WHAT Is The Ramsey/Karr Connection?

[Zelda]

I agree with what PagingDrDetect writes in the first entry ofn this thread.
It is the same conclusion I have come to but I find it so bizzare that I cannot believe it happened.

The Ramseys didn't need the money so why promote the kiddy angle?
And, if they knew JMK and he was let into the house by invitation to take photos of their six year old daughter then I wonder why. It is improbable but possible. Oscam's rule -- after investigation all other scenarios the impropable should be considered.

Look at the recent crimes that fit Oscam's rule -- in the Scott Peterson case Laci's family couldn't believe he would kill his wife. The same holds true for the Lori Hacking case and the Kristan Rossum case. In the beginning no one suspected that those closest to the victim committed the crime.

I never completely believed that the Ramseys murdered their child. But it is probable that they could have some connection with the killer and her death was an accident with the Ramseys covering up what really happened.

One other point, JMK lived in Atlanta when the Ramseys lived there. However JBR was a year old when they moved to Boulder. It's hard to believe that JMK would fall in love with an infant.

And the Boulder house was remolded, but it is a Tudor style house, not Victorian.



I still find this scenario to be improbable but, maybe...

 

[BloodshotEye]

Toltec: Every house was robbed? Man, what are the odds of that? Weird.
Yes, it was reported that the Ramseys lived in Dunwoody, when JBR was born. I forgot to locate the hospital on yahoo maps, to see exactly where it was located.

Zelda: I would have echoed your disbelief that a person could be "interested" in babies. That is, until I read JMKarr's resume, where he seemed to get very specific about "bathing the baby, etc." This is just too weird to put in a man's nanny/tutor resume. I think Karr did indeed, like the thought of "bathing" babies. Whether or not he did, is good question.

There was an arrest made, just this week, of a man who brutally assulted an 18-month old baby. The article was pretty graphic, but I don't think it is appropriate to repeat it on this forum. (I think there are some people who troll these forums, hoping to read something salacious.) Baby went into a coma and died. I truly did not think a man would be capable of doing this. Makes me think there is a big world of f-ing pervs out there, trolling to make a connection with fellow pervs.

 

[Paladin]

I think it's a possibility that like many others, Karr has become somewhat obsessed with this case. Many people really want to "solve" it. I don't know what to think about this guy, and whether or not he is the perpetrator, but do you think it's possible he wasn't involved, and somehow came across the missing piece of the puzzle and admitted to the crime so he could be put in direct contact with the DA? I know what you're probably thinking, I'm giving this guy way too much credit. Going through the improper channels might cause his theories or discoveries to be pushed to the side, especially if the Team Ramsey is calling the shots. Maybe he wanted to go right to the source what what he has, if anything.

 

[aspidistra]

I don't agree that they let Karr in that night, or that there was any or even photography connection, but this quote has to be explained:

JonBenet's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, gave police information about Karr before he was identified as a suspect, their attorney said Wednesday. She would not say how the couple knew Karr.

I saw that too when it came out. As you say, the media is silent about that now. It must be addressed and pronto!

I assumed when first reading that statement last week, that the police had done their brief examination of him along with everyone else on a list provided by the Ramseys. And he proved to have an alibi they believed, or they ruled him out because of his winning, meek, super intelligent personality.

I think it is clear that they knew who Karr was. Even if he was an obscure satellite person in their lives such as the brother of an acquaintance...if his presence in Boulder and his knowledge of the house is to be explained, he had to hang around them enough to know they were going to that party on the 25th (they probably chatted about it on the party he attended at their house on the 23rd).

Another vital thing for authorities is to round up ALL photos taken at both Xmas parties. In searching last night I came across one actual photo but it was just the children around the tree (9 children). But in an old forum, from 2003, there were discussions of photos people had seen showing various mystery men at the party including some "friends of Fleet White". Only the photos were not online. It's a long shot that Karr would be in any photo but it's a possibility.

Various news accounts of the Ramsey party at the time say there were 100 people attending, or 50 people attending. We know Santa Bill was there handing out presents. We know it was bustling and convivial. JBR had her hair upswept and a dark velvet dress, in that photo of the children around the tree. Pam Paugh said yesterday it is very possible that Karr was at one of the Ramsey's large parties. The Ramseys did not police who was allowed to enter. They felt anyone was welcome There would have been a lot of drinking, laughing, milling around and good will. A stranger or semi acquaintance would have been welcomed, then probably forgotten years later.

 

[narlacat]

The 'friends of FW' were investigated and cleared.

The photo's from the W's Christmas party were never released.

 

[aspidistra]

The 'friends of FW' were investigated and cleared.

The photo's from the W's Christmas part were never released.

I know the friends of Fleet were cleared, but in the old forums there was a discussion that some of the unknown men in the photo had not been identified as known friends of Fleet White. Here we are speculating that Karr might have dropped in on the Fleet White party rather than spending the whole 5 hrs waiting at the Ramsey's house. That is not necessarily viable, except for the Jaguar seen outside the house both that day and on the 23rd at the Ramsey's. (now that we know Karr once drove a Jaguar; we also have to learn whether he drove it in Dec. 1996). These are surely being investigated now for possible links to Karr being in town.

The photos from the White party may not have been released but some photos of the Ramsey party were on the internet. At this moment though I can only find the one of the children (I think it is on the candy rose site). Where some photos of a party exist, more were surely taken.

 

[Judy2291]

What is the chance that JMK worked as a nanny when JB was an infant? If not for the Ramsey's, perhap a neighbor, a relative, the church nursery?

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Thanks BillyGoatG. it helps to have someone who can interpret the geography. How many miles would you say, is Gwinnett from Dunwoody? A few minutes, or an hour?
Thanks again

Gwinnett isn't a town. It's a county. One of the biggest--if not the biggest--in the state. It's comprised of numerous suburban communities that have over the last 30 years pretty much run into one another due to some seriously ugly sprawl. There are several major communities within Gwinnett. Here's the population iof some of them in thousands (bear in mind none of the 100s of thousands of illegal Mexicans that live in Gwinnett are included)
Norcross 9.2
Duluth 23.6
Suwanee 10.5
Lawrenceville 28.3 (the county seat)
Lilburn 11.3
Dacula 4.3
Sugar Hill 13.8
Buford 10.8

Where the Ramseys lived was in Dunwoody, which is technically in North Fulton County and is actually unincorporated. It's population is 36K
Other North Fulton County communites are
Sandy Springs 93.0
Roswell 85.9
Alpharetta 40.1

The traffic arteries between N. Fulton & Gwinnett are amongst the worst in the metro area. Depending on the time of day it can take you upwards of 3 hours to go 30 miles. On a good day it will take at least a hour to get from Dunwoody to Lawrenceville, the county seat of Gwinnett.

 

[dolly1]

Wendy H. says Karr told her his brother worked for JR. I haven't heard anything in response to this. Did the brother do work on the Ramsey's house? One brother is saying he couldn't have done it and other can't be located. Which of his brothers is he talking about?

 

[Shelayne]

That is not necessarily viable, except for the Jaguar seen outside the house both that day and on the 23rd at the Ramsey's. (now that we know Karr once drove a Jaguar; we also have to learn whether he drove it in Dec. 1996). These are surely being investigated now for possible links to Karr being in town.

I just read an interview online with a young woman who used to attend school where Karr would substitute teach. She said the girls were scared of him because he would try to get them alone, like recess or after school. She said that when she saw HIS BLACK JAGUAR in the parking lot, she would get really scared.

She is now 19 years old.

Hmmmmm. It didn't say how old she was at the time, but makes me go hmmmmmm.

 

[stonewall]

The Karr family is the key to finding out the facts. They may lie to protect him or themselves, but the brother either worked for Ramsey or he didn't and it can be proved or disproved if they bother to check it out.

I say start with the brother, and for a psychological profile, get busy interviewing the mother, father and ex wives.

I am not real impressed with the Karr family's statements so far. These people are SO positive JMK could not have traveled to Colorado during that Christmas but these are the same people shocked and dismayed to learn he has been traveling all over the world the past 5 years. If JMK could find a way to travel to France, Honduras and Thailand without his family knowing anything about it why do we find it so absurb he could end up in Colorado undetected?

 

[Texana]

I am not real impressed with the Karr family's statements so far. These people are SO positive JMK could not have traveled to Colorado during that Christmas but these are the same people shocked and dismayed to learn he has been traveling all over the world the past 5 years. If JMK could find a way to travel to France, Honduras and Thailand without his family knowing anything about it why do we find it so absurb he could end up in Colorado undetected?

Exactly!

 

[southerngirl]

Maybe JK told Lara (after spending Xmas morning with her and the kids) that he was driving to Atlanta to spend time with his father and brothers. Maybe he drove to the airport and hopped on a plane for Boulder instead. The family in Atlanta thought he was spending the remainder of the holiday with Lara. Fairly easily done, and no one would be the wiser. I don't know the time to fly to Colorada and back, but I think JK could accomplish this deed ( including hiding in the Ramsey's house and killing JB) in less than 24 hours.

Nate and Wex were too quick to defend him. Apparently JK hasn't even spoken to them in 5 years, and they thought he may be dead, yet Nate says, "It would have been a family scandal if John hadn't been with his family at Xmas."

 

[magpie]

Maybe JK told Lara (after spending Xmas morning with her and the kids) that he was driving to Atlanta to spend time with his father and brothers. Maybe he drove to the airport and hopped on a plane for Boulder instead. The family in Atlanta thought he was spending the remainder of the holiday with Lara. Fairly easily done, and no one would be the wiser. I don't know the time to fly to Colorada and back, but I think JK could accomplish this deed ( including hiding in the Ramsey's house and killing JB) in less than 24 hours.

Nate and Wex were too quick to defend him. Apparently JK hasn't even spoken to them in 5 years, and they thought he may be dead, yet Nate says, "It would have been a family scandal if John hadn't been with his family at Xmas."

I think that could have been accomplished also. He wouldn't be the first so-called family man to sneak off.

I wonder if airlines have records that go back that far though? Credit card records? How far do they go back? Unless he paid in cash.

 

[ketel0ne]

One would think it was a scandal to the half brother and father that his wife divorced him over possession of child charges and had his visits to his children supervised as part of his visitation rights.

Also, many affluent homeowners don't necessarily know all the people who "work" for them in their homes. Often they will enter an agreement with a bonded, licensed and insured general contractor who employes sub-contractors to do the work. Part of the logical reason for this, BTW, is very simple: if you do it this way, any accidents or mishaps by workers in your home will be covered first under the GC's insurance and not your homeowner's policy. The other reason is the general contractor acts as the "foreman" to insure the work is completed thereby freeing the homeowner from "managing" the workers themselves. This can be true of interior decorating as well as other home remodeling and painting types of jobs. Something possibly to keep in mind when looking for the Ramsey-Karr connection.

 

[southerngirl]

I think that could have been accomplished also. He wouldn't be the first so-called family man to sneak off.

I wonder if airlines have records that go back that far though? Credit card records? How far do they go back? Unless he paid in cash.

Those are excellent questions that I don't know the answer to. He probably flew under a different name. Airline regulations were very different a decade ago. And maybe he did pay in cash. His family said he couldn't have afforded MARTA (public transportation in Atlanta), much less an airplane ticket. But this man obviously had the means somehow, judging by his sports cars and worldwide travels...

I think he had suppressed his desires for little girls for a long time, and wanted to make his fantasies come true. It is so sick to even type this, but maybe as a Christmas present for himself?

 

[RiverRat]

So, my link to jameson's child surfing confession is not enough of a connection yet?

 

[RiverRat]

jameson
Member since 5-8-02
08-06-06, 03:49 PM (EST)

2. "RE: THE ELECTRONIC TRAIL"
In response to message #1

A few years ago I had a computer crash and I had to start over - - whole new computer.
But I fear what might have happened if someone decided to take the OLD computer and judge me based on what was on it.

I had searched child sites looking for images of JonBenet and Ariana and other children related to Ramsey. I even saved a few images to share them with LE and investigators.

Done in the interest of justice, it was really a nasty bit of work, let me tell you!

But I looked, I make no apology. If it could help catch a killer - - - I make no apology."

 

[Camper]

This is something that has been baffling me. Ramsey attorneys have said several times that info about Karr was given to LE before he was ever identified as a suspect, yet JR has continually stated that he has no idea who Karr is. Both Karr and the Ramsey attorneys have repeatedly refused to say how the Ramsey's and Karr were connected/how they knew each other or knew of each other.

This blatent inconsistancy has been going unnoticed by everyone in the media. WHY is the media ignoring this issue? I even read in one article where in one paragraph JR says he doesn't know Karr, and in the next paragraph the attorneys say it was the Ramsey's themselves who gave Karr's identity to LE as a possible suspect. HUH???

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4190797
Asked whether he knew the suspect, he told 9News that "to my knowledge, no, I didn't," but stressed that he didn't yet know enough and that the justice system should be allowed to run its course.

Family attorney L. Lin Wood said the Ramseys had previously passed authorities information about Karr, but declined to elaborate.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/16/MNGT1KJSBQ19.DTL
JonBenet's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, gave police information about Karr before he was identified as a suspect, their attorney said Wednesday. She would not say how the couple knew Karr.

I've also noticed that since JR has been running off at the mouth to anyone who will listen that he has no idea who this guy Karr is, the attorneys have suddenly gone silent in saying that it was the Ramsey's who had originally given his identity to LE. What gives?

Is is possible that Karr did kill JBR, that one or the other or both of the Ramsey's let him into the house that night and be alone with JBR for some reason, and Karr killed her in the course of what ever it was he was there to do (which turned out to be something the Ramsey's had no intention of him doing), and they covered up as best they could to conseal whatever mischief Karr's connection with JBR was?

I'm thinking that perhaps they allowed this guy on many occasions to take nudie photos of JBR or even soft , and on this particular night Karr killed her. I'm wondering if there was the possibility that the Ramsey's and Karr were connected for some time to make a bundle by secretly using JBR as the "star" of kiddie soft (and maybe worse than that), and that the Ramsey's had no idea that he was capable of torturing and killing their daughter until it was too late. But given the fact of what they were involved in with the kiddie , tried to cover-up her death as best they could so they wouldn't be found out that they put their own daughter into the situation that killed her themselves.

Patsy was obsessed about farming JBR out like a commodity with a camera almost constantly on her.

The Ramsey's had no problem tarting her up like a mini Vegas showgirl publically and were even proud of it... how far of a stretch to farm her out for nudie photos or soft ?

They probably knew that she was being molested as so many experts have agreed, and were doing their damndest to cover that up. Potty problems in a child that age is a very frequent sign that they are being molested, and it could be that the Ramsey's suspected that's why she was having that problem, why they were sensative about it, and why they went overboard in trying to cover it up even going to a pediatrician that didn't imagine that molestation could be the cause of JBR's potty problems.

This could also explain JR's inexplicable statement when the body was found ("I'm sorry, I'm so sorry"), Patsy's saying that she felt guilty and why they were both so nervous about taking polygraphs.

JR knew to go directly to the basement room where the body of JBR lay as soon as LE told him to search the house because he knew where the body was. PR didn't budge off the sofa when FW raced up the stairs screaming for someone to call an ambulance which brought both Mrs. White and Mrs. "wife of other neighbor" (the name escapes me at the moment) and the detective racing toward the stairs... PR knew JBR was in the basement and was not at all shocked or surprised as she knew when JR went down to the basement what would be found.

JR could have purposely carried the body upstairs when he found it to make sure that any of his DNA or hair or fibers that may be found on the body could be explained away.

In an interview with Barbara Walters, PR said that when JBR was laid on the floor under the Christmas tree she lay down beside her and pressed her own face the JRB's... thereby explaining away any of her DNA or hair or fibers found on the body. PR also says in the interview that JR carried the body upstairs and placed it under the tree, but everyone else says that he placed the body in the foyer, and the detective picked it up and placed it near the tree.

It seems evident that a cover up involving JBR's body only attempted to cover up any evidence of molestation. Apparently, there is evidence that shows JBR's "southern region" was cleaned up, and what about those giant panties? There seemed to be a lot of dressing and undressing going on involving JBR's body, but no attempt to cover up how she was killed.

I've been hearing for years that there are kiddie photos of JBR on the internet, but no possible way am I going to test that theory out by looking for any. Some of the sources I've heard this from are from people who I'm convinced have actually seen some.

Clearly, the DA did not want the Ramsey's implicated in this case, but I don't think he would have been willing to do that if one or both of them murdered JBR... I think he was trying to cover up it getting out publically that the Ramsey's were pimping out their daughter for kiddie , and was therefore willing to thwart the investigation and botch the grand jury proceedings. He was willing to let the killer off in order to help the Ramsey's cover up the kiddie connection. He knew that letting Karr off wouldn't let a killer loose in his jurisdiction because Karr lived in Alabama... let Alabama have him.

A kiddie connection could be that "secret" info that "only the killer would know"... except JR would also know. I think that's why he is blabbing to all and sundry that he has no idea who Karr is. This way, if Karr implicates him about the kiddie , he can claim he knew nothing and lay all the blame on his conveniently dead wife. I find it significant that the investigation for Karr came only at the time of Patsy's death... now JR can lay the blame on someone who lived in the house was related to JBR and was there at the time of the murder who is no longer able to defend herself. Tracey, who is clearly a Ramsey fan, was corresponding with Karr for 4 years but only alerts police around the time of PR's death. Could JR been convincing him to wait before alerting the police until he knew that Patsy was about to die so he could have a scapegoat that couldn't defend herself?

Or am I just barking up a whole forest full of trees with this and have no idea what I'm talking about?

--->>>Hmmm, you left out this tidbit from my thought basket, JR could be feeling major guilt and opening up the can of worms that has TRUTH in it - willing to let the chips fall where they may. JR wants justice he said, and just let the system work.

To that I say O.K.

WHAT IF IF IF the activity JMK became involved in in California, included some of the 'discounted truth' by the crazy nut case lady from CA. She came forward early on in the case about a pedo ring that flew by private plane at holiday time to molest children etc., she even included FW's father as a part of 'IT'.

I have not read further into your thread YET, later, interesting thoughts.

The world in which you and I live has turned into a cesspool of illiterate and dumbheaded activities. Anything is possible imop.

.

 

[magpie]

Those are excellent questions that I don't know the answer to. He probably flew under a different name. Airline regulations were very different a decade ago. And maybe he did pay in cash. His family said he couldn't have afforded MARTA (public transportation in Atlanta), much less an airplane ticket. But this man obviously had the means somehow, judging by his sports cars and worldwide travels...

I think he had suppressed his desires for a little girls for a long time, and wanted to make his fantasies come true. It is so sick to even type this, but maybe as a Christmas present for himself?

Yeah, he could have flown under a different name back then, all you had to do was hand them your ticket and board the plane. I also wonder where he gets his money. I know money doesn't come that easy to most people, certainly not me. I've hardly been out of the state of Texas, not that I want to leave Texas. Sad to think she could have meant so little to someone, or so much - in a very sick way.