about the Ramseys lying about Burke being awake and Patsy claiming to have gotten dressed in the same clothes she had on the day before and them not behaving 'normally' after the murder and avoiding the police and lawyering up and peering through fingers at police officers and whatever else you can drag up but so far not one of you has ever been able to present a logical argument as to why they called the police before they got rid of the body.

You have to be able to do this before your theory can in any way be considered valid.

 

[BlueCrab]

OK K777angel,

you have listed all the facts and then come to the above conclusion.

I would just like to know the answer to one simple question:

IF the Ramseys beat and sexually molested their daughter before killing her and then wrote a ransom note to stage a kidnapping then WHY would they call the police in the early hours the morning after Christmas WHILE THE BODY WAS STILL IN THE HOUSE?????

You can not possibly have a sensible answer to this question because there is none.

The only sensible thing for them to have done after they killed her and wrote the ransom note was to FIRST dump the body somewhere and THEN call the police.

You RDIs go on and on about the Ramseys lying about Burke being awake and Patsy claiming to have gotten dressed in the same clothes she had on the day before and them not behaving 'normally' after the murder and avoiding the police and lawyering up and peering through fingers at police officers and whatever else you can drag up but so far not one of you has ever been able to present a logical argument as to why they called the police before they got rid of the body.

You have to be able to do this before your theory can in any way be considered valid.

aussiesheila,

Excuse me for butting in, but like many of us on this forum, Angel is of the opinion that BDI and the parents are covering it up -- or a close variation of this theory.

Therefore, one reason the parents didn't dump the body prior to calling the police is simply because THEY didn't kill JonBenet, she is their daughter, and although she is dead they want to preserve a measure of dignity in regard to the body. But they are covering up for another house member who DID kill her.

There are other possibilities why the body wasn't removed from the house, including the light dusting of snow that fell in the wee hours and could have deterred the perpetrator(s) from leaving incriminating footprints in the snow from the house AND BACK AGAIN.

BlueCrab

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

Excuse me for butting in, but like many of us on this forum, Angel is of the opinion that BDI and the parents are covering it up -- or a close variation of this theory.

Therefore, one reason the parents didn't dump the body prior to calling the police is simply because THEY didn't kill JonBenet, she is their daughter, and although she is dead they want to preserve a measure of dignity in regard to the body. But they are covering up for another house member who DID kill her.

There are other possibilities why the body wasn't removed from the house, including the light dusting of snow that fell in the wee hours and could have deterred the perpetrator(s) from leaving incriminating footprints in the snow from the house AND BACK AGAIN.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab, butt in all you like. No problem. I've read your post and still my question in response is:

Why call the police before getting rid of the body?

Your reply still does not answer this.

You aren't suggesting there was any dignity in placing her body, still bloodied and with the instruments of torture still attached, in that dark dirty wine cellar are you?

Also there was no hurry to call the police. They could have kept the death secret within the family for 24 hours at least. That would have left them enough time to clean up the body and take it into the mountains the next night. THEN call the police.

They could have told the police they didn't call them initially because the note said not to and they were afraid for JonBenet's safety, but that since they hadn't heard from the kidnapper as expected, they then decided to call the police.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

A three page ransom note left at the scene where NO kidnapping took place and the supposed "kidnap" victim is not taken but found DEAD and hidden in the home - most certainly points to a member of the family - someone IN the house that night, having left that note to cover up the crime.

JBR vs. the Ransom note:

While JBR is dead, the RN says she's alive.
While JBR is hidden, the RN is in a traffic path.
While JBR's victimization suggests the motive is deviant, the RN stated the motive is money.

Saying that the RN is a lie or bogus is vague to a fault. It is in opposition to JBR's actual state, as though the perp wanted to create a false first impression of the crime.

An actual coverup would have attempted to reconcile all evidence, including JBR. Since the RN and JBR are in opposition, the RN has the appearance of a block or diversion that in fact worked for several hours. Many posters have noted that without the RN, JBR would have been found sooner.

 

[Nehemiah]

Also there was no hurry to call the police. They could have kept the death secret within the family for 24 hours at least. That would have left them enough time to clean up the body and take it into the mountains the next night. THEN call the police.

Aussiesheila, within 24 hours of Christmas Night there would have been more people involved who would have to be questioned...the pilot Archuletta, JAR and Melinda, and Stuart Long (these are the ones we definitely know about; there may have been others once they got to Charlevoix). The Ramseys already had concrete plans after Christmas that included other people and that were traceable. To have waited another day would have implicated them even further, IMO.

I see your point, though, and think it's a good one. I just think that if they are involved in any way, that window of opportunity for the cover up was marginal.

 

[Zman]

A three page ransom note left at the scene where NO kidnapping took place and the supposed "kidnap" victim is not taken but found DEAD and hidden in the home - most certainly points to a member of the family - someone IN the house that night, having left that note to cover up the crime.

1. How does a RN cover up a murdered child in a basement?
2. How does the RN "most certainly point to a member of the family"?
Why do you wish to convince youself of such wrong conclusions?.

What you SHOULD have said was: An intruder theory completely defies logic.
I mean, an intruder simply is not going to enter a home on Christmas night of all nights, with the intention of kidnapping the child of the home for ransom/money - and then not only FORGET to bring a ransom note with him but take the time and risk to write one in the victim's home and then leave the note but not take the child! Not only not take the child but beat her and kill her right in the home!
What purpose was there in coming then?
Kidnappers for ransom and child molesters do not mix.
One wants money.
One wants sex.
Neither of these two was the true motivation in the crime against JonBenet.

Thats right.
Is molestation with a paint brush even a sexual molestation?
Seems more violent to me than sexual.
We should probably try to get rid of the whole pedophila aspect of the crime.
Especillay since there is no evidence of any prior molestation.
While the murderer does not get money he/she wants it known that they are pissed off about money.

 

[Zman]

Profilers can be wrong but they are more often right by a long shot than wrong.

Pofilers are very vague individuals. You can twist their words to mean anything you want. Profilers don't catch criminals. Ever.

 

[Zman]

Zman,

What do you think happened that night?

I think someone who for whatever reason had a incredible hatred of JR left a brutal message of that at the expense of JBR.
I think it was someone who knew him well and maybe even brought help along.
I think they were already in the house when the R's came home or somehow knew how to get in.
I think this person had been in the home prior to that night and maybe even set some things up before hand.
I don't think sex or molestation had anything to do with the crime. Other than as staging to fill the R's with even more guilt and sorrow.
I think in a strange way the RN was left as a calling card of sorts. Explaining why and who to JR.
I think JR may even strongly suspect who did it but could never convince LE to take it seriously because they were to busy focusing on them.

I am throughly convinced that the R's woke up that morning looking forward to a great time in Michigan and a great trip on the BRB.

 

[Toltec]

The Ramsey's had to make the 911 call because they were expected to meet Mike Archuletta at the airport around 7am.

Simply put...they had no time to get "rid" of the body.

On the other hand....after JonBenet's accidental death....no parent would want to "dump" their child's body.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The Ramsey's had to make the 911 call because they were expected to meet Mike Archuletta at the airport around 7am.

Simply put...they had no time to get "rid" of the body.

On the other hand....after JonBenet's accidental death....no parent would want to "dump" their child's body.

IMO the family had to make the 911 call because they knew they absolutely couldn't wait hours and hours for their daughter, as directed by the RN. They wanted to enlist help in any way they could.

The ransom note, garrote, and headbash contradicts any "accidental death."

Are you asserting that an accidental death was covered up by leaving handwritten evidence, and turning it into a capital murder scene?

 

[tipper]

[...].

On the other hand....after JonBenet's accidental death....no parent would want to "dump" their child's body.

.

I would buy that except I think if you are willing to sexually assault your child as part of staging, dumping the body wouldn't be a problem.

Why wouldn't they just drop her off the balcony? Tragic accident but simple to explain

 

[K777angel]

The whole entire reason for that fake 'ransom' note was to DIVERT ATTENTION AWAY from what really happened that night. And it worked. For awhile. Long enough to pollute the crime scene and give John a chance to find the body.
The FBI said that the whole crime scene/note indicated that the perp was faced (after the child died) with the big question: HOW DO I EXPLAIN THIS DEATH? The answer was the note claiming she was kidnapped, and a host of elements within the crime scene/body that were done to JonBenet. Quite possibly even the sexual abuse part. To this day it is unclear whether this was part of what led up to the crime - or part of the staging.
In fact, the FBI stated they did NOT think the sexual abuse was actually part of the crime itself - but more likely part of the staging. I don't know about that. She was wiped down and pants pulled back up. Actions of perp trying to "hide" the abuse. IMO

So...Now, why was the perp (family member) so concerned about EXPLAINING the death of this child? Simple. There were NO obvious wounds upon first glance that gave reason why she lay dead!
No gunshot wounds.
No blood.
No stab wounds.
Nothing.
The blow to her head left absolutely NOTHING visible.
The perp HAD to come up with something VISIBLE. Thus - the cord around the neck and wrists.
Perp thought she was already dead and the pulling of the cord could do no further harm. Perp was wrong.
There was no internal damage done to JonBenet's neck. Some of the crime experts called it a "gentle strangulation" compared to what is typically seen.
Loops around wrists were "loose" and therefore determined to be merely window dressing, not purposeful.

Now, with a "visible" explanation for JonBenet lying dead - perp needed to lay blame on someone else too.
Solution: KIDNAPPED! For money! We are wealthy so that will make sense to the authorities.
Thus - the fake ransom note.

The whole purpose of note and staging was to divert attention away from what really happened. Hoping the authorities would buy it. Even for awhile.
It was better than doing NOTHING.