What Is the Defense Strategy?

[Whome?]

Just to throw this out for discussion:

In Memphis a few years back there was the Mary Winkler trial, in which her attorneys Leslie Ballen and Steve Farese successfully argued that Mary shot her preacher husband in the back due to PTSD symptoms caused by abuse. Here is an article that describes the trial in a nutshell -

http://articles.cnn.com/2007-04-12/...ourth-street-church-matthew-winkler?_s=PM:LAW

She was only convicted of voluntary manslaughter and spent less than a year in jail. Is that really possible here?? In that case Mary herself took the stand and explained her actions and the nature of her marriage prior to the shooting. But of course, Mary did not have the lying issues that Casey does. AZ explained on a prior post here that Casey would not have to take the stand in order for them to float this defense. But I still have a hard time seeing how this could possibly be successful without her testifying.

Just seemed to me to be an interesting case to compare. But when you compare the defendants - a responsible parent & preacher's wife vs. a compulsively lying party girl whose parents were on the verge of having her declared unfit.......you can see where I'm going with this. I think the DT is grasping at straws with this one as well!! Just my :twocents:!!

I remember the Mary Winkler trial very well, and for my money when her atty put "that shoe" on the podium I lost it,it was the smoking gun for my money's worth. That being said, I think that Mary W had an "ATTORNEY" via Steve Farese. This atty knew what he was doing,did not engage in alot of hyperbole and his client took the stand in her own defense. Jose cannot be mentioned in the same sentence as Steve Farese. This atty knew his profession and whether you agree with the verdict or not, I have to tip my hat to Mr Farese,compared to what we have here in this case in Fla. JMHO:twocents:

 

[Solace]

I remember the Mary Winkler trial very well, and for my money when her atty put "that shoe" on the podium I lost it,it was the smoking gun for my money's worth. That being said, I think that Mary W had an "ATTORNEY" via Steve Farese. This atty knew what he was doing,did not engage in alot of hyperbole and his client took the stand in her own defense. Jose cannot be mentioned in the same sentence as Steve Farese. This atty knew his profession and whether you agree with the verdict or not, I have to tip my hat to Mr Farese,compared to what we have here in this case in Fla. JMHO:twocents:

Exactly, we are talking about a baby here whose outline is clear in the stain - so clear you can see a fingernail and hand.

The above case was about a methodical violent sexual abuser - the woman was an inch tall and the husband enormous.

No one wants KC off ALTHOUGH I heard a woman call in to Jane Velez Mitchell, who I can no longer listen to SCREAM - seriously - that is why I do not watch her - anyway, the woman obviously knew nothing about the case except sketchy details, but honestly believed KC was being railroaded.

 

[UESwifey]

It still boggles my mind that this close to game time the defense is still throwing theories against the wall to see what sticks. They are going. To need to pick one, and soon.

They seem to be arguing that ICA didn't do it, couldn't have done it... But if she did it was only because she was abused... Unless GA will admit he did it, and then we'll go with that. It's absolute craziness!

 

[kaRN]

I get a chuckle everytime I see this thread. I think the strategy is in a state of constant flux. The general theme is to discredit everyone and attempt to link them all into the paranoid delusion of a worldwide conspiracy against ICA.
Apparently everyone she ever met or boinked, lied to, is related by DNA to and the media, LE, the SAO, now the judge are all conspiring together to exact their pound of flesh against a woman of such unimaginable beauty and intelligence that we're jealous. Seriously!
HB from the Orlando Sentinel has a ICA fan that copies and pastes the whole unimaginable beauty theme, spams him actually, daily.


Edited to add- Look how close the Caylee butterfly is to being finally free of her cloverheaded killer!!! WooHoo!!

 

[UESwifey]

I guess I have had a personal epiphany on this board. And it has been because I find myself very cautious about making judgments about what other people are feeling. It is not that I feel critical of other people who can - at all - I know that is definitely not what I feel when I read comments in various threads.

But as I bring myself to the edge of that particular cliff - I cannot make myself make the leap. And it is about me. I am one of those weird people who seems incapable of expressing public grief. I've certainly had more than my share of personal losses and tragedies, yet I am the one with the stoic face who calls the police, calls the morgue, does the cleanup, comforts other survivors. That does NOT make me the hero but it is because I have gone to a "different place" and will appear almost normal.

During a particular difficult time a friend said to me, " I sure wish I could be like you, nothing bothers you" and I almost quipped "Gee, could you call my therapist because she thinks I am suicidal."

In private times, away from "the eyes" I am inconsolable and carry grief for what feels like forever. Sorry if this seems too personal.

So while I know some see me as a Cindy supporter - that is not true. I just want to be absolutely sure before I say she is everything she appears to be. To me, words spoken or written are there forever and can't be taken back (from karma).

Hope that answers why I question some of your thoughts. It is not that I am being critical of what you are saying - it is that I want more information as to why you are so sure.

I, for one, always appreciate your posts. It helps someone like me - who gets so caught up in this case emotionally - to see the bigger picture or another point of view. Even if I disagree, it's nice to have your perspective.

 

[stilettos]

I agree. PTSD does not fit with ICAs actions or character flaws. I don't believe it will carry much weight.
I have PTSD from a very traumatic event which I still have a hard time coping with, yet I don't lie, steal or kill.

shivs...I feel ya! Really, I do..I have PTSD from childhood trauma. Did not cause me to lie, steal or kill. I did however, have foster children that had been abused...instead of PTSD, some aquire differing coping skills and differing personality disorders. Some were klepto, anti-social and violent. Some had attachment disorder and would seem loving and bonded and then could cut the person out without a thought. I do not think ICA has PTSD in any way. Too much of a stretch. I do think there is possibly an attachment issue...and NPD. JMO.

 

[logicalgirl]

I, for one, always appreciate your posts. It helps someone like me - who gets so caught up in this case emotionally - to see the bigger picture or another point of view. Even if I disagree, it's nice to have your perspective.

Thank you UESwifey - I appreciate you saying that and please believe I am always expressing my own thoughts and have no expectation at all that everyone or anyone will agree with me. It is always a risk but isn't that the whole point - that we are not a herd of sheep here but individuals with our own points of understanding and our conclusions or lack of conclusions from where we each stand.

Feel free to disagree with me - I won't take it personally but part of the learning curve and my own understanding as we seek as witnesse to these events, Justice for Caylee.

 

[Chanler]

I guess I have had a personal epiphany on this board. And it has been because I find myself very cautious about making judgments about what other people are feeling. It is not that I feel critical of other people who can - at all - I know that is definitely not what I feel when I read comments in various threads.

But as I bring myself to the edge of that particular cliff - I cannot make myself make the leap. And it is about me. I am one of those weird people who seems incapable of expressing public grief. I've certainly had more than my share of personal losses and tragedies, yet I am the one with the stoic face who calls the police, calls the morgue, does the cleanup, comforts other survivors. That does NOT make me the hero but it is because I have gone to a "different place" and will appear almost normal.

During a particular difficult time a friend said to me, " I sure wish I could be like you, nothing bothers you" and I almost quipped "Gee, could you call my therapist because she thinks I am suicidal."

In private times, away from "the eyes" I am inconsolable and carry grief for what feels like forever. Sorry if this seems too personal.

So while I know some see me as a Cindy supporter - that is not true. I just want to be absolutely sure before I say she is everything she appears to be. To me, words spoken or written are there forever and can't be taken back (from karma).

Hope that answers why I question some of your thoughts. It is not that I am being critical of what you are saying - it is that I want more information as to why you are so sure.

Thanks, LocalGirl, for such a candid post. Like you, I process tragedy in public in very muted ways. I was very close to my father, but when he died, I showed no public emotion. However, in the decades since, I think of him every day.

I do believe that sometimes law enforcement pursue innocent people as suspects because they don't show emotion. In the case of Ms. Anthony, however, my sense is that she is a young woman who seems very emotional about most things.

 

[logicalgirl]

Thanks, LocalGirl, for such a candid post. Like you, I process tragedy in public in very muted ways. I was very close to my father, but when he died, I showed no public emotion. However, in the decades since, I think of him every day.

I do believe that sometimes law enforcement pursue innocent people as suspects because they don't show emotion. In the case of Ms. Anthony, however, my sense is that she is a young woman who seems very emotional about most things.

Yes, ICA IMO is an entirely different case. Despite what look to be the DT claims of PTSD, she was certainly able to show emotion when she was not immediately given TL's telephone number and because it was "a waste, a huge waste" that she called when all everyone wanted to talk about was Caylee.

Yes, I understand about your father. When the police came to my door to tell me my beloved older brother was found dead, I said thank you and closed the door, declining the bereavement counsellor, and went to work. I was in such a state of shock I believe I went to have some period of normalcy to process what happened. When I told my boss I was leaving early despite having a busy desk, she objected - until I calmly said my brother died this morning and I have some issues to take care of. That was 10 years ago and I miss him as much today as I did ten years ago.

 

[LolaMoon08]

Thanks, LocalGirl, for such a candid post. Like you, I process tragedy in public in very muted ways. I was very close to my father, but when he died, I showed no public emotion. However, in the decades since, I think of him every day.

I do believe that sometimes law enforcement pursue innocent people as suspects because they don't show emotion. In the case of Ms. Anthony, however, my sense is that she is a young woman who seems very emotional about most things.

BBM - LE pursuing Casey as a suspect had very little to do with her showing no emotion early on. Sure, it may have played a role in her initial arrest, but it was her lying to LE about everything and taking them on a wild goose chase when 31 crucial days had already passed that made LE suspicious.

LE followed up on all the information that Casey had given them in the abduction of Caylee. They followed up on a lot of things that Casey told them nothing about.

I don't think for a moment that LE wanted to believe that Casey murdered Caylee. They wanted to believe that Caylee was abducted and was alive and well some place. It wasn't until some of the forensic evidence was back in that they had no choice but to believe that they were now dealing with a deceased child and that Casey was the #1 suspect... for all the evidence was in the trunk of her car.

LE could only do so much with the information that was given to them... Cindy, George and Lee didn't help by sending them on wild goose chases also and threatening them.

All evidence pointed directly back to Casey Anthony... including what was found at the Suburban Drive location.

I don't believe LE ever wants to believe that someone can be as evil as Casey Anthony. That she could maliciously murder her own baby. When you talk to a lot of detectives that have had to deal with cases of children being murdered or viciously abused, they all say that these are the hardest cases because it is something that you can not even think to imagine someone doing to a child and it stays with them forever. It's a hard job to do and I commend them for doing, imo, an amazing job on this case with the limited cooperation they had with this entire family. They had no choice but to make Casey their #1 suspect after the evidence started pouring in... which had nothing to do with her showing no emotion.

And I think you are very correct when you say that Casey has shown emotion... she has shown hate... disgust... malice... jeaslousy... spitefulness... viciousness... anger... and any negative emotions you can think of when it comes to her murdered baby and the family that has done nothing but supported her and tried to cover up her crime.

 

[logicalgirl]

BBM - LE pursuing Casey as a suspect had very little to do with her showing no emotion early on. Sure, it may have played a role in her initial arrest, but it was her lying to LE about everything and taking them on a wild goose chase when 31 crucial days had already passed that made LE suspicious.

LE followed up on all the information that Casey had given them in the abduction of Caylee. They followed up on a lot of things that Casey told them nothing about.

I don't think for a moment that LE wanted to believe that Casey murdered Caylee. They wanted to believe that Caylee was abducted and was alive and well some place. It wasn't until some of the forensic evidence was back in that they had no choice but to believe that they were now dealing with a deceased child and that Casey was the #1 suspect... for all the evidence was in the trunk of her car.

LE could only do so much with the information that was given to them... Cindy, George and Lee didn't help by sending them on wild goose chases also and threatening them.

All evidence pointed directly back to Casey Anthony... including what was found at the Suburban Drive location.

I don't believe LE ever wants to believe that someone can be as evil as Casey Anthony. That she could maliciously murder her own baby. When you talk to a lot of detectives that have had to deal with cases of children being murdered or viciously abused, they all say that these are the hardest cases because it is something that you can not even think to imagine someone doing to a child and it stays with them forever. It's a hard job to do and I commend them for doing, imo, an amazing job on this case with the limited cooperation they had with this entire family. They had no choice but to make Casey their #1 suspect after the evidence started pouring in... which had nothing to do with her showing no emotion.

And I think you are very correct when you say that Casey has shown emotion... she has shown hate... disgust... malice... jeaslousy... spitefulness... viciousness... anger... and any negative emotions you can think of when it comes to her murdered baby and the family that has done nothing but supported her and tried to cover up her crime.

Thank you LolaMoon08 - I was particularly in awe listening to Yuri Melich as he very carefully went through their actions and thought processes leading up to her arrest.

It seems clear to me the LE did not at first suspect ICA of killing Caylee at all, and considering what we know now, am surprised at how long it took took them to realize she was directly involved. It took lie after lie from ICA for them to :waitasec: and "get it".

 

[LolaMoon08]

Thank you LolaMoon08 - I was particularly in awe listening to Yuri Melich as he very carefully went through their actions and thought processes leading up to her arrest.

It seems clear to me the LE did not at first suspect ICA of killing Caylee at all, and considering what we know now, am surprised at how long it took took them to realize she was directly involved. It took lie after lie from ICA for them to :waitasec: and "get it".

Because they... even for seasoned detectives... don't want to believe these things even though they see it day in and day out.... it's hard. You look at a beautiful baby, Caylee in this case, and you don't want your mind to go there. How could anyone harm an innocent baby? These men have children of their own and can not even imagine doing anything to harm them. It's something that shouldn't happen... mothers (or even fathers) should not be capable of murdering their own children... even though it happens all the time.

None of us understand it.

 

[logicalgirl]

Because they... even for seasoned detectives... don't want to believe these things even though they see it day in and day out.... it's hard. You look at a beautiful baby, Caylee in this case, and you don't want your mind to go there. How could anyone harm an innocent baby? These men have children of their own and can not even imagine doing anything to harm them. It's something that shouldn't happen... mothers (or even fathers) should not be capable of murdering their own children... even though it happens all the time.

None of us understand it.

And a segway back from my O/T posting - apparently some people either are able to detach completely from the emotions of a parent kiliing child and defend that child killer or in the case of Jose - does the death of a child even touch him at all, because I don't see detachment from his client in his defense strategy. He seems unaware most of the time who ICA is charged with killing.

 

[Solace]

Thank you LolaMoon08 - I was particularly in awe listening to Yuri Melich as he very carefully went through their actions and thought processes leading up to her arrest.

It seems clear to me the LE did not at first suspect ICA of killing Caylee at all, and considering what we know now, am surprised at how long it took took them to realize she was directly involved. It took lie after lie from ICA for them to :waitasec: and "get it".

I think Yuri suspected her as soon as he got to the questions and heard the answers he was getting. I think he immediately noticed her demeanor, etc. If yo ulisten to his first interview with her, he is immediately asking her questions re sim car and why she had that but not the phone, etc. and after a year of having this woman watch your child, you don't remember the number? He knows he is dealing with a suspect at that time.

He certainly was not going to say that at the hearing though.

 

[LolaMoon08]

And a segway back from my O/T posting - apparently some people either are able to detach completely from the emotions of a parent kiliing child and defend that child killer or in the case of Jose - does the death of a child even touch him at all, because I don't see detachment from his client in his defense strategy. He seems unaware most of the time who ICA is charged with killing.

I don't know what Casey has disclosed to Jose, so I can not even begin to understand why he has shown no compassion for Caylee as the victim in this case. I would think that if he really believed someone else was responsible or if he really thought it was a terrible accident... he would have some compassion for Caylee. All I can think about is that Jose sees Caylee as being in his way... that Caylee is what is keeping him from winning this case. Blaming Caylee for Casey's predicament... hence his predicament. Poor Caylee!

I think JB should really learn to muster up some sympathy for Caylee during this trial because if he shows no sympathy for his innocent clients murdered child... it doesn't look very good.

 

[Chanler]

BBM - LE pursuing Casey as a suspect had very little to do with her showing no emotion early on. Sure, it may have played a role in her initial arrest, but it was her lying to LE about everything and taking them on a wild goose chase when 31 crucial days had already passed that made LE suspicious.

LE followed up on all the information that Casey had given them in the abduction of Caylee. They followed up on a lot of things that Casey told them nothing about.

I don't think for a moment that LE wanted to believe that Casey murdered Caylee. They wanted to believe that Caylee was abducted and was alive and well some place. It wasn't until some of the forensic evidence was back in that they had no choice but to believe that they were now dealing with a deceased child and that Casey was the #1 suspect... for all the evidence was in the trunk of her car.

LE could only do so much with the information that was given to them... Cindy, George and Lee didn't help by sending them on wild goose chases also and threatening them.

All evidence pointed directly back to Casey Anthony... including what was found at the Suburban Drive location.

I don't believe LE ever wants to believe that someone can be as evil as Casey Anthony. That she could maliciously murder her own baby. When you talk to a lot of detectives that have had to deal with cases of children being murdered or viciously abused, they all say that these are the hardest cases because it is something that you can not even think to imagine someone doing to a child and it stays with them forever. It's a hard job to do and I commend them for doing, imo, an amazing job on this case with the limited cooperation they had with this entire family. They had no choice but to make Casey their #1 suspect after the evidence started pouring in... which had nothing to do with her showing no emotion.

And I think you are very correct when you say that Casey has shown emotion... she has shown hate... disgust... malice... jeaslousy... spitefulness... viciousness... anger... and any negative emotions you can think of when it comes to her murdered baby and the family that has done nothing but supported her and tried to cover up her crime.

LolaMoon, thanks for your detailed note. My comments definitely weren't about the the early police response in this case; the police certainly had ample reason to focus on her from the very beginning.

 

[MissJames]

Staying a bit OT,but I'll swing it back around.......To LogicalGirl and all,
After watching a Geraldo Rivera piece that Tulessa put up ,I got caught up in Ca's deposition from the ZG civil suit. There are glimpses of sadness in CA's eyes when discussing the last time she saw Caylee.Just sheer world weary sadness. She is so full of anger ,you almost miss it,but by part 11 on Youtube she begins wear down and it's there.

So back on topic,I'm now wondering if George and Cindy are privy to the DT' strategy,or if they THINK they are privy ,but the DT is actually moving in another direction.Thoughts?

 

[Solace]

Staying a bit OT,but I'll swing it back around.......To LogicalGirl and all,
After watching a Geraldo Rivera piece that Tulessa put up ,I got caught up in Ca's deposition from the ZG civil suit. There are glimpses of sadness in CA's eyes when discussing the last time she saw Caylee.Just sheer world weary sadness. She is so full of anger ,you almost miss it,but by part 11 on Youtube she begins wear down and it's there.

So back on topic,I'm now wondering if George and Cindy are privy to the DT' strategy,or if they THINK they are privy ,but the DT is actually moving in another direction.Thoughts?

They have so little to work with and after the recent Frye hearings, it is looking bad.

I think the defense will use sexual abuse in the penalty phase. I think there will be a penalty phase.

And I think when she gets Life Without Parole, the defense will say - this is a win.

 

[comomx3]

I thought it was very interesting at the end of the trial last week when JB and his female assistant with the short gray hair and glasses (can't remember her name) were discussing with the judge about witnesses that had yet to be named and the gray haired lady said something about this NOT being a "incapacitated defense" (or whatever that term is when a person is pleading insanity) and you can clearly see ICA shake her head no.

Could it be they are working on an insanity defense through the "backdoor" so to speak because their guilty client is refusing to plead that.

I don't know how to insert the video here but it's near the very end. Before all of the lawyers go up to the judge.

 

[logicalgirl]

I thought it was very interesting at the end of the trial last week when JB and his female assistant with the short gray hair and glasses (can't remember her name) were discussing with the judge about witnesses that had yet to be named and the gray haired lady said something about this NOT being a "incapacitated defense" (or whatever that term is when a person is pleading insanity) and you can clearly see ICA shake her head no.

Could it be they are working on an insanity defense through the "backdoor" so to speak because their guilty client is refusing to plead that.

I don't know how to insert the video here but it's near the very end. Before all of the lawyers go up to the judge.

LOL :floorlaugh: That "female assistant" was Ann Finnell, a lawyer who will be handling the penalty/phase and she is death penalty qualified. She has more lawyering experience in her pinkie than Baez has in his whole career.