WHAT Is The Ramsey/Karr Connection?

[PagingDrDetect]

Originally Posted by SuperDave
Wendy Murphy thinks there might be a connection, doc.

Considering that Wood said (at first) after the Karr news broke that the Ramsey's themselves gave his name to LE years ago as a possible suspect and Karr's previous attorney says that LE mentioned they were looking into him back in 2001, yeah, there seems to be a connection. Why JR has been all over the news claiming he never heard of the guy says something, especially when his own attorney has directly contradicted him.

Originally Posted by JBean
I thought that the Ramseys just forwarded any and all emails or info to LE. So I just deduced they gave the Karr information to LE originally, without even considering it themselves. I would guess they got all kinds of information from nutcases and just passed it on without really reviewing it. Probably some nasty stuff came their way.IMO, that is how the info would have gone from Ramsey to LE without Ramsey being aware of Karr in particular.

No, this was a purposeful thing LE was doing as part of their "mystery" killer probe into Karr once Tracey alerted LE. And I seriously doubt that they would conduct such a probe so stupidly. I also sersiously doubt that they would be so insensitive to let the possible killer of the Ramsey's child contact them directly.

Originally Posted by julianne
If you have spoken or had dealings with people that convinced you that they have seen firsthand kiddie pornographic photos of JonBenet, I trust you have notified LE in those people's cities, as well as the Boulder DA??? After all, child is not only disgusting, it is ILLEGAL, and with this being such a high profile case, I am sure they were extremely interested in any information you could provide regarding these people. Have you informed them of this? If so, what was their response? If you haven't informed them, WHY NOT??????

Edited to Add: I don't mean to sound confrontational AT ALL. It's just that I have never heard somebody say they were convinced that people they have spoken to have SEEN pics of JonBenet. To me, that is STUNNING, and since these people gave you information that led you to believe that they have viewed these photos, you are obligated to report this, morally & legally.

I didn't, my boss at the time did. I can't say very much about where or how I came by this information because it might reveal too much about who I am personally (which I won't do on the internet), but more importantly, I think there's a client privilege factor there that I'm not certain how I fit into even though I don't work there anymore. There was probably an attorney/client privilege issue for my boss, but maybe not... I really don't know. I asked my boss about it, and he said he took care of it (meaning he alerted who would have needed to know), and told me he couldn't discuss it any further with anyone, and not to ever bring it up again. To be clear, the two people we heard this from were technically not his clients, but clients of the firm, and technically it was information we shouldn't have had to begin with... but one can't close one's ears voluntarily.

I think I may have already said too much about that, but I'll let it stand. I left that job about a month later (and I had only been there a few months anyway) since I'd gotten a much better one outside of the city and never saw or heard from that old boss again. Besides, I HATED criminal defense.

Originally Posted by narlacat
This is the first I've heard of kiddie pics of JBR getting around the net.
You sound like you know people who are into kiddie .

Like Julianne says, have you reported this??

See above.

To be VERY clear, these were people that I would have given anything NOT to have been in even the same state with (and I felt that way about most of the clients). There was really no doubt that criminal defense was not for me, and I learned that within the first week of working there... however, I also needed a paycheck. Unfortunately, doing criminal defense forces you to have to deal with the absolute DREGS of society. As far as I'm concerned, I would have been more than happy to lock up every single client that walked through the door that I had the distinct displeasure of being forced to deal with and the keys encased in cement and dropped into the center of whatever is the most shark infested waters on the planet.

Originally Posted by 13th Juror
Yes, "no idea what-so-ever" .. that would definitely be my opinion. Back to the drawing board!
I'm not going to reprint or even address any portion of the sick & perverted scenarios that you've presented here.

Really Sick Stuff, PagingDrDirect!

Any more sick than the theory that the Ramsey's garroted and blugeoned their own child? Any more sick than some perverted intruder breaking into the Ramsey's house and garroting and bludeoning a strange child? Any more sick than the recent SNUFF FILM theory? EVERYTHING about this case is sick! Everything we talk about this case is sick. That fact that we're all so interested in it is actually pretty sick. Certainly, it's not anywhere NEAR as sick as what happened to that poor innocent child. Not even in the same realm.

Originally Posted by 13th Juror
PagingDrDirect - if you have "a verifiable source for your stated rumor" then you should post it rather than spread garbage & innuendo that has "no foundation" or basis in fact.

There's PLENTY of unsubstantiated rumor that has no basis in fact all over this site. Did you miss all the unsubstantiated rumor that has no basis in fact spread about by the media since day one of this case? What about all the unsubstantiated rumor that has no basis in fact spouted by Smit who should have known better since he was actually supposed to be trying to solve the case instead of kissing the hind ends of the Ramsey's?

Incidently, has it every crossed your mind how the pedo ring theory first came about? Think on that some.

Originally Posted by Trino
This is NOT a picture but info about a woman Boulder LE interviewed about parties. I think this is where the rumor originated.
Here's another article, perhaps a better explanation.
http://www.bouldernews.com/extra/ra...99/25arams.html

Wow! Thanks for that link. I hadn't heard about this before. I had heard about pedo ring theories but didn't know about anyone that came forward about it.

I have a hard time believing a pedo ring theory mostly because the physical evidence doesn't even support one intruder much less more than that. And I admit that it's so completely gross I don't want to believe it.

Originally Posted by Maybe So
I agree with you I don't believe any story that the Ramseys were allowing their child to be molested or used for kiddy .

I believe that forums are for discussion and speculation but speculation should at least have some basis in facts.

Edited to Add: You have to agree that IF there were pics of JonBenet on the internet, they most certainly wouldv'e been out in the public eye by now.

See above. Brooke Sheilds' mother had no problem whatsoever about using her 10 year old daughter kiddie . Nude photos, especially suggestively posed ones, of children IS kiddie . Besides, there IS some basis in fact. JBR was repeatedly molested... ALL the experts said so based on the autopsy results. SOMEBODY was molesting that poor child!

As for them being spread all over the tabloids... think about that. HOW? Karr being in possession of child photos didn't work out too well for him, did it?

Originally Posted by blond1
This article in crimelibrary has a similar take:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorio...ar/index_1.html And I am leaning toward this idea.
Or, maybe Karr has some hard copy photos in his possession that weren't circulated on the internet -- maybe he was part of the ped ring and he DID see what happened -- maybe he was the one (or one of a couple people) chosen by the photographer or pedophile group to return the body to the house.

I'm still not seeing this as some kind of crime by a pedo ring... the physical evidence just doesn't support it. Unless... whoever was involved were known to the Ramsey's, considered friends, and cleared. But I just have a really hard time believing the Ramsey's were involved in a pedo ring. What my theory suggests is something more along the lines of the Brooke Shields nude photos that her mother had a photographer take of her when she was 10... nude or soft (nude but suggestively posed). I'm not saying that the Ramsey's would have ALLOWED their daughter to be molested, more like they left her alone with the photographer and he did it, and they suspected with good reason but allowed it to continue. Or maybe they thought it was just (God, I HATE to use the word "just"!) inappropriate touching or "bouncing" on the knee type of thing. ICK. Obviously, the Ramsey's had a very different idea of what they considered appropriate for their six year old daughter than most people... who knows how far that may have extended. One of the biggest reasons the media pounced on the Ramsey's is because of the inappropriateness people felt about how she was dressed in those pagents. It was the very FIRST thing that made me raise my eyebrows about the parents.

Those Brooke Shields photos were taken in 1975 and publically came to light after she became a teenage child star. Good thing for Brooke THAT photographer wasn't a creepy child molester. Her mother defended her allowing to have those photos taken loudly. Considering what the Ramsey's did to their daughter dressing her up like a tart, I wouldn't find it surprising that they wouldn't have had a problem going further than that. There's video footage of JBR performing in pagents doing the booty bounce dance move, which I wouldn't like to have seen her doing if she was a teenager, and slipping out of a jacket and displaying her bare back like a stripper. TOTALLY inappropriate for a SIX year old CHILD.

Originally Posted by 2luvmy
Couldn't there be pronagraphic pictures of JonBenet out there? Seriously, with all the photo imaging software out here and JB being in the public eye with the pageants, there could quite possbily be photos out there that pedos have doctored even if the Ramseys didn't have anything to do with child . I can see a pedo coming across something like this and being obsessed with JB.

I thought about that, but I doubt it. I got this information in around '97 or so. I'd have to find a copy of an old resume to be sure exactly when. In any case, it was during the time of the big media campaign about the case. I don't know how sophisticated photo imaging was then. It could be, but considering who the people were that I heard this from, I doubt it. They were both emensely disgusting pedo PIGS, PIGS, PIGS. (Sorry, I'm not yelling at you, but the memory is just getting me steamed). They sounded pretty sophisticated about child . Incidently, they both imagined they were perfectly normal upstanding members of the community with absolutely no idea and no apparent understanding of how incredibly GROSS and offensive and WRONG they were.

Wooo, sorry, I'm burning under the color about these swine, so I better shut up before I really let fly.
Thanks, you-know-who, for reminding me about this thread. Seems like I can never get passed the first handful on the first page. Does anyone even GET to the ones that slipped to page 2?

 

[absolut_alexis]

I don't especially understand how short and direct questions lead to long and winding answers.

If you are an attorney, you need to review the ABA standards and report things yourself accordingly. If you are not an attorney there, then the "client privilege" factor doesn't apply to you, and you need to report it. There is NO profession, including doctors, priests, and attorneys, that is wholly without ways of reporting abuse. This is all part of the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment and Adoption Act Amendments of 1996, and every state is obligated by that act because they get monies for it. If you know about child , you must report it. You can report stuff anonymously, anyway, and you don't really know what your boss reported or how accurate he was. So call already.

I didn't, my boss at the time did. I can't say very much about where or how I came by this information because it might reveal too much about who I am personally (which I won't do on the internet), but more importantly, I think there's a client privilege factor there that I'm not certain how I fit into even though I don't work there anymore. There was probably an attorney/client privilege issue for my boss, but maybe not... I really don't know. I asked my boss about it, and he said he took care of it (meaning he alerted who would have needed to know), and told me he couldn't discuss it any further with anyone, and not to ever bring it up again. To be clear, the two people we heard this from were technically not his clients, but clients of the firm, and technically it was information we shouldn't have had to begin with... but one can't close one's ears voluntarily.

I think I may have already said too much about that, but I'll let it stand. I left that job about a month later (and I had only been there a few months anyway) since I'd gotten a much better one outside of the city and never saw or heard from that old boss again. Besides, I HATED criminal defense.

To be VERY clear, these were people that I would have given anything NOT to have been in even the same state with (and I felt that way about most of the clients). There was really no doubt that criminal defense was not for me, and I learned that within the first week of working there... however, I also needed a paycheck. Unfortunately, doing criminal defense forces you to have to deal with the absolute DREGS of society. As far as I'm concerned, I would have been more than happy to lock up every single client that walked through the door that I had the distinct displeasure of being forced to deal with and the keys encased in cement and dropped into the center of whatever is the most shark infested waters on the planet.

 

[julianne]

Exactly, absolut_alexis!

PagingDrDetect--you posted that you spoke with people who convinced you that they had seen pornographic pictures of JonBenet. You say you didn't report it. You keep saying that criminal defense is not for you and inferring that you are an attorney, but if you were an attorney you would know that you were legally obligated to report this. You also make it a point to say how it upsets you so, that they are pigs, and that you get really mad thinking about....it couldn't have upset THAT much to fail in reporting this.

I don't have dealings with creepy pedophile kiddie freaks (not to my knowledge anyway), HOWEVER, if someone convinced me that they viewed pornographic pictures of ANY CHILD, rest assured I'd be taking mental notes and RUNNING to LE immediately after. No question. You should've also.

So, I can only surmise 2 things here:

1. You posted this to "jazz up" your posting in an effort to make your theory more believable and that nobody every REALLY convinced you of this. In which case, shame on you.
OR
2. You really DID have dealings with sickos who convinced you of this, and by your own admission, made the decision to NOT notify LE. In which case, shame on you.

 

[narlacat]

Julianne
DrDetect said his boss reported it.
Just saying in case you missed that bit.
I guess he didn't say he double checked that but he says his boss told him never to talk about it again.

 

[BloodshotEye]

I am still working on establishing the possible "first contact" between the Ramseys and Karr.

Taking a closer look at the birthdates of Karr's three boys, to see if one of them was born in 1990, and further, if they delivered at home or at the same hospital as the Ramseys (Ramsey's lived in Dunwoody, Georgia - and on August 6, 1990, gave birth to JBR in Northside Hospital, Atlanta Georgia).

It has been reported that JMKarr and Lara had three boys:
- John Mark Karr II was born in 1990,
- Damon Karr was born in 1992, and
- Seven Exodus Karr was born in 1993.

If anyone has run across the name of the hospital associated with the first born's birth (1990), please post it. Not having much luck myself. It's a long shot connection, but I thought I would give it a try. thanks for the help.

 

[tybee204]

I have read that all of the Karr children were born at home.

 

[BloodshotEye]

Thanks Tybee.

I am back to wondering when it was that JMKarr first saw JBR.

 

[BloodshotEye]

Wanting to identify the date and city/state in which the following evnets were held. Some are obvious, others not. Wanted to think about who could have attended these events/pageants, and what newspaper coverage they might have had. Wondering if JBR was on JMK's radar prior to coverage about her death. I had the impression, that she competed in an event that was held in Atlanta. But I may be mistaken.

Colorado
1. The American Kids (performance group) - Dec. 1996 in Southwest Plaza Mall. (Not a pageant but a childrens public performance group).
2. Little Miss Merry Christmas - Dec. 1996 (date?)
3. Little Miss Colorado - May 1996
4. All-Star Kids State Pageant - April 1996
5. Little Miss Colorado Sunburst - October 1995


Michigan
1. Little Miss Charlevoix Michigan - July 4, 1994


Host City Not Known
1. National Tiny Miss Beauty
2. America's Royal Miss

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

I have also wondered about the inconsistencies of whether the Ramseys did or did not know of JMK, either personally or by name alone. I would like to see this detail cleared up - did they know him, or not? And if so, from when/what? That would help.

However, I don't believe the Ramseys were setting up JBR in any type of . I guess it is possible, but I can't fathom that option (yet).

 

[ketel0ne]

Did the Ramseys still own a home in GA. in 96?

 

[RiverRat]

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7398&page=1&pp=12

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Apology if some of this has been posted...

I was attempting to narrow in on the time and place, when JMKarr might have first seen JBR. As the Ramseys' and Karr past addresses might suggest, it looks like was in 1991. If JMKarr is involved in this homicide (not yet convinced that he is), it would be my guess that, that Karr possibly crossed paths with the baby/toddler JBR, very early on.

Conyers, GA - 1965 (approx.) to 1977 (approx.)
Karr grew up, and lived her until the age of 12, when he went to live with grand parents in Hamilton, Alabama.

Hamilton, Alabama - 1977 (approx)[/B]
Living with grandparents. Graduated from Hamilton High School in 1984.

City Unknown, presumed to be Hamilton, AL - 1984
Karr (age 19) married Quientana Shotts (age 14)

***Gwinnett County - 1989 ***
Karr (age 24) married Lara Knutson (age 16)
Note: This is where I see the Ramseys and Karr as being geographically close to one another. Ramsey's residence in the town of Dunwoody, appears to be very close to the Gwinnett area. You can do a yahoo map search for Sandy Springs,GA, and get pretty close to these two areas.

Note: Their twins girls, Angel and Innocence, died in 1989. New Cooper Cemetary is referenced in reports, and is located outside Hamilton, Alabama.

Dunwoody, Georgia - 1990
JBR is born, on August 6, 1990, in Northside Hospital, Atlanta Georgia.
Dunwoody Georgia appears to be in DeKalb County. Reports have stated that this is approx. 30 miles north east of Conyers (where Karr grew up). However, it may be more significant, that this appears to be very close to Gwinnett County, and perhaps where the PR and newborn JBR crossed paths with JMKarr.

Boulder Colorado - 1991
The Ramseys moved to Colorado.

Hamilton, Alabama - "mid 90's (according to Karr's brother)
Karr was reported to have been a sub teacher at Hamilton school, and was fired after only 15 days. It is not clear, if the Marion County court documents listed below, are a report of this same incident.

Marion County, Alabama - September 1996
An Alabama school district dismissed Karr from his job as a sub teacher. Reference: court Documents, reporting statements by Marion County School District, and Lara Knutson's statements.
Note: Reports are not quite clear, about Karr's residence after this firing. It is not clear if he moved again.

Lake Charlevoix, Michigan - Years unknown
The Ramsey's had a lake front home, in this city. I am not clear during what interval of time, they had this home. They probably contined to use it with regularity, as JonBennet won the "Little Miss Charlevoix Michigan" pageant.
Some people have posted that they believe JMKarr may have worked at this house. If you find any address confirmation, please post.


Boulder Colorado - December 26, 1996
JBR's homicide.


Feel free to correct or amend this sketch. If anyone is aware of an Atlanta area pagent in which JBR competed or won, that would be significant.

I'm sorry, but I live in the Atlanta area, and I can't help but roll on the floor contorted with laughter when you I read something like "Dunwoody appears to be close to Gwinnett County". Suburban Atlanta is nothing but a loose conglomeration of shopping malls, fast food joints, mega-huge apartment complexes and strip shooping center sprawl built around the tiny nuclei of what ever once quaint coutnry towns 30 years ago or less. Traffic is horrible and most people who live ITP (Inside the Perimeter) rarely venture outside it and those who live OTP (Outisde the Perimeter) rarely venture in save for work and sporting events.

 

[BloodshotEye]

Thanks BillyGoatG. it helps to have someone who can interpret the geography. How many miles would you say, is Gwinnett from Dunwoody? A few minutes, or an hour?
Thanks again

 

[UKGuy]

JMK may have first seen JonBenet either at a pageant or in some magazine article covering a pageant?

Just as interesting is the non-public evidence that JMK is supposed to have related to Tracy.

Does this mean Tracy is privy to sealed information, how come, or is there something else at play?

e.g. JMK, if he killed JonBenet, may have taken a picture, of the crime scene and sent that to Tracey, its alleged pictures were emailed.

Since Tracy is linked closely with the Ramseys, I think what he knows must have come from there, and either JMK knows this independently or Tracey has dropped hints in this area, whilst fishing for clues?

.

 

[BloodshotEye]

I have also wondered about the inconsistencies of whether the Ramseys did or did not know of JMK, either personally or by name alone. I would like to see this detail cleared up - did they know him, or not? And if so, from when/what? That would help.

However, I don't believe the Ramseys were setting up JBR in any type of . I guess it is possible, but I can't fathom that option (yet).

DeputyD: I agree with you.

I personally don't believe the Ramseys were involved such a thing. Jmo.
However, there is a -load of people that weaved and bobbed around this family, that did indeed, have some sick fascination with little girls. Take a look at the thread down there, that questions - was there a snuff film. I will shamelessly post a link, to some of the facts behind how I think this rumor (and the one about ) was started. Think it started with this perv photographer, who was charged with the posession/distribution of crime cene photo(s) of JBR - in sites.

I posted at about 10:30am
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42218&page=2
Edit: I screwed up the link. trying again.

 

[Anita Richman]

JMK may have first seen JonBenet either at a pageant or in some magazine article covering a pageant?

Just as interesting is the non-public evidence that JMK is supposed to have related to Tracy.

Does this mean Tracy is privy to sealed information, how come, or is there something else at play?

e.g. JMK, if he killed JonBenet, may have taken a picture, of the crime scene and sent that to Tracey, its alleged pictures were emailed.

Since Tracy is linked closely with the Ramseys, I think what he knows must have come from there, and either JMK knows this independently or Tracey has dropped hints in this area, whilst fishing for clues?

.

Hi UK Guy. It has been speculated that one of the investigators was very admanant (sp?) that the Ramseys could not have killed their own daughter. (After all, John Ramsey "swore to God" that he didn't do it...the investigator took that as gospel.) This particular investigator was privvy to the "secret details" of the investigation; he also became the star of Michael Tracy's documentaries. (The speculation about that is that this cop passed on the super secret details to Professor Tracy.) If that is all true, it is conceivable that M. Tracy could have passed off those details in e-mails with JM Karr. (I hope that investigators get ALL of the correspondence between the two--not just the e-mails that M. Tracy chose to share with them.)

 

[Buzz Mills]

Hi UK Guy. It has been speculated that one of the investigators was very admanant (sp?) that the Ramseys could not have killed their own daughter. (After all, John Ramsey "swore to God" that he didn't do it...the investigator took that as gospel.) This particular investigator was privvy to the "secret details" of the investigation; he also became the star of Michael Tracy's documentaries. (The speculation about that is that this cop passed on the super secret details to Professor Tracy.) If that is all true, it is conceivable that M. Tracy could have passed off those details in e-mails with JM Karr. (I hope that investigators get ALL of the correspondence between the two--not just the e-mails that M. Tracy chose to share with them.)

Let's hope so Anita, because this is shaping up to convict a possibly innocent individual, who is willingly admitting guilt, on somewhat questionable evidence that was possibly provided by a questionable individual (Tracey) who has a vested interest in seeing Karr convicted. Personally I don't think Karr did it, however that may not prevent him from being convicted of this crime.

What is the name of the investigator who possibly provided inside information to Tracey??

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

DeputyD: I agree with you.

I personally don't believe the Ramseys were involved such a thing. Jmo.
However, there is a -load of people that weaved and bobbed around this family, that did indeed, have some sick fascination with little girls. Take a look at the thread down there, that questions - was there a snuff film. I will shamelessly post a link, to some of the facts behind how I think this rumor (and the one about ) was started. Think it started with this perv photographer, who was charged with the posession/distribution of crime cene photo(s) of JBR - in sites.

I posted at about 10:30am
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42218&page=2
Edit: I screwed up the link. trying again.

Thanks. I will check that link out later this evening, if I've got time. May have to take a shower afterwards, eh?

 

[Old Broad]

The twin daughters of Karr were born and died in 1989, JonBenet was born in 1990. Not sure just when in 89 the twins were born but I'm wondering if somewhere if Karr's path crossed with JonBenet he would be thinking that if his daughters had lived they would be just like JonBenet and this is how they would look and act now.

OB

 

[Toltec]

Were the Ramseys living in Dunwoody when JonBenet was born? They did have extensive renovations done IN EVERY HOME they owned....which would include Dunwoody residence.

Interesting little aside...EVERY HOME they owned was robbed!

I am highly suspicious of John Ramseys threats to leave the Country. If JMK does admit that he did know John and Patsy Ramsey....Johns got some 'splainin to do.

edited to add that in no way do I buy this "farming out" of JonBenet! Get real folks and stick to the murder part of this crime!