What Shirt Was JB Wearing When She Was Killed?

[UKGuy]

UK, I know I'm not Ames but I have an opinion I thought to share while we wait for Ames to reply...

IMHO, the relevance of that turtleneck is what it represented and that was yet another rejection in a long line of rejections from JBR (the my twin doll for one!!!).

UK, its believed by some experts that JBR was strangled prior to the head bash and garrote, what are the odds that the turtleneck was the first weapon used? That would make it extremely relevant wouldnt you say????

Agatha_C,
I do not discount this. If PR was molesting JonBenet, then for me it simply fits more parts of the jigsaw together.

.

 

[UKGuy]

@bold
Very interesting!
I always had doubts re JB being killed in the basement.
I've never seen a crime scene like this,such a crime and no blood anywhere,except a few drops.
Would have been helpful in establishing where exactly she was killed.
Did LE ever test if any of the rooms in the house were cleaned up?

madeleine,
No need to be confused. Lookup dumpsite in a search engine, and you will find one feature used to distinguish a dumpsite from a primary crime-scene is the existence of blood, skin, footprints, e.g. the decedents, weapons, etc etc. Usually its disorganized, a scene of disarray, with obvious forensic artifacts scattered about.

Now look at the wine-cellar, it is relatively messy, but not disorganized, then consider JonBenet: she has been completely redressed, wiped down, wrapped in a white blanket, and placed on the floor, not flung as some intruder might do, so to escape quicker!

So JonBenet may have been killed upstairs with the basement simply being used for staging and enacting the Abduction Scenario?


.

 

[UKGuy]

Right! Why would someone wash a stain out of a costume, that is never going to be worn again....and soak it on the night before leaving for a long trip? That made no sense to me at all. Patsy had way, WAY too many things to worry about...like packing, etc....than to worry about a little stain in a Christmas dance costume, that JB would never wear again, because the next christmas, it would have been too small. Why take so much time on that stupid stain? Weird...

Ames,
Its not weird if you place it in the context of cleaning up forensic evidence.

Consider someone wiped JonBenet down with some skin cleanser and someone washed the turtleneck?

Could this be the same person, e.g. Patsy, desperate to stage a crime-scene which at one point included JonBenet wearing the turtleneck, but when John reckons, an Abduction Scenario is more appropriate, the turtleneck is removed and JonBenet is dressed in the white gap top?

.

 

[UKGuy]

But that doesn't explain why Patsy intially said...that she put JB to bed wearing the red turtleneck, and then changed her story..and it was the red turtleneck that was found balled up on the bathroom counter. (In my opinion, the bathroom counter seems more like a place that Patsy would have put clothes...(remember, she is the one that told Haney that she put her clothes on the side of the tub, if she was planning on wearing them again the next day)...I believe that if JB had of taken off that turtleneck...for one, she would have had to have had help...considering how tight those things are. A six year old wouldn't have been able to remove it by herself...and for another thing, JB ...imo..would have thrown it on the floor (like MY daughter does).

Ames,

But that doesn't explain why Patsy intially said...that she put JB to bed/b] wearing the red turtleneck, and then changed her story..

Because this was Patsy's first attempt at staging JonBenet's death, and why I think she was probably killed upstairs?

When interviewed she slipped up and told us what she had initially decided JonBenet was wearing. She may have come to an agreement with JonBenet, you can wear the white gap top to the White's, if you wear the turtleneck for our vacation flight, after all Patsy was still wearing the same clothes from the night before. So JonBenet went to bed wearing the turtleneck?

The turtleneck plays a part somewhere, otherwise Patsy would not bother washing it!

A six year old wouldn't have been able to remove it by herself...and for another thing, JB ...imo..would have thrown it on the floor (like MY daughter does).

Totally Agree!

 

[DeeDee249]

If she had been strangled by something else first, even something soft like a scarf or the turtleneck, her neck would have bruises or marks indicating that. Her throat shows only the furrows made by the cord.

 

[UKGuy]

If she had been strangled by something else first, even something soft like a scarf or the turtleneck, her neck would have bruises or marks indicating that. Her throat shows only the furrows made by the cord.

DeeDee249,
You know full well that JonBenet has bruising on the side of her neck near the front.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
You know full well that JonBenet has bruising on the side of her neck near the front.

.

If you are talking about the "parchment-like red triangular abrasion", that is not a bruise in the technical sense. That large mark is common in some strangulation victims and is the result of blood pooling under the skin at a pressure point. In this case, though the knot was tied at the back, the "handle" could have been used to twist the cord, and the pressure point would be towards the front, not the back. The ligature furrows are circumferential, meaning they go all the way around, suggesting the cord, after it was knotted, was actually wound a few times around her neck, possibly using the handle.
The other "bruises" are petechial hemorrhages, and not technically bruises either.
I know of no other true bruises, not do I notice any in photos. If you have other information or a photo that I have not seen, please post it.

 

[Agatha_C]

If she had been strangled by something else first, even something soft like a scarf or the turtleneck, her neck would have bruises or marks indicating that. Her throat shows only the furrows made by the cord.

DeeDee,

You know that I have nothing but mad respect for you. I also consider you WS very own expert on all things pertaining to the autopsy and ME report.... So please know, I am not doubting anything that you say, but and its a big but..... I am beginning to question the single strangulation theory....

On one of Tricia's radio programs, one of the guests (I forget which female it was) mentioned a prior strangulation and it got me to thinking. So Ive done some research and this is what Ive learned...

Soft strangulation can kill and leave little to no outward signs. In fact, in cases of sexual assault and/or domestic violence, the victims should be asked if strangulation took place as there may not be physical signs (bruising or discoloration) and yet they could have very serious problems from the strangulation. Im including some links that Ive found interesting....

This link is a pdf file and covers 2 soft strangulation's. Case 1 is an adult and case 2 is a child... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC502125/pdf/jclinpath00220-0111.pdf

Asphyxia and drowning: an atlas: By Jay Dix, Michael A. Graham, Randy Hanzlick..... http://books.google.com/books?id=6Z...ation&source=bl&ots=x60EdRX_3G&sig=aexzhEwaPD

Strangulation Injuries Another pdf...... http://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/_WMS/publications/wmj/issues/wmj_v102n3/funk.pdf


Death by Strangulation by Dr. Dean Hawley..... http://www.markwynn.com/dv/Death by Strangulation - Dr. Dean Hawley.pdf

 

[Agatha_C]

Im making a correction to this section of my last post. Its in bold/red....


Soft strangulation can kill and leave little to no outward signs. In fact, in cases of sexual assault and/or domestic violence, the victims that survive should be asked if strangulation took place as there may not be physical signs (bruising or discoloration) and yet they could have very serious problems from the strangulation. Im including some links that Ive found interesting....


Just didnt want there to be any confusion... Sorry!:what:

 

[UKGuy]

If you are talking about the "parchment-like red triangular abrasion", that is not a bruise in the technical sense. That large mark is common in some strangulation victims and is the result of blood pooling under the skin at a pressure point. In this case, though the knot was tied at the back, the "handle" could have been used to twist the cord, and the pressure point would be towards the front, not the back. The ligature furrows are circumferential, meaning they go all the way around, suggesting the cord, after it was knotted, was actually wound a few times around her neck, possibly using the handle.
The other "bruises" are petechial hemorrhages, and not technically bruises either.
I know of no other true bruises, not do I notice any in photos. If you have other information or a photo that I have not seen, please post it.

DeeDee249,

That large mark is common in some strangulation victims and is the result of blood pooling under the skin at a pressure point. In this case, though the knot was tied at the back, the "handle" could have been used to twist the cord, and the pressure point would be towards the front, not the back.

But may not have been. In other words an alternative interpretation can be placed on JonBenet's neck bruising, particularly when you have to qualify your interpretation with a pressure point towards the front despite the knotting being at the back etc.

One alternative explanation is that JonBenet was wearing the red turtleneck and that Patsy or John twisted it at the front partially strangling JonBenet?


.

 

[Agatha_C]

UK, I think its very possible that JBR was strangled with the "Turtleneck" while wearing it. I think it was found wet and balled up for any number of reasons. Could be that stretched or misshapen material was easier to hide if soaked and balled up. Maybe some sort of body fluid/s were on it or maybe all of the above. The messed pants found on the ground could also be from JBR defecating in them while being strangled...

Was there a struggle? Is that why the trophies and tiaras were on the ground as if knocked or thrown there? Is that what happened to the toilet paper holder and the stool that was out of place? Is this why Patsy shut down and became small when questioned about the bathroom and the things seen in crime scene photos (red turtleneck and tiaras? It has sure looked like the scene of a struggle to me....

Marks of Violence
Asphyxiation
Asphyxiation is the inability to breathe and so lack oxygen due to some obstruction of the respiratory system. Strangulation, smothering, and drowning are all common examples of this. Asphyxiation will bring about certain noticeable effects, including low levels of oxygen and high levels of carbon dioxide, and blood-staining around the mouth and nose. The skin may take on a purplish colour, a condition known as cyanosis. Tiny spots of haemorrhaging called petechiae may form due to the bursting of small blood vessels. Asphyxiation can often cause the victim to vomit, which will collect in the mouth and throat. Strangulation may result in telltale marks left on the neck of the victim, whether bruising from hands or ligature marks. A smothered victim may be found with fibres in their mouth and throat. Victims of strangulation may also bear a broken hyoid bone, a horseshoe-shaped bone situated in the neck. Drowning, another common form of asphyxia, can be determined by water in the air passage and lungs. The water inside victims of drowning may be traced back to particular bodies of water based on the debris and diatoms (microscopic algae) found in them. Some forms of asphyxia may occur unintentionally, such as choking on food and accidental drowning. ........ http://www.forensicsciencecentral.co.uk/pathology.shtml

Focusing on the visible signs of strangulation, we found that police officers reported no visible
injuries in 62 percent of the cases. Minor visible injuries, such as redness or scratch marks, were
reported in 22 percent of the cases, but often injuries were too minor to photograph. Significant
visible injuries, such as red marks, bruises or rope burns, were found in 16 percent of the cases.
While these injuries were significant enough to photograph, the majority of those photographs
were unusable because they were blurry or washed out from the flash. This suggested a need for
police officer training in close-up photography. Victims sought medical attention in only 3
percent of the cases, primarily due to persistent pain, voice changes, or trouble swallowing.
Focusing on the symptoms reported by victims and documented in police reports, we found
victims often reported pain to their throats or hoarseness. Other victims reported nausea, loss of
consciousness, hyperventilation, defecation, uncontrollable shaking, or loss of memory. In one
case, the victim had a miscarriage within 24 hours of being strangled........ http://www.ncdsv.org/images/strangulation_article.pdf

 

[Tadpole12]

If she had been strangled by something else first, even something soft like a scarf or the turtleneck, her neck would have bruises or marks indicating that. Her throat shows only the furrows made by the cord.

Dee Dee,
Could the same be said if she was strangled using a choke hold?

 

[Agatha_C]

I should also add that I dont think the first strangulation killed JBR. I do however think, it played a big part in the two events that followed and ultimately killed the poor baby.

 

[UKGuy]

UK, I think its very possible that JBR was strangled with the "Turtleneck" while wearing it. I think it was found wet and balled up for any number of reasons. Could be that stretched or misshapen material was easier to hide if soaked and balled up. Maybe some sort of body fluid/s were on it or maybe all of the above. The messed pants found on the ground could also be from JBR defecating in them while being strangled...

Was there a struggle? Is that why the trophies and tiaras were on the ground as if knocked or thrown there? Is that what happened to the toilet paper holder and the stool that was out of place? Is this why Patsy shut down and became small when questioned about the bathroom and the things seen in crime scene photos (red turtleneck and tiaras? It has sure looked like the scene of a struggle to me....

Marks of Violence
Asphyxiation
Asphyxiation is the inability to breathe and so lack oxygen due to some obstruction of the respiratory system. Strangulation, smothering, and drowning are all common examples of this. Asphyxiation will bring about certain noticeable effects, including low levels of oxygen and high levels of carbon dioxide, and blood-staining around the mouth and nose. The skin may take on a purplish colour, a condition known as cyanosis. Tiny spots of haemorrhaging called petechiae may form due to the bursting of small blood vessels. Asphyxiation can often cause the victim to vomit, which will collect in the mouth and throat. Strangulation may result in telltale marks left on the neck of the victim, whether bruising from hands or ligature marks. A smothered victim may be found with fibres in their mouth and throat. Victims of strangulation may also bear a broken hyoid bone, a horseshoe-shaped bone situated in the neck. Drowning, another common form of asphyxia, can be determined by water in the air passage and lungs. The water inside victims of drowning may be traced back to particular bodies of water based on the debris and diatoms (microscopic algae) found in them. Some forms of asphyxia may occur unintentionally, such as choking on food and accidental drowning. ........ http://www.forensicsciencecentral.co.uk/pathology.shtml

Focusing on the visible signs of strangulation, we found that police officers reported no visible
injuries in 62 percent of the cases. Minor visible injuries, such as redness or scratch marks, were
reported in 22 percent of the cases, but often injuries were too minor to photograph. Significant
visible injuries, such as red marks, bruises or rope burns, were found in 16 percent of the cases.
While these injuries were significant enough to photograph, the majority of those photographs
were unusable because they were blurry or washed out from the flash. This suggested a need for
police officer training in close-up photography. Victims sought medical attention in only 3
percent of the cases, primarily due to persistent pain, voice changes, or trouble swallowing.
Focusing on the symptoms reported by victims and documented in police reports, we found
victims often reported pain to their throats or hoarseness. Other victims reported nausea, loss of
consciousness, hyperventilation, defecation, uncontrollable shaking, or loss of memory. In one
case, the victim had a miscarriage within 24 hours of being strangled........ http://www.ncdsv.org/images/strangulation_article.pdf

Agatha_C,

Was there a struggle? Is that why the trophies and tiaras were on the ground as if knocked or thrown there? Is that what happened to the toilet paper holder and the stool that was out of place? Is this why Patsy shut down and became small when questioned about the bathroom and the things seen in crime scene photos (red turtleneck and tiaras? It has sure looked like the scene of a struggle to me....

All sounds cogent to me. Explains the mess and evidence. JonBenet is partially strangled by say the turtleneck, looses conciousness, falls to the ground and whacks her head, or hits something on the way down. Eventually the R's realize they cannot resuscitate her, so start down the cleanup and staging path, leading to the basement and the garrote to mask what occurred upstairs?

It might be something along these lines happened, and there was no sexual assault, that has been added as staging to, whilst JonBenet lay comatose?

Maybe someone did assault JonBenet chronically but not that night, and maybe it was not the parents, how about Burke or one of his friends or even JAR, with his seduction kit found in the basement?

Are we all the victims of crime scene so well staged we believe it all, is this why JR seems so happy, he reads the forums, checks out the theories and laughs aloud, thinking just how we planned it?



.

 

[DeeDee249]

Dee Dee,
Could the same be said if she was strangled using a choke hold?

Anything that compressed the neck enough to cause strangulation would leave a mark.
If a soft article were used, as part of EA for example, there would probably be tightening and release, which is part if the EA activity and that may not leave a mark if it wasn't tight long enough to make one.
If I consider that the red turtleneck may have been twisted around her neck, I still can't make the connection as to why it ended up balled up on the sink. Unless there was blood or vomit on it. It is still not clear whether the red turtleneck was WET and balled up or dry. Had it been washed? Was it soaking in the sink? I don't think that was the case, I think it was found dry and balled up ON the sink counter.
We KNOW for a FACT that JB wore the white shirt she was found in to the White's that day. If Patsy changed her into the red turtleneck and longjohns, and the crime took place when she was wearing the red shirt, some blood/vomit could be on there,
However, I really don't think so. There was a stain of vomit/mucus on her cheek and some was on the sleeve of the white shirt she was found in. The position of that stain is consistent with the fluid staining her cheek, and likely seeped out while she lay on her back head cocked to the right. This seepage could have happened after death as well, because fluids can seep after death.

There is also the mystery of blood spots on the nightie. We really don't know how they got there either. We just have no way of knowing with certainty what she wore when she was assaulted and killed. We only know for a fact what he wore to the party (verified by photos) and what she was wearing when she was found.

 

[Agatha_C]

Not always are there visible signs of strangulation found....

According to a study by the San Diego City Attorney’s Office of 300
attempted strangulation cases and strangulation murders in 1995:

• 10% of violent deaths were by strangulation.
• 90% of these deaths were domestic violence related.
• Females were strangled six times more than males.
• 99% of the suspects were men.
• Police officers reported no visible injuries or signs of strangulation in 62%
of the cases studied.
• Significant visible signs of strangulation, such as rope burns, bruises, or
red marks, were found in only 16% of the cases.

http://www.mcbw.org/files/u1/femicidestrangulation.pdf

 

[UKGuy]

DeeDee249,
You know full well that JonBenet has bruising on the side of her neck near the front.

.

DeeDee249
To back this up here the pictues:

Note beneath the circumferential nylon cord there is obvious bruising which may or may not be related to the circumferentail asphyxiation?

To confirm the above speculation consider JonBenet's neck from behind:

Note there are not two circumferential furrows that correspond with the upper and lower bruising on JonBenet's neck.

So whilst you can offer many interpretations for the evidence, one of which is that the circumferential furrow, may represent staging?

The lower bruising might have resulted from JonBenet having her collar constricted, also if you look carefully at the upper picture, you can see JonBenet has a contusion on the side of her face. Is this consistent with a simple EA theory, e.g pain is administered?

 

[DeeDee249]

Yeah, that's what I thought you meant. The ligature furrows are NOT bruises in the technical sense, like a bruise from a punch, fall or other injury. I am very familiar with that photo, and nothing there suggested to me or the coroner that she had been strangled with anything else other than that ligature.

 

[icedtea4me]

I think a choice of "Other" would have been appropriate for this poll.

 

[txsvicki]

I voted white because patsy had on the same clothes and hair and makeup. Jonbenet probably nev er changed from the party clothes either.